What book are you currently reading?

[MrM]

some of the greatest atheistic minds to of ever existed have crumbled when asked to reaffirm their (non)belief upon their deathbeds.

Lies have been told about some of the more famous atheists renouncing their lack of belief on their deathbeds. The atheists involved cannot really do much about this, on account of being dead, but it makes for good propaganda that is difficult if not impossible to refute unless the atheist was being recorded at the time. If you have any actual hard evidence (rather than stories or hearsay) regarding any of these supposed death bed converts i'd love to hear.

I felt the need to interject regarding your pro god argument partly because it has no real place in a discussion about people's favorite books and partly because it's such a logical fallacy that i'd be doing anyone who read it and found it convincing a disservice if i didn't explain exactly why it's a load of bollocks.

I did not intend to pick on you. I intended to robustly counter you 'atheism refuting quote' for the reasons given above. You were the one who decided to lower things to personal insults and waste time over simple spelling errors rather than either engage in a mature debate or else just ignore me. I did not start by criticising you directly, only the point you appeared to be making.

i guess one thing you must consider is this; if youre right and my ex is wrong we shall never know any different, as you will no longer exist to congratulate yourself on your wisdom.. but if SHE'S correct and youre wrong, well then youll burn in hell for all eternity - i guess i just like to play it on the safe side.

I did consider this and decided that if god does turn out to both exist and also be all knowing (kind of a prerequisite for him being god) then he'd not be at all convinced by my pretending to believe just to get into heaven. He'd probably be offended. If i live a good life for no religious reason at all i suspect any worthwhile deity would look more charitably on me than if i pretended to be religious and did good things just to get the reward of heaven once i was dead.

 

[Jblazingphoenix100]

You do know he plagiarised the Don Juan stuff and was also a totally evil scumbag don't you? Have got the whole Castaneda collection here but never gotten around to reading them. Once you know how much of a twisted, lying fuck the author is it makes it kinda hard to accept his bullshit stories somehow

Great documentary about Casteneda's life and where the Don Juan stuff was stolen from.

I had no idea. I just got given the book, thanks for the link - yet I'm getting into the book, and even if he's making it up - it's still going to be a fantastic read. Pinch of salt eyy, pinch of salt.

 

[Riklet]

I'm reading "Freefall: Free Markets and the Sinking of the Global Economy" by Joseph Stiglitz, former chief economist of the World Bank. Not that far in, but pretty good so far, he's written a few other books linked to my uni course and this one should be helpful too. Plus it's just generally interesting.

Also got a load of other academic books on the go, about crime/inequality in Brazil, Globalisation and such tings.

Got a Charlie Brooker book for xmas, and Slaughterhouse Five by Vonnegut to tuck into too, at some point

I think i'm going to buy a Kindle soon, so that should help with reading journal articles, .pdf files and e-book stuff. Plus you can get any book out of copyright for free; all the classics... the Kindle can fit ~3,500 books too which is pretty ace.

 

[Shambles]

I had no idea. I just got given the book, thanks for the link - yet I'm getting into the book, and even if he's making it up - it's still going to be a fantastic read. Pinch of salt eyy, pinch of salt.

Plagiarism is the least of his crimes. Really

Will probably get around to reading the books one day but it really is hard to put up with his fake hippydom knowing what he did to his daughter/lover and many others

 

[knock]

Plagiarism is the least of his crimes. Really

Will probably get around to reading the books one day but it really is hard to put up with his fake hippydom knowing what he did to his daughter/lover and many others

However wrong he was, the books are a modern cultural artefact and well worth reading. Very entertaining if you suspend disbelief, up to the tensegrity / magical passes stuff, which is what made me doubt the whole thing seriously.

He creates a truly magical world which I would argue is to a large extent coherent and self-consistent. I know others would disagree, but they're wrong. He was definitely a clever man.

I don't think there is any fake hippydom. Hippydom is quite far from the direction the "teachings" or fables lead. They describe a ruthless practice for the apparently pragmatic goal of leading the Nagual's group into the infinite. I don't think ruthlessness is part of the hippy ideal, but he's quite open about it.

I'm sure it helps to be an impressionable youngster when you read them, though... to some extent he ruined my life, or brought mystery and adventure to it, depending on your point of view. I choose the latter.

 

[Shambles]

The stories are good cos he nicked them from proper writers who weren't cult-leading, perverted, bullshit artists and passed them off as his own

And the "Nagual" (some of whom he marrried... or adopted... or both, and all of whom he "forgot" his claimed celibacy for) killed themselves en masse upon discovering he'd lied to them all for years. "I love your vagina because it's the same as my daughter's" - nice. Not so much pragmatic as twisted maybe, but definitely ruthless. To some extent he ruined several lives. Or brought them mystery and adventure. Depending on your point of view. I choose the former.

 

[pinkpapaver]

i think i should et my brother on here. he'd love these linguistic arguments.

im gonna read something proper today....

i ,m gonna finsish readin the tain the one with the red cover. i love that story

" he shoots, he scores, and he hit the sliotár is in to the mouth of the dog, go on cu Chulláin " (spelling)

and then its all about a row over a cow of sorts, yep, that'll do today

 

[knock]

The stories are good cos he nicked them from proper writers who weren't cult-leading, perverted, bullshit artists and passed them off as his own

I don't think he nicked stories from anywhere, he may have nicked concepts though. I've watched the same documentary as you and I don't think it claims he stole stories, does it? I've not read de Mille's criticism but I've read extracts and it's by no means clear cut. There is quite a distinct narrative thread and a literary style which run through the books, I find it difficult to believe that many of the stories are lifted from other authors.

And the "Nagual" (some of whom he marrried... or adopted... or both, and all of whom he "forgot" his claimed celibacy for) killed themselves en masse upon discovering he'd lied to them all for years.

The suicide is speculation. The remains of Patricia Partin (his adopted daughter) were found. The others just disappeared.

"I love your vagina because it's the same as my daughter's" - nice.

She wasn't really his daughter, he legally adopted her when she was almost 40. Strange, but neither paedophilia nor biological incest, which is what you suggest.

Not so much pragmatic as twisted maybe, but definitely ruthless. To some extent he ruined several lives. Or brought them mystery and adventure. Depending on your point of view. I choose the former.

Plagiarist. I am reluctant to defend Castaneda but you seem quite vigorously opposed to him despite not having read his books!

 

[Shambles]

He adopted her, married her and had a sexual relationship with her. I didn't say he was a proven paedo but the overtones are distinctly sinister you must admit. The suicides are also pretty much certain - five women he was involved with - two of whom he was married to at the same time - said they intended to kill themselves. Four have never been seen since and the bones of the fifth were found later. Maybe the other four escaped to infinity? Or maybe they just carried out what they said they were going to do when they said they were going to. The plagiarism is pretty clear cut and not disputed by anybody as far as I know.

It's true I haven't read the books yet but I do have them all and will get around to it. I do tend to point out to folks that he has a very dark side to him purely cos it's so little known and folks seem to worship him as a demigod/ascended master/great teacher when he was really just an abusive psychopath who stole the work he is famous for. He is indefensible for what he did whatever literary value he may have added to the books he stole. Gary Glitter made some great records but he's hardly a great role model either.

 

[pinkpapaver]

how about the birmingham evening mail. think ill have a little look at that in a mo

 

[Shambles]

Maybe you should start a "What newspaper or Sunday supplement are you currently reading?" thread

 

[knock]

He adopted her, married her and had a sexual relationship with her. I didn't say he was a proven paedo but the overtones are distinctly sinister you must admit.

The entire story and the activities of the alleged sorcerors are sinister from the perspective of an ordinary person in ordinary society, but judging it in that way is not objective and doesn't wash with me, just like drug prohibition or marginalisation of the "insane" does not wash with me.

The suicides are also pretty much certain - five women he was involved with - two of whom he was married to at the same time - said they intended to kill themselves. Four have never been seen since and the bones of the fifth were found later. Maybe the other four escaped to infinity? Or maybe they just carried out what they said they were going to do when they said they were going to.

Maybe. Maybe not. As I said, it's speculation.

The plagiarism is pretty clear cut and not disputed by anybody as far as I know.

This is not true, its disputed by various people. Here's an example:

http://ttzlibrary.yuku.com/topic/587

It's true I haven't read the books yet but I do have them all and will get around to it. I do tend to point out to folks that he has a very dark side to him purely cos it's so little known and folks seem to worship him as a demigod/ascended master/great teacher when he was really just an abusive psychopath

His message is fundamentally dark from the perspective of an ordinary person in ordinary society. You just need to read the later books to see that. He describes our world as one where we are farmed like battery hens for our awareness. If you've seen The Matrix, the idea is in many ways a rip-off of Castaneda's writings.

Given this premise, which if taken at face value is terrifying, it's by no means unreasonable to behave like an abusive psychopath if it allows escape from this situation. He describes such behaviour in his books, openly for all to read. He makes no secret of behaving in abusive ways, and of being treated in abusive ways. He justifies it as a necessity in the pursuit of freedom.

who stole the work he is famous for.

This is a very sweeping statement and I don't think you have any evidence for it. As I say, it's feasible some concepts were pinched from other writers but there's no way in my view the books are not largely his own "work" whether fiction, wholly genuine or some mix of this.

He is indefensible for what he did whatever literary value he may have added to the books he stole. Gary Glitter made some great records but he's hardly a great role model either.

I thought you had some sympathy for paedophiles? And no-one has accused Castaneda of being a paedophile anyway.

I said I am reluctant to defend him but clearly I'm not. I will happily defend his literary work as being at the very least a highly entertaining and imaginative synthesis of various new-age and occultist ideas. If that's all it is, which is possible, then his behaviour certainly became a bit crazy and affected others around him. I think a crazy man needs crazy followers too. I am tempted to treat him as a product of his times rather than a singularly evil man. I don't think he actually killed anyone, did he?

You come across as taking the whole thing personally, are you pissed off you spent money on the books or something?

 

[Shambles]

I was loaned the books by a big fan of his. I take it personally for personal reasons I won't go into. I don't like abusive men and especially not those that justify it in such elaborate ways. The books were copied mainly from previous anthropological studies by other reasearchers - not mainstream books which is why it's not obvious where they were taken from - and mixed with his own philosophy and stuff he did make up himself (but much of it claimed as real events). I also didn't say he was an actual paedo - the Glitter comparison was a bit lazy but intended to point out that people with very unpleasant tendencied in their personal lives can produce work of some artistic merit but they do not deserve the hero-worship some give them. Michael Jackson would maybe have been a better comparison as the paedo stuff in his case is speculation but also seems very likely to be true and he is still worshipped as a god by his fans. I do have sympathy with the "plight" of paedos but I wouldn't wish to follow their teachings in justifying abusive behaviour. I am a very long way from being "an ordinary person in ordinary society" and believe in total freedom for all... as long as they aren't fucking other people over in the process.

 

[pinkpapaver]

if you were to read a paulo cohelo book, which one would ya read at this time of year. ive read them all i think, some of them twice, and they point me in the right direction

 

[technocat]

Really enjoying this at the moment. Its like a collection of interviews with survivors of the zombie war, or world war Z as its called. Its a really good read, haven't been able to put it down since I got it!

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

Carlos Castenada? Made a nice career out of it didn't he. Being a grade A bullshitter that is. Still, pays the bills eh?

 

[captain codshit]

yeah there's bezs autobiography. i think its called freaky dancing. one of my favourite autobiographies.

theres one about the hacienda by bernard summers which is very good aswell

Cheers Pingu just the ticket man!

endlessname - I'll probably take a look at those too thanks

Have a great one about the whole Madchester era and the history of Ecstasy with loads of Mondays stories in it. Can't recall what it's called but is written by a semi-famous old punk who is often to be found opining on late night arts programmes like The Late Show. Rob somebody I think. Will post it if I stumble across the book amongst the rubble of my room.

Cheers Shambles let me know if you find it, sounds class %)

 

[Mailmonkey]

Carlos Castenada? Made a nice career out of it didn't he. Being a grade A bullshitter that is. Still, pays the bills eh?

Oh yeah, i hammered his books in me late teens-early 20's, a publisher's dream I was, could have stuck his name on a Mills and Boon and I'd have read and regurgitated it on demand.

Bez's Freaky Dancing is a vaguely interesting toilet read.

I'm about to start England's Dreaming, by Jon Savage, missis got it for me for Christmas.

 

[koneko]

Carlos Castenada eh, a bit of a blast from the past...

Graffiti book.

http://www.artofthestate.co.uk/graffiti/pictures_on_walls_graffiti_book.htm

No Banksy but good images of the likes of - a bin with vote here scrawled on it and a wall with "the best things in life aren't things"

 

[tribal girl]

^I have a few similar books. In fact, I remember when I bought them. The guy in the shop looked at them before scanning them through and said, "very Zeitgeist!".

I'm currently reading Generation A by Douglas Coupland, which so far is a pretty good read.

Actually, I've only just realised that I never got around to finishing Miss Wyoming. I'm forever starting books and never finishing them.