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Trigger Warning Canadian Journal of Anesthesia Editorial Labels Carfentanil (note spelling) as a Weapon of Mass Destruction

4DQSAR

4DQSAR

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FYI

link.springer.com

Carfentanil: a weapon of mass destruction - Canadian Journal of Anesthesia/Journal canadien d'anesthésie

link.springer.com link.springer.com

So when I pointed out that highly potent opioids could realistically see a defendant charged under anti-terrorism laws, I wasn't the first by a significant margin. Think about it from the perspective of law enforcement agencies. Yes, you might find some new highly potent opioid that isn't implicitly controlled as a drug in your nation, but they could make the reasonable case that your intention was to use it as a WMD. No matter what the format. Put it on blotters? Yeah - easy to wash back off blotters so I see that as no defence whatsoever.

I can't speak of the anti-terror laws in anywhere but the UK but anyone charged with such crimes loses a LOT of their rights as compared to someone charged with other crimes - even violent crimes. Now what your intentions will certainly be well demonstrated by a decent defence barrister, but it could take months or even years to end up in a court room and all the while, you will be sat in a Catagory-A prison and almost certainly on a wing reserved for those charged with terrorist offences.

I do not recommend anyone ever break the law but I especially recommend people don't put themselves in a position where they could be inprisoned for terrorist offences (unless they are guilty - in which case, they deserve it).
 
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4DQSAR said:
FYI

link.springer.com

Carfentanil: a weapon of mass destruction - Canadian Journal of Anesthesia/Journal canadien d'anesthésie

link.springer.com link.springer.com

So when I pointed out that highly potent opioids could realistically see a defendant charged under anti-terrorism laws, I wasn't the first by a significant margin. Think about it from the perspective of law enforcement agencies. Yes, you might find some new highly potent opioid that isn't implicitly controlled as a drug in your nation, but they could make the reasonable case that your intention was to use it as a WMD. No matter what the format. Put it on blotters? Yeah - easy to wash back off blotters so I see that as no defence whatsoever.

I can't speak of the anti-terror laws in anywhere but the UK but anyone charged with such crimes loses a LOT of their rights as compared to someone charged with other crimes - even violent crimes. Now what your intentions will certainly be well demonstrated by a decent defence barrister, but it could take months or even years to end up in a court room and all the while, you will be sat in a Catagory-A prison and almost certainly on a wing reserved for those charged with terrorist offences.

I do not recommend anyone ever break the law but I especially recommend people don't put themselves in a position where they could be inprisoned for terrorist offences (unless they are guilty - in which case, you deserve it).
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For serious, I don't get why anyone would even WANT that shit anywhere near them. NOBODY needs that, no matter how crazy-high your tolerance may be. Isn't Carfentanyl to Fentanyl what Fentanyl is to Morphine?
 
ChemicallyEnhanced said:
For serious, I don't get why anyone would even WANT that shit anywhere near them. NOBODY needs that, no matter how crazy-high your tolerance may be. Isn't Carfentanyl to Fentanyl what Fentanyl is to Morphine?
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It's turning up in samples of street fentanyl, apparently.

I've concluded that the market model being forced on US opioid users is to get them so tolerant and dependent on the products that substitution won't work, cold turkey likely extremely severe.

I've said it before. I've known five chemists who broke rule 1. Of that five, two are dead, one is still in prison 20 years later and two were still suffering abstainance syndrom a full year after they stopped using. I meen, they all ended up whacking up increasingly crazy doses every 20 minutes night and day. How did they THINK it was going to end?

So cut to something two orders of magnitude more potent... see where I'm going?
 
4DQSAR said:
It's turning up in samples of street fentanyl, apparently.

I've concluded that the market model being forced on US opioid users is to get them so tolerant and dependent on the products that substitution won't work, cold turkey likely extremely severe.

I've said it before. I've known five chemists who broke rule 1. Of that five, two are dead, one is still in prison 20 years later and two were still suffering abstainance syndrom a full year after they stopped using. I meen, they all ended up whacking up increasingly crazy doses every 20 minutes night and day. How did they THINK it was going to end?

So cut to something two orders of magnitude more potent... see where I'm going?
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Terrifying thought, but yeah. I've actually HEARD of that happening with high-dose fent users where methadone and bupe just DON'T WORK.
I know a guy on Fent and they had him on 200ml Methadone a day and he was STILL so sick he had to keep using fent on top of it (which was REALLY bad)
 
ChemicallyEnhanced said:
Terrifying thought, but yeah. I've actually HEARD of that happening with high-dose fent users where methadone and bupe just DON'T WORK.
I know a guy on Fent and they had him on 200ml Methadone a day and he was STILL so sick he had to keep using fent on top of it (which was REALLY bad)
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The acetylmethadol derivative of R-4066 is some x212 more potent than methadone and has a T1/2 of 20.8 hours (compared to 8.4 hours in methadone). So it's not like we don't know of a medication that may well substitute. But it's out of patent, complex to make (although the potency means tiny doses are sufficient) and I think most importantly, nobody seems to think it's needed. I think it is. Only time will tell.

That long duration means that it may be possible to dose patients on alternate days - so that would be a saving.

What can I say. Methadone is established and is crazy cheap. Unless and until someone patents the R-4066 derivative it on the basis of it's USAGE (opioid detoxification) which I think would be possible, we won't see it happen. But if I had the money, I would actually invest in trials. The patent holder could make a lot of money and more importantly, save a lot of lives.


Compound 1C is the one I feel useful to medicine.
 
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4DQSAR said:
The acetylmethadol derivative of R-4066 is some x212 more potent than methadone and has a T1/2 of 20.8 hours (compared to 8.4 hours in methadone). So it's not like we don't know of a medication that may well substitute. But it's out of patent, complex to make (although the potency means tiny doses are sufficient) and I think most importantly, nobody seems to think it's needed. I think it is. Only time will tell.

That long duration means that it may be possible to dose patients on alternate days - so that would be a saving.

What can I say. Methadone is established and is crazy cheap. Unless and until someone patents the R-4066 derivative it on the basis of it's USAGE (opioid detoxification) which I think would be possible, we won't see it happen. But if I had the money, I would actually invest in trials. The patent holder could make a lot of money and more importantly, save a lot of lives.


Compound 1C is the one I feel useful to medicine.
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I think in SOME people (only some because they definitely have a higher abuse potential than Methadone) could benefit from high-dose Fentanyl patches for maintenance, simple because you get 72hrs of cover from them.
 
A few years ago a US pharmacutical company was developing sufentanil patches. It's not a terrible option because sufentanil actually has a much bigger TI than plain vanilla fentanyl.

But the fentanyl epidemic hit the US and as far as I can tell, development was abandoned.

They were intend to be smaller and last for 7 days. But I'm sure I don't need to point out that if someone can chew up patches, such a large amount of such a potent opioid would represent a serious risk.
 
So straight up, 911 the day that is supposed to live in infamy when the american government wanted to play BOOM! with itself. I think 2000 people died.
When fentanyl hit the streets in Vancouver. The statistics from 2016-2019 is 13,900 people died. To say that fentanyl isn't a coordinated attack to nullify people
that the socio economic elite view as lesser isn't the largest planned mass scale murder covered up to look like a suicide... ya know... Like in the end that shit, is the bane of existence.
Before that demon hit the streets... the world used to be a much better place. It is a tragedy that plays out every single day, on a much smaller scale progressively over time slowly eliminating friends and loved ones.
The fact is just "magically" ends up in every drug known to man...isn't an accident.
 
It said in the article that carfentanil is only 20 times the potency of fentanyl. I always thought they used to say it is 100 times fentanyl.

Bear in mind this is much more recent than the original estimate and reflects use on actual humans as oppose to animal studies.
 
Smyth2 said:
It said in the article that carfentanil is only 20 times the potency of fentanyl. I always thought they used to say it is 100 times fentanyl.

Bear in mind this is much more recent than the original estimate and reflects use on actual humans as oppose to animal studies.
Click to expand...

I think it depends on what you are measuring. For analgesic purposes carfentanil may well be x100 fentanyl but due to the class generally not being euphoric, it might take more for people to get 'high' off the stuff.

If you don't abuse it, fentanyl is a reasonable analgesic. I would argue that it should have stayed within the remit of balanced anasthesia but when that patent ran out, pharmacutical companies quickly worked out there was money to be made.

Is 3 or even 7 days REALLY more convenient that say a pill you take once per day? I would argue not. For me the patches would keep falling off and I had to wrap cling-film around them while I bathed. So to me, clearly LESS convenient.

But to be fair - no sedation. So MAYBE in patients subject to falls, or subject to forgetting to take their medication... maybe. But as a first-line option as it was for a few years, clearly not.

I take my oxycodone no more often than I'm told to, sometimes less. Have done for over a decade. But I know enough about the stuff to know it can make a useful servent but is an awful master. A healthy respect for the stuff is required. Doesn't get me high, can make me a bit sleepy so I drink too many enery drinks but for the pain - damn, the stuff works great! I can WALK!!! Not much, not far and not always. But enough to live my life.
 
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