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  • BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | negrogesic

2 things i dont understand about Buprenorphine (Suboxone films).

D

Diamorphazepam

Greenlighter
Joined
Mar 15, 2015
Messages
48
http://www.nps.org.au/publications/...m-buprenorphine-with-naloxone-sublingual-film
This website says 4-8 mins for Suboxone films to absorb
10% oral and 30-55% sublingual BA
www.suboxone.com/content/pdfs/doctor-discussion-guide.pdf
This website says 5 and 6.6 minutes for SUBOXONE Film and between 7 and 12.4 minutes for the SUBOXONE Tablet to dissolve

I was out and about today and put 2 2mg subs under my tongue. I had things to do and needed to communicate but I didn't want to loose any of my Bupe. It's annoying because I waited 10 mins before I drank it and could start talking again but even than I thought I may have lost some.

I do notice that if I swallow after 10 mins if tastes strong. But if I wait 30 mins it tastes very weak. If it's not the Buprenorphine giving the Suboxone that horrible taste than what is it?
They should just give your Bupe by itself so you know when the taste goes away that it has all absorbed!

Being as smart as I am I would assume that it would work something like this:
50% would be absorbed in the first 5 mins and than 25% during the next 5 mins and than 12.5% during the next 5 mins and than 6.25% during the next 5 mins and so on. The longer you leave it in the more you get but less and less of an increase.
But maybe the amount of saliva in your mouth decreases the absorption and you have to wait longer if your have to much.

The products legit websites says an average of 6 mins. A see many website saying 15 mins. Some saying 30 mins. Does anyone have a link to an actual proper study of how long it takes for the buprenorphine to absorb?

Another thing I don't understand is all these tricks people have increase the BA of Buprenorphine. Alcohol doubling it's BA for example (Even simply using mouth wash straight before). I can understand it helping it absorb a few mins faster but I don't understand how it could increase BA. I don't understand how anything done inside your mouth could increase BA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublingual_administration
I didn't understand where the 70% of the Bupe that doesn't get into your blood goes but considering it has to go through your liver first it would be obvious it would be lost there, not in your saliva. It doesn't just go straight from your mouth into your blood like IV as far as I know. That's why there is a 30-60 minute onset apparently

Wouldn't it be logical to think that practically ALL the Buprenorphine if you wait long enough can be absorbed though your mouth and what doesn't get in your blood is lost in your liver.

I think people are doing different things like rinsing with alcohol or drying there mouths and it seems stronger simply because it's absorbing faster so they're getting more from keeping it in the same amount of time. Holding it in your mouth for 10 mins with alcohol might be the same as holding it in your mouth for 20 mins without alcohol.

When you think about it. It's like saying rinse your mouth out with alcohol and than pop a pill and it will increase the BA

Or am I wrong and the Bupe is lost in your mouth due to saliva killing it off or something like that and that's why people try to keep there mouths dry to help absorb the BA.

If that were the case the solution would be simple. You would just cut your strip into smaller pieces and take each until saliva builds up.

The Buprenorphine is lost in the liver and not in an inability of mucous membrane beneath the tongue absorbing it, right?

I am totally confused. It's probably a bit of both because like I said before. Maybe with a lot of saliva in your mouth you have to wait half an hour to get an extra 25% if you have a really watery mouth. So it isn't worth waiting. And of course there is going to be some loss in the liver too.

Until I get a definite answer maybe next time I'm out and about I should wait until I'm home. Maybe I should have taken them one at a time so each got its own time in my mouth until to much saliva came along and slowed absorption down. Maybe I should have rinsed my mouth with Listerine so it was dry and had alcohol than held it under my tongue for ages while I watched TV. So to absorbs faster.
Absorbs faster not increases BA. That's what would make sense.

EDIT:
I just read that Wikipedia link that I posted myself and it clicked that saliva does actually destroy the Buprenorphine:
Sublingual administration has certain advantages over oral administration. Being more direct, it is often faster,[quantify] and it ensures that the substance will risk degradation only by salivary enzymes before entering the bloodstream
Click to expand...

So how much is lost in the liver and how much is lost due to salivary enzymes?

I have to go but will do some goggling later. How much of Buprenorphine is lost due to first pass metabolism. It would be a shame to think that so much Buprenorphine is going to waste because of salivary enzymes.

Just found this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_pass_effect
Notable drugs that experience a significant first-pass effect are imipramine, morphine, propranolol, buprenorphine, diazepam, midazolam, demerol, cimetidine, and lidocaine.
Click to expand...
Starting to look like the liver again and not salivary enzymes destroying the Bupe. I will keep looking.

www.medicines.org.au/files/rcpsubtx.pdf
this pdf in information. it says bupe is generally dissolved within 10 mins but look at the other info it has. Take a look at how different doses put different doses in your body.
2mg puts a level of Cmax level of 2 bupe in your body where 4mg put a level of 2.65. I have no idea what that means. But it says 14mg has a Cmax of 4.42. Does that mean you have to take 16mg of Bupe to double the effect of 2mg?
I don't understand what AUC means either.
the bioavailability of 0.4mg and 0.8mg sublingual buprenorphine tablet doses was 30-35%. With 8mg sublingual buprenorphine delivered as a solution the buprenorphine bioavailability compared to intravenous administration was 42%.
Click to expand...

that would mean if u dissolve your bupe in a bit of water on a spoon first it would increase BA?

Im sorry about all the threads about Buprenorphine lately. This will be my last one. I just don't understand its properties very well. I write a thread about putting your strips on a spoon and letting them dissolve in a bit of water and/or alcohol the other day with no replies. search the internet. Bupes solubility of 17 mg/ml in water and 42 mg/ml in alcohol. So there is no problem in dissolving them in small liquids. That website above had a 10% BA increase from letting it dissolve in just plain water first. imagine what dissolving it in alcohol could do. Unfortunately I haven't had the chance to truly try it. I only had alcohol swaps which I squeezed on a spoon with water but that was a very bad idea as it tasted toxic. I had no liquor laying around. I don't know about mouth wash either. Ive seen a lot on the internet about this increasing BA or absorption whatever it is.

This post is getting to big now. im sorry. no more questions about bupe.
 
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Wow you most definitely thought about this issue. I was on subs for about 8 months and in that time got down to 0.25mg every other day before stopping so I know all about wondering if it is getting absorbed properly. Honestly I think just a light brushing of the area you plan on applying the film will help a lot. Even when I was down to a micro dose where I could hardly handle the strip let alone position it well but I never had an issue of thinking I missed it somehow.

I think in an effort to have it absorb fully your best bet would be a light brushing coupled with a rinse to make your mouth a little moist. If you dissolve it in something you run the risk of accidentally swallowing it or it not absorbing as well because its in solution. The only thing I did was try to avoid talking for 5 mins (my job is phones all day) but even when I got on the phone I had no issues with absorption. It is my belief that you are over thinking it and the only way for you to find out truly whats best for you is trail and error. Good Luck! (though you probably dont need it!) ;)
 
lol yeah cant believe I wrote all that yesterday. must have been high. Ive got some in my mouth now ive had for 30 mins. I used listeratine and am just about to slollow. I read the onset can be 30 mins - an hr. I swear I can feel something happening while it is still in my mouth. It can take 1-4 hours to peak. Maybe i'll want to try to study something else for 2 hrs straight again.
 
You could try dipping a Q-tip in vodka, swab tongue a few times, then place the strip directly on one of the large veins.

Also, see what happens if you spit it out after say 20 mins or so.
 
im not going to spit it out instead of swallowing it just in case it didn't get it all. If I get half sublingual (30% ) and swallow the other half oral (10% ) that's like an average of 20%.

The bioavailability of 30-35% for normal sublingual use. 42% in water. And apparently 70% in alcohol. (I will have to go check that amount)

Maybe someone could try putting some strips on a spoon.
Add the smallest amount of liquor it dissolves in. 4mg should dissolve less than in 0.1mLs of pure alcohol.
If something in your liquor or the Suboxone isn't letting it dissolve. Add liquor until it does.
Wait for it to dissolve. Help it by stirring and crushing down with the plunger.
Suck it up with a syringe. You don't need the needle.
Squirt it in the exact best spot under your tongue

It would already be dissolved so you wouldn't have to wait like you usually do with your saliva washing it all over the place and destroying your drugs with the increased absorption of the alcohol too

anyways im sick of waiting for suboxone to absorb. 20 minutes it a long time of not talking to anybody if you're busy. You also cant do anything at the risk someone asks why you cant talk.
cant some scientist change bupe to a form that has a higher oral BA. It's fucking annoying. Bring out a patch even. It probably isn't very good for your teeth or gums either. letting them soak in bupe and naloxone for so long.
They don't give a fuck about our teeth or what it tastes like.
it's like how they put APAP in with codeine and oxycodone. they would rather u get liver damage than get high. like getting high is the worse out of the 2...

Edit. Someone already made a thread about this.
http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads...c-Solutions-for-Higher-BA-With-Sublingual-Use
read that. I'll read it myself now. Might try to learn something.
 
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thanks for that link. i'll take a look. few things I don't get is why u want stuff around with any cotton.
when u think about it. if 4mg of bupe dissolves in 0.1mL maybe u don't need it all to dissolve. it would be like cwe. the solids u don't want anyway.
 
Honestly, I'd try the method I recommended first, it helps with the sub-puddle. If it doesn't do anything for you, try the cotton method. From what I remember it was a pain in the ass and you have to leave it under your tongue even longer. Also, try to stay at 2mg or lower if you want to get off the stuff.

gl
 
oh sorry im wrong. otherwise u could do the cold water extraction with like 5mLs because of codeines high solubility. u still need everything to sort of mix.
Ive got plenty of ready for now thanks mate.
 
Yes they do. I believe the end of the thread covers films. If not, I can probably find a more specific thread.
 
I have made a mistake in this thread when I was talking about after reading this article thoroughly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_pass_effect
first pass metabolism. apparently bupe does straight from your mouth into your blood.
it is salivery enzymes that kill the bupe. increasing the BA is achieved from increasing the speed of aborption before saliva kills your bupe.
rinsing your mouth out with Listerine until your mouth is dry may be the answer. or giving cutting your strip into 4 pieces and having a break between each one to swallow your saliva. it may be the same as the "tramadol phenomenon" where smaller doses spread out gives a greater effect.
this is just an idea.
ofcourse it goes straight into your blood and your brain as I originally thought. I read something wrong. I don't know how it could go from your mouth to your liver without going through your blood which would be the same as injecting.
I don't understand why the onset takes 0.5-1 hrs. though. must sit under your gums. ive given myself a headache.
I think im going to simply take a higher fucking dose!
 
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When I would take the strips (sublingual), nothing worked nearly as well as taking them after brushing my teeth/gums/tongue and washing my mouth out with the original type Listerine (or another ethanol based) mouthwash. I'd get ready to pop the strip in under my tongue while using the mouthwash and directly after spitting the mouthwash into the sink I'd slip the strip in. There would be a little mouthwash still in my mouth, as it was important not to rinse with water or anything else between using the Listerine and taking the Suboxone strip.

Strips would dissolve in maybe a minute. They'd melt like butter. It was infinitely more effective than not using such mouthwash (or any other sublingual method I have tried, of which most are mentioned in this thread). Using a high proof alcohol (80/40% to 150/75% ) to rinse my mouth with before taking the strip didn't work as well as the Listerine.
 
^^yes this has been what it have been doing. it slightly dry's your mouth and coats a little alcohol everywhere. You know you're never going to run out and want to drink it all either. It tastes nice and is healthy for your teeth. At the very least. This is the easiest thing to do.
Listarine is 22% alcohol. And your KNOW u can rinse for as long as you like without no problems. Rinse till it burns and goes numb if you like. It probably put MORE alcohol in your mouth because it's impossible to stand rinsing with anything else.

Bupe is not only absorbed through the veins under your tongue but all the areas in your mouth. I read this somewhere. It's all about having it in high concentration solutions in as many surface areas possible the article said.

so put it under your tongue. when it dissolves and gets wet. make sure to swish it around and it around like mouth wash before you swallow or spit so it coats everywhere. Don't forget to gargle too with it! Need the mouth to be Suboxone clean!

Wake up. Have Coffee. small breakfast. clean teeth. mouth wash. suboxone.
2 birds with one stone.

the article even said little no no Bupe is absorbed through the veins under in your tongue. Maybe it may even be just as good holding it on the roof off your mouth. I don't know about that for sure though
 
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Can i just add that to me bupe doesn't even seem that recreational. If it didn't have the half blacking effect would it still stick to all the receptors not letting others in.

I mean when u take oxy or h it doesn't just take over and not let codeine in.
methadone like to takes over 2 doesn't it. But there is no fear of it participating w/d. Wonder what would happen if you took Bupe and methadone. it would be a fight for the receptors. It don't get it all.

Couldn't they make Bupe like methadone. So there is no fear of it participating w/d yet it still like the receptors.
 
Bupe is a partial agonist, methadone is a full agonist.

If Bupe was like methadone chances are DR's wouldn't be able to prescribe it like they can.

(If I wasn't so lazy I could provide a better explanation) :|
 
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^ methadone also has a much worse safety profile which is a big part of it. When a clinic gives someone 7X90mg doses for take homes that individual has enough methadone to let's say poison his or her whole department at work (4-6 people depending) and when you give someone suboxone you can assume no one will die. People die from methadone every day sometimes it's poor Billy the honors student who's friend gave him his mom's methadone or some neglectful parents child but either way it's a million times more likely with methadone.

Unfortunately that fact is what keeps it lock and key. Sure it's recreational in a sense but that is a small part of it as plenty of meds are recreational most are just not deadly

To answer the question on "making bupe like methadone" it has to do with binding affinity and activity. Think about activity like a vibration and bonding affinity like magnetism. So methadone vibrates much quicker then subs and that vibration is a match for heroin so your brain goes "hey this vibrates like dope so let's release the amount of neurotransmitters like dope!" So whether or not it has enough magnetism to over power dope and lock in stead of it doesn't matter to your body because they vibrate the same.

Buprenorphine vibrates slower then dope but is also way more magnetic then dope. So when it reaches the receptor site dope gets ripped off and replaced with the more magnetic suboxone. Once this happens the suboxone vibrates slower then dope or methadone so your body goes into withdrawal due to that ripped off and lower vibration in its place. If you give yourself time for the dope or methadone to leave the receptor you do not go into withdrawal since no vibration is occurring at the receptor.

I think that is simple enough for people to grasp the basics. It is way more complicated. *magnets and vibration used for illustration purposes only*
 
^Thanks for explaining that far better than I could have. I was going to get into the safety aspect, ceiling effect, but it was late and I was having issues with my web connection.

I didn't find either recreational..
 
Mustapha Mond said:
^Thanks for explaining that far better than I could have. I was going to get into the safety aspect, ceiling effect, but it was late and I was having issues with my web connection.

I didn't find either recreational..
Click to expand...

Thank you and I wasnt trying to take your prize for best explanation I just had some time this morning to write, plus an illustration that people can relate to makes it easier to understand. I think the ceiling effect definitely has a part in its safety profile but suboxone simply doesnt cause the same level of respiratory depression of methadone which is what kills people. In my mind having used both recreationally and for recovery neither are "pleasurable" enough in my mind to be truly recreational however subs gave me a boost of energy that made them a functional tool. Beleive it or not that is why i think methadone will be easier for me to come off, As I only associate it with going to the clinic and not a boost of energy. Subs were so hard for me to stop because it was wake up drink coffee take subs and I would feel like a million bucks even when i was at 0.25mg every 36-48 hours right before i quit i still felt sluggish because of my association. People say methadone is harder because of its activity but I will have to see for myself
 
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