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Misc 450mg effexor + 100mg Tramadol = Serotonin syndrome ?

TDO90

Bluelighter
Joined
Jan 7, 2018
Messages
46
Hello, let's say someone is taking 450mg Effexor and 30mg of Vyvanse for severe depression, anxiety and ADD and it's not helping. Would taking 100MG of Tramadol when depression is deadly intolerable cause serotonin syndrome or greatly increase the chances of it?
Thanks :)
 
Yes, serotonin syndrome will be very likely. You should not take tramadol while on effexor and/or vyvanse
 
The only think you get from adding tramadol, OP, is maybe some opiate buzz and increased seizure risk. You should get all the energy you need from your vyvanse, and boring ol' anti-depressant action from venlafaxine.

Tramadol is too shady with seizures to use anywhere near other stimulants, so don't do it. Call your doc if the venlafaxine isn't working.
 
Thanks for the the answers :D Not sure if the risk is worth it but Tramadol used to help my depression greatly before Effexor but I would only take it in emergency. My depression got to the point where I can't even do simple things and plus I have suicidal ideation now. I tried contacting my psychiatrist in the past but he just told me to wait until my scheduled appointment :(
I'll see him in about 10 days.
 
If your having suicidal ideation I strongly urge you to go to the emergency room. I know it sucks but when i had suicidal ideation it went from a idea to reality and the only reason i didnt die was chance i fell facing up spent weeks in icu tubes everywhere had to learn to walk. They can put you inpatient and stabilize you on meds. Was it a great time no. But, what is currently happening clearly and working. The way your feeling not normal and after puting me on new meds lithium , effexor, adderall i havent had suicidal thoughts in years
 
Isnt tramadol structurally similar to venlafaxine.

I believe Venlafaxine is a SNRI and tramadol has SSRI properties...the combination could lead to serotonin syndrome if abused...I think if both were kept at therapeutic levels the the risk would probably be minimal though.
 
Venlafaxine really just inhibits serotonin reuptake. You have to take large doses for it to also affect norepinephrine reuptake.

Tramadol's non-opiate action does the same for serotonin and I think a whole lot more to norepinephrine.

And amphetamine does the same with norepinephrine but adds dopamine reuptake to the mix.

I don't think taking tramadol with moderate dosage venlafaxine is more dangerous than the tramadol alone, but wouldn't serve any purpose unless you're going after that opioid buzz. I'm sure it's too dangerous to take with Vyvanse. Just about any Rx opioid will probably be safer at small doses if all you want is that feeling.

Vyvanse and Effexor have all your monoamines covered. You could probably replace them with a single tricyclic antidepressant if you talk with a psychiatrist, but you could expect some side effects.
 
Venlafaxine really just inhibits serotonin reuptake. You have to take large doses for it to also affect norepinephrine reuptake.

Tramadol's non-opiate action does the same for serotonin and I think a whole lot more to norepinephrine.

And amphetamine does the same with norepinephrine but adds dopamine reuptake to the mix.

I don't think taking tramadol with moderate dosage venlafaxine is more dangerous than the tramadol alone, but wouldn't serve any purpose unless you're going after that opioid buzz. I'm sure it's too dangerous to take with Vyvanse. Just about any Rx opioid will probably be safer at small doses if all you want is that feeling.

Vyvanse and Effexor have all your monoamines covered. You could probably replace them with a single tricyclic antidepressant if you talk with a psychiatrist, but you could expect some side effects.

Venlafaxine is definitely an SNRI. Like most SNRIs, it more potently inhibits serotonin reuptake, but it's noradrenergic activity is definitely part of it's MOA.

Also, taking tramadol and effexor is definitely way more dangerous than taking tramadol alone. Like d1nach said, they're structurally very similar, and venlafaxine is pretty much the same thing as tramadol but without the mu-opioid activity. Also, that's not really a moderate dose. 450mg of effexor is a pretty high dose that's already going to put OP at a substantially increased risk of having a seizures, and the vyvanse further increases that risk.

Tramadol + effexor is not a safe combination.
 
There are no safe combinations, and as I said, OP should not mix these.

I've reviewed some things, learned some new things, but can't really walk back that statement my colleague bolded. Instead I'd say Vyvanse and tramadol are worse than I thought and please don't take those two together (that and amphetamine isn't a reuptake inhibitor for dopamine and norepi, mostly just a releasing agent).

If anyone wants to explain in detail why they would be at worst no more dangerous than an extra dose of either, I'm happy to listen.

But OP, that's not your worry, don't take the tramadol.
 
It's probably not worse than an extra dose of either, but taking them together is worse than either one alone, and 450 mg is already pushing it
 
Isnt tramadol structurally similar to venlafaxine.

Exactly. You could *almost* argue that Venlafaxine is basically Tramadol without the opioid action.

And because they are so similar, it is no wonder they compete for the same enzyme, CYP2D6.
When tramadol gets metabolized, it loses its effect on serotonin, and becomes a more effective opioid. Conversely, when people who are already on antidepressants keep taking tramadol for anti-anxiety purposes, they are going to have to increase their dose more quickly, because they're not getting the full opioid effect. Which also means they are going to reach a dangerous dose level more quickly, because they're getting a stronger SRI effect... and with 450 mg of venlafaxine a day, even 100 mg of tramadol already puts you at a significant risk.

Please note that this is not a "may cause unwanted side-effects"-situation. This is a "WILL cause serotonin syndrome"-situation if you keep using tramadol for that purpose.

If you need something to calm you down during periods of extreme anxiety, get a script for a benzodiazepine like alprazolam ("xanax") or lorazepam ("ativan"). These carry their own risks, sure, but they won't have you writhing on the floor in your own vomit and feces, babbling deliriously while your brain is cooked under severe hyperthermia due to serotonin syndrome 8(
 
It's very much dose dependent.."safe" and "unsafe" are relative terms..

If OP is on Venlafaxine and took a single 50mg Tramadol once then he's probably be OK...however abuse it and take large amounts and probably not....and let's face it...he isn't going to be taking just a single tablet once is he?
 
There are no safe combinations, and as I said, OP should not mix these.

I've reviewed some things, learned some new things, but can't really walk back that statement my colleague bolded. Instead I'd say Vyvanse and tramadol are worse than I thought and please don't take those two together (that and amphetamine isn't a reuptake inhibitor for dopamine and norepi, mostly just a releasing agent).

If anyone wants to explain in detail why they would be at worst no more dangerous than an extra dose of either, I'm happy to listen.

But OP, that's not your worry, don't take the tramadol.

Tramadol and venlafaxine (and many other antidepressants, for that matter) compete for the same enzyme. There are plenty of people on this forum who can vouch for these being a dangerous combo.

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/772268-Think-I-almost-had-a-seizure-tonight-from-Tramadol
On this thread, someone had a seizure from just 300 mg of tramadol mixed with a moderate dose of cymbalta and wellbutrin. And OP is taking a *very* high dose of venlafaxine (usually the max is 225-300), which has a higher serotonin-to-noradrenaline reuptake inhibition ratio than cymbalta or bupropion (bupropion isn't serotonergic at all, but it is a powerful inhibitor of CYP2D6). I believe others on this board have reported seizures from just 250 mg or less of tram.

So in terms of the seizure risk, vyvanse only contributes relatively little - the problem is that OP is taking a very high dose of an SNRI with another SNRI that competes for the same enzyme.
 
So in terms of the seizure risk, vyvanse only contributes relatively little - the problem is that OP is taking a very high dose of an SNRI with another SNRI that competes for the same enzyme.

The risk of Vyvanse and tramadol is a pressor effect, a hypertensive crisis, aka "cheese effect". That's from metabolism of these drugs, not reuptake inhibition.

Targeting the same transporter means simply there's more of a chemical available to cause inhibition. At high dose they saturate it completely. They don't go over 100% inhibition. You can take a Prozac with a Zoloft, which really are two different structural classes, and not worry about serotonin syndrome just because they target the same receptor, and even if they completely drown it. You WILL get diarrhea though.

The source of the seizure risk from tramadol isn't clear, but it does not involve SNRI action. I've seen two mechanisms, one involving the 5-HT2c receptor antagonism, and another from some weird GABA receptor inhibition. The seizure risk with bupropion also comes from some other source. Usually these things involve GABA and NMDA receptors in some way.

There's no reason to think venlafaxine has any of that activity, and it doesn't seem to antagonize HT2c at all. It's contribution would be less than an extra tramadol dose.

The same liver enzyme may predominately metabolize both of these drugs--in an additive way that you wouldn't worry about if it was just a dose increase. Having a lot of venlafaxine on board may slow the conversion of tramadol to its active metabolite to a greater degree than if you just increased the tramadol dose alone. But nothing catastrophic. Just unnecessary.

However, the risk/dose ratio for side effects with any drug usually isn't linear, and so a double dose may equal a four-fold increase in risk. So any additional dosage is something you want to avoid.

Don't read too much into structural similarity, or you'll confuse your Benadryl with Prozac. Lose some flourine from your Prozac and get your Straterra. How many of us would like to knock the acetyl group off our OTC melatonin?

Again, not a safe combo, OP.
 
I've taken Tramadol and SSRI's together many times without issues. But I wouldn't risk it in the future. If you have to, try and potentiate the Tramadol with something so that you can use a lower dose. I used to use oxycodone to potentiate Tramadol on zoloft (yes, Tramadol was a measurably more euphoric drug for me compared to oxycodone). I would also strongly recommend keeping some cyproheptadine on hand, it's the drug used in hospitals to reverse serotonin syndrome. Have some diazepam on hand also in case the worst happens.

I haven't seen any research assessing the risk or incidence of serotonin syndrome with Tramadol-SSRI combinations at reasonable doses. So we don't really know how risky it is. For what it's worth one of my closest friends is a pharmacologist. I asked him about this interaction and he told me that the incidence is so rare that it's not worth worrying that much about.

It is also likely that most individuals that have suffered from serotonin syndrome as a result of this interaction, are part of the minority of poor metabolisers. Tramadol is metabolised via the CYP2D6 enzyme. Individuals lacking this enzyme will have more Tramadol in their bloodstream because it's not being metabolised properly. Tramadol itself has appreciable serotonin activity but it's metabolites have little to none. It's chief metabolite O-Desmethyltramadol is responsible for the entirety of Tramadol's opioid activity. Poor metabolisers will have excess serotonergic activity as a result, and a deficit of opioid activity. Around 10% of the western population are poor metabolisers.

A rather crude way of assessing whether you're a poor metaboliser is by describing the nature of the 'high' that you get from Tramadol. For me it feels like a strong opiate, with more opioid-esque euphoria than oxycodone. That's how I know I'm getting a lot of Tramadol's metabolite, O-Desmethyl, since Tramadol itself doesn't really have any opioid activity. The likelihood is therefore that I'm a very good metaboliser. So my risk of serotonin syndrome is much lower than the average user. Be aware that there's another metabolic pathway with Tramadol that involves a different enzyme. So how well this pathway is working will also influence the levels of Tramadol in the bloodstream. The metabolite of this pathway doesn't have much appreciable psychoactivity.

The other complication is that certain antidepressants inhibit the CYP2D6 enzyme and can therefore reduce metabolisation to O-Desmethyltramadol. So you might find yourself needing to raise the dose to get the same opioid activity. This is obviously a problem as the levels of Tramadol in your blood stream will rise. If the antidepressant is effectively inhibiting CYP2D6 you'll have more trarnadol in your bloodstream with the same dose compared to when you weren't on SSRI's. Raising the dose on top of that is asking for trouble. Sertraline/zoloft inhibits CYP2D6 the least of the SSRIs. Anecdotally the intensity of the Tramadol high was unchanged for me off v on sertraline.

If you really want to do this, my advice would be to get cyproheptadine and diazepam. Find a non serotonergic potentiator for the Tramadol. Ideally you should also change antidepressants. I would recommend combination depression therapy with ketamine, tianeptine and agomelatine. 3 different accepted and authorised anti depressants. All at least as effective as the anti depressant you're currently taking, and without the risk of negative interactions with Tramadol or other drugs like mdma. All have a vastly reduced side effect and dependence-liability profile compared to mainstream anti depressants. Neither of those 3 anti depressants will cause physical dependence unlike the one that you're taking, and they've all been found to be at least as effective (with ketamine found to be significantly more effective) according to the available published research. I'm personally using tianeptine and ketamine, and it's worked much better than SSRI's ever did with 0 side effects to boot. I'm considering adding agomelatine because I haven't had complete remission. I have however, gone from severely depressed and housebound to mild-moderately depressed and functional with these medications. Best part is I can use as much Tramadol and MDMA is I like whilst keeping depression at bay ;). Although to be honest, past MDMA abuse and twice weekly use of Tramadol is probably contributing to my depression. I'm trying to reduce my opioid use though. I've now got it down to 3 times one week, 0 times the next in a cycle. I've discontinued MDMA for about 6 months to heal my serotonergic system from past MDMA abuse :/

But yeah don't use Tramadol as a regular antidepressant as prolonged mu-opioid receptor agonism (of which Tramadol, or rather its metabolite, is an agonist) is associated with the development of depression. Ideally you should only use it when you have a special occasion that you want to enjoy without the awful weight of depression.
 
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Thanks so much for your replies. It really means a lot to me :) I decided not to risk taking tramadol and today doc prescribed remeron as add-on for effexor. Not sure if it's gonna work and me next option is ECT.
 
Thanks for bringing this back, because I was going to withdraw my previous "don't take together, but it's not as bad as they're saying" and go with "more smart people say bad."

I know you paid a lot of attention to my non-endorsement. I still haven't found if anyone knows the source of seizure risk in tramadol, but there are studies that correlate taking SSRIs with increasing it. Not a cause necessarily, but if that's the only data, better go with it.

EDIT: But I'm glad your doc found a potential solution, and that she was being ironic with the ECT.
 
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