Conservatives question methadone maintenance (UK)

That's the problem. There is no pharma grade extract of kratom. Anyone telling you that they have some "standardized full spectrum concentrate" is only as good as their word that anyone can post on the internet.
 
I was talking about possibilities rather than encouraging people to buy random stuff off the internet and hope that it helps.

I was suggesting that it would be a worth while field of study for chemists and medical researchers.

However, I have seen chem labs selling 40% pure alkaloids, supposedly.....In my opinion that is no more or less credible than buying RCs from the same merchant sites.
 
The difference between "possibilities" and "realities" is that only one is actually useful. Everyone knows that kratom has great possibilities. Until the actual research is done and it's actually available as a pharmaceutical product, it will remain useless. Your argument is that kratom is useful for opiate maintenance and detox. Therefore, your argument is wrong. QED

Also, your argument about RC's, while valid, is irrelevant with regard to your argument.
 
Thats kind of a negative attitude. All I said was is "that it might be worth researching", and I was clearly talking about the pure or concentrated alkaloids. Talking about using the whole plant for high level IV heroin addition is a 'straw man' because it did not address my actual comment. Also, I didnt come out and say 'Hey everyone, our problems are solved, pharmaceutical grade Kratom alkaloids are available to everyone for cheap and the research is is completed!'. I didnt say anything of the sort. All I said is that its worth researching, and I mentioned that the alkaloids ARE more potent by weight and active orally if you extract them.

First of all, your "worthless" claim rests on the assumptions that alkaloid concentrates are unavailable and that there is no data to support its use.....both claims are false. There is a rich history in east Asia of people using Kratom to fight off Opium WDs.....Its a lot cheaper there. Its a leaf that grows in large quantities on trees and anyone can afford tons of it. Also, the concentrates are in fact available right now.

You make a semi-valid point in that there is little standardized testing for many of these products....though some claim third party testing which is probably possible to verify.

If everyone had the attitude that possibilities are worthless we wouldnt have much progress. I was just saying its worth while to research....however, you CAN get potent concentrates right now if the levels found in bulk herb are not doing it for you....I would test the waters though, and I think research should be done before this become a treatment.

Lighten up. I dont see why this should be an argument.
 
Although you may have not explicitly stated that kratom is better than methadone treatment, the weight of the full body of your arguments is conducive to that conclusion, and that is thus what you are inherently standing by.

Also, you clearly don't know what a straw man argument is and I suggest that you look it up. Actually, at this point, my eyes are darting to your second paragraph and I think that you know very well what I'm about to say and I'm going to cease repeating myself and wasting space on this board.

This thread is about the position that methadone maintenance plays in improving social conditions. If you have something to add to that, feel free. I don't so I'm going to stop putting up the same arguments to your unfounded ideas. If you really want to keep it up, PM me and we can do this all day, but, once again, I'm not going to waste space.
 
I am sorry for going off topic, but I was certainly NOT suggesting that Kratom was superior to Methadone, especially bulk herb kratom for high dose IV addicts. I suggested nothing of the sort. The data just isnt in. We need a clinical trial before we can determine that, based on a pharmaceutical grade extract.

When you attack a position that is not the position of the person you are responding to, that is a straw man. Perhaps you imagined that I held a position which I do not actually hold, so in your mind it was not a deliberate straw man. However, I did not suggest that Kratom was superior to Methadone in raw or extracted form. It was just a random thought in response to somebody stating how 'weak' kratom is....well, its actually quite potent, a lot stronger than heroin orally and certainly active in oral doses small enough to fit into a tiny white tablet.

I feel like you are projecting and that maybe you are irritated because I prefer heroin based inpatient programs to Methadone based ones. I dont think that out patient heroin programs would work out so well, because it would just end up supplementing a habit rather than helping somebody tapper off, while the Methadone is actually effective for discouraging that....so maybe Methadone the superior outpatient drug for addicts who were seriously addicted to high doses, but the drawback is that its actually even harder to tapper a Methadone dosage than it is to tapper a heroin dosage, which is why I think that just using heroin for most of the inpatient portion of a rehab program might be preferable......then I had a completely random thought in response to the 'potency' of Kratom which is active at just 15mg, but I was certainly not saying that Kratom therapy makes methadone obsolete.....All I was saying is that its worth researching as the active chemicals are in fact effective at doses small enough to fit into a capsule...I think it deserves a clinical trial. Thats it.



This was obviously a misunderstanding, so maybe we can move on.
 
However, I see your point above...if you are the kind of person who keeps going back to heroin after detox, then maybe a life long methadone prescription is the only thing that will keep you employable and well.

If you actually want to kick your habit entirely and live a sober lifestyle, or a non opiate addicted lifestyle where you can still party on other drugs in moderation but not be a slave to chemical dependency....Methadone might not be the right choice. Detoxing on Methadone is a slow and painful process. Detoxing with heroin or buprenorphine us faster and potentially less painful.....but yeah, nothing is to stop you from relapsing once you are sober, so if you dont think you have the will power to stay clean then a lifetime supply of Methadone will leave you more functional than a heroin addiction will.
 
^ I've never detoxed or been on methadone because I've never had a habit bigger than once a week. You just said things which didn't make sense and I pointed that out. As I said, if you have a standing disagreement with me then you can PM me. I'm not going to respond to arguments here and waste space.
 
I think you had some faulty assumptions about my position and what I was suggesting. I dont have any serious disagreement with your position, I just dont think you addressed my actual positions.

I think its fine if you dont want to respond, but choosing not to respond means not needing to have the last word and just walking away.....how often do you hear people trying to get one last jab in before saying 'Im done here'....but 10 posts later...



Methadone is an important drug to a lot of users.
Newer drugs have many advantages in that detox can happen faster.
Heroin based detox and Sub are alternative options, with Sub probably being safer but not for everyone.
Kratom isnt even a player right now, except for low level pill addictions, but its worth researching in its pure extracted form because it is potent enough to put in small pills.
All forms of drug maintenance and detox programs should continue to get funding or have their funding increased.
We also need more safe houses and needle exchange programs.
Methadone is perhaps a preferred option for people who cant seem to stay clean past detox....however, it has major weaknesses in that detox is more difficult and time consuming.

If you dont see anything above you disagree with then there really isnt an argument.
 
I see no problem with someone who wants to be on a maintenance drug like methadone for the rest of their lives. Those who want to quit will and stick with the program. However, some simply don't like the way methadone or buprenorphine make them feel. I firmly believe that a doctor who specializes in addiction should be given every pharmacological tool available to help treat their patients. DHC, Codeine, Darvocet, hydromorphone depots under the skin, methadone, buprenorphine, etc. etc. I'm not talking about giving the patient an unlimited supply of their DOC, but methadone and suboxone shouldn't be the only drugs they can be offered.
 
Wouldn't long-term darvocet have toxicity issues? I'm totally with you in terms of depot injections of opiates for maintenance, though. People would probably freak at the idea of full-agonist depot injections, though, and they'd be hard to properly dose.
 
lacey k said:
Taxpayers pay more money when people with drug problems commit crimes and get locked up and put a strain on the system. Anyways, you could say the same arguement for welfare and all forms of public assistance, should they get rid of that too? No...its in the best interest of the government and the community to have programs like this that offers aid, you do realize that in the US at least, it aint like its some kind of government handout program....You can get methadone "from the government" thru Medicaid at clinics that take insurance and many clinics accepts medicaid. thats a government program but it aint like your taxes is directly gettin put aside specifically to buy methadone for people. Anyways you would be payin much more taxes to cover that junkie in jail. Is the cost of over $35,000 a year per inmate and thats only at the cheap prisons better than payin like $3,000 a year per client at the clinic (And thats assuming its one of them expensive 50 dollar a week clinics--the actual cost of methadone is mad cheap, my pills is about $17 every 2 weeks so its like $35 a month which would be under 500 a year. If you so worried about payin your money and taxes on somebody "who made a bad decision" and its a whole lot more complex than that, I think its only the logical thing to support care and treatment svc's for addicts to get to them before they get locked up than waste at least ten times that amount to keep em locked up. Its simple logic yo, u want to look at this emotionaly with all that "oh why should i have to pay for a bad decision" shit, or u want to look at it in the simple straight forward & logical way which clearly shows u which one is better for your wallet?
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Yes, we should have gotten rid of welfare a long time ago. Those people on welfare did nothing to earn the money they're getting. That's redistribution of wealth, which is just another term for stealing from the rich and giving to the poor.
Also, a better idea is to just let people do what they want with their own bodies. Legalizing drugs would be a lot more cost effective.
 
I am 110% in favor of stealing from the rich to give to the poor. In fact, I dont think we take nearly enough from them.

Do the very wealthy actually earn their money with their labor? No. Not for the most part.....maybe some actors or artists or screen writers or sports celebrities do, but the very very wealthy are not getting paid for their labor...that is not where the REAL money comes from....they are profiting off the labor of others. Their money is increased through practices of usury and exploitation, paying their workers less than the value of their labor, exporting jobs to third world countries and STILL not paying even THEM a living wage. They pull scams shifting money around, letting some of their subsidiaries tank along with their debts while reaping the full benefits as their other companies stocks are through the roof....and they know this. Its all insider trading. With the person hood of corporations, individuals lose most of their accountability and we end up handing out poor peoples tax money to already profitable industries like the oil companies....record profits and we need to increase their subsidies to keep prices down? Give me a fucking break.

If you ask me, I think we should just throw them all in prison and take ever last dime, and put them to work in a prison steel yard.....I am not talking about people who made a lot of money with their own labor and skill, I am talking about people who profit via usury and exploitation, which is how most of the richest 00.0001% got where they are and stay there.


And yes, we can take that money and give it to drug rehabs and other clinics...I mean, why are conservatives ok with using tax dollars for prisons, but rehabs which are cheaper are a waste of tax payers money? Its absurd.


I personally dont like how Methadone makes me feel, and I have friends who tell me that tapering on methadone is harder than tapering off heroin, but I believe these decisions should be between doctors and patients, not law makers looking to save a buck by screwing the poor and those who need help.
 
Is there ever going to be a nation which accepts that opiates are used by some to treat MENTAL pain and suffering? Why must it be a crime to use the only medicines I have found that work to make me a happy functional member of society?
 
Sentience said:
I am 110% in favor of stealing from the rich to give to the poor. In fact, I dont think we take nearly enough from them.

Do the very wealthy actually earn their money with their labor? No. Not for the most part.....maybe some actors or artists or screen writers or sports celebrities do, but the very very wealthy are not getting paid for their labor...that is not where the REAL money comes from....they are profiting off the labor of others. Their money is increased through practices of usury and exploitation, paying their workers less than the value of their labor, exporting jobs to third world countries and STILL not paying even THEM a living wage. They pull scams shifting money around, letting some of their subsidiaries tank along with their debts while reaping the full benefits as their other companies stocks are through the roof....and they know this. Its all insider trading. With the person hood of corporations, individuals lose most of their accountability and we end up handing out poor peoples tax money to already profitable industries like the oil companies....record profits and we need to increase their subsidies to keep prices down? Give me a fucking break.

If you ask me, I think we should just throw them all in prison and take ever last dime, and put them to work in a prison steel yard.....I am not talking about people who made a lot of money with their own labor and skill, I am talking about people who profit via usury and exploitation, which is how most of the richest 00.0001% got where they are and stay there.


And yes, we can take that money and give it to drug rehabs and other clinics...I mean, why are conservatives ok with using tax dollars for prisons, but rehabs which are cheaper are a waste of tax payers money? Its absurd.


I personally dont like how Methadone makes me feel, and I have friends who tell me that tapering on methadone is harder than tapering off heroin, but I believe these decisions should be between doctors and patients, not law makers looking to save a buck by screwing the poor and those who need help.
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The rich do work for their money. You must not know many rich people. I know plenty. All of them work very hard. To say that they do not earn it is insane.

Also, profiting from the labor of others is called running a business. The business owner owns the means of production. They are entitled to profits earned from those means of production. That's capitalism 101.

If workers don't like their wages, they can quit. They agreed to work for that little. That's not exploitation. They're willingly deciding to work.

I don't care if you need help. Help yourself, just like everyone else has to.
 
People agree to things they wouldnt choose. Do you want to work in a sweat shop 80 hours a week or do you want to be starve or be arrested for vagrancy? Is that a choice? Maybe. If we give the banksters an ultimatum, to contribute to society or else, they can choose not to and get arrested and have their assets seized, or they can choose to pay their taxes....so I guess paying for taxes to pay for methadone is completely voluntary. People are just signing up to do it....literally.
 
i wish they had bupe. when i first went into treatment..... i may have been able to avoid a 10 year methadone habit. on the other hand methadone over the last 50 years has saved countless lives, saved family relationships, and held millions of otherwise destitute drug addicts seek gainful employment. as long as you follow the guidelines of the program it can be a godsend. many of the deaths involved with methadone are caused by abuse form opiate-nieve people stealing or buying other peoples scripts.
 
semigenius said:
The rich do work for their money. You must not know many rich people. I know plenty. All of them work very hard. To say that they do not earn it is insane.

Also, profiting from the labor of others is called running a business. The business owner owns the means of production. They are entitled to profits earned from those means of production. That's capitalism 101.

If workers don't like their wages, they can quit. They agreed to work for that little. That's not exploitation. They're willingly deciding to work.

I don't care if you need help. Help yourself, just like everyone else has to.
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The issue is that for millions of people they are born into a situation that they had no control over. There aint no way you can slice it that could possibly blame a baby for getting born into a shitty situation that wouldnt take your arguement into the side of silly-ass shit.

It is funny to me the hundreds of 20-something kids on here who went to economics class and walk around spoutin the glory of capitalism , it dont make me mad, but it does make me laugh. The viewpoint of the "fuck all yall, Ima take care of NUMBER ONE! I dont owe yall shit! Free market baby! Survivial of the fittest, yeaaa!" gets repeated on here all the time and 99 times out of 100 its the mark of some young-ass college student whose dick is hard for ayn rand.

Its a fuckin immature viewpoint, and I aint no goddamn hippy but i can tell you this. You do fuckin owe others. You got a responsibility to give half a shit as a human here on earth. I didnt learn that from nothin but my own experience in the years i been here and it proved it self well to me, trust that.

You spend long enough on this earth and you gonna eventually go thru some hard times. And you will realize that it might not be MONEY, it might not be public aid. But you do owe somethin to others, we all do. That fuck the world, Im the important one attitude sucks. And it aint cuz im a communist or some shit, cuz I aint. its just basic fucking human kindness, and I dont admire the folks who play that young-n-tough make-money capitalist shit--I just pity them, becuz its gonna really fuckin suck for yall when you realize that other ppls lives DO affect you, and that down the road you cant keep livin that way without negative consequences sometime. Whether you realize it now or later is the difference. also when some tragedy comes up on you and you end up really needin somebodys help and realize how foolish and short sighted all the shit u used to say is.

I been on the street, I been without a place to stay, I been hungry as a child, as a adolecent, as a teen ager, all thru growing up and not becuz my mother was irresponsible or my pops was no good becuz they worked hard and STILL COULD NOT MAKE ENDS MEET, cuz sometimes life SUCKS and is OUT OF YOUR CONTROL. Sometimes your house fuckin floods over and over and over several times a year and you cant get no insurance for it and cant afford to move and you gotta just keep gettin FUCKED and watchin your house get ruined. Sometimes your cars just keep breakin the fuck down every time you fix them, and its just one thing after the fuckin nother everydamnday. Sometimes you get hit by a driver who was not lookin at the road and slams into you at 55 mph and almost kills you, destroys ur car and u cant get no damn money becuz the insurance companies are cocksuckers and wont pay out even tho you got a police report sayin the other driver was 100% at fault, and you could not afford a luxury policy so you are injured and aint got a car, too hurt to work, and losin money. And I am suppose to believe that somehow, in that situation my family should not get a fuckin PENNY of state aid when we end up fuckin starvin our asses off in the cold, becuz WE PUR OURSELVES THERE???

As a kid it was not a un common thing to flip the light switch and get nothin. How was that my fault? How can you tell me that as a little ass kid that I didnt deserve to have fuckin, LIGHT, a WORKIN REFRIGERATOR becuz it was something *I* failed to do tha tput me there? My bad, as a 5 yr old should i have went and made up a great cover letter with my resume with all my activities from college and sent it to a local company and just been persistent till I got the job?

Growin up and even STILL, after i left home and then had to come back to my folks house when i could not afford to be out there no more, even still THIS WINTER I been livin with the heat turned off, no hot water, every couple days all winter long for as long as i can remember its like that. And I aint sayin that cuz u shoudl feel sorry, cuz u shouldnt and I know you dont have no relationship to me or know me and why would you feel sorry. That aint my point the point is that maybe if you had experienced some of these situations that YOU KNOW you didnt cause, you would not be so damn judgemental about how YOU PERSONALLY BELIEVE that some people get there. (Which is pretty different from how they actually got there 90% of the time. sure there is the assholes and waste of life low life scum bags who just suck at life and totally deserve the life they got, but that is FARRRR from bein the majority. Its mostly ppl that COULD be YOU, but they had a couple different cards in their hand than you did and ended up somwhere worse.)


Anyways, enough about me, my point was to show how weak the arguement of "free market you get wat u deserve and u are responsible for where u at". you can come on BL and say shit like we should not have a single public assistance program becuz u clearly dont understand or choose to ignore or fuck if i know how it dont get into your equation,that removin all those programs creates huge issues with more homelessness, crime, drugs, etc. that you STILL END UP PAYING FOR ANYWAYS WITH YOUR TAXES thru incarceration, etc.

The part that should be attatched to the end of the "I believe in a capitalist country and thats how it works and you deserve to be responsible for yourself" is "I agree with this because I WAS BORN INTO A BETTER POSITION! I went to college, i had a up bringing in a well off family, and had all the advantages of the upper middle class american, but I TOTALLY DID ALL THAT MYSELF! It was my hard work that got me into college. It was my hard work that got me a good job. It didnt have a damn thing to do with the fact that the place i STARTED OUT AT, was 10 times higher than the place in life that millions of people will never even reach by the end of their life no matter how hard they try. And ME, gettin born into a good family and ending up where Im at in life--that was all me. I did that. Even tho if i had not started out where i did, it wouldnt be so likely, but i still take all the credit for my parents bank account balances when they fucked and had me."
 
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Great post lacey k.

I just wonder how some people rationalize it being a 'choice' to work for shit wages and not even be able to afford a new pair of shoes....how these people 'chose' that situation, and its their fault. They signed their lease and work contract, so obviously they chose to work for shit wages and pay 70% of their income in rent for a tiny place. right? 5 year olds are just lazy, leeching off the rich.

They consider paying taxes to be theft.....And what is rent? Its a tax you have to pay to live in a house and survive. Taxes are a type of rent you have to pay to live in a society, and its on a sliding scale.

Now, I dont always agree with what taxes are spent on....I would rather divert funds away from trying to police the world, build more rehabs and fewer prisons, have a smaller more efficient military for defense purposes only and use what we save to promote education and prosperity....investing in the future isnt a handout...its an investment. It enriches the entire society we live in, which in turn enriches the profiteers. The greatest countries on earth have free education....You think we would maintain that if we made education a privilege like healthcare is? What countries are gaining on us? Western/Northern Europe and Japan. What do they have in common? Massive investments in educating the common people. Thats not a giveaway. Society gets something in return.

NCUK said:
i wish they had bupe. when i first went into treatment..... i may have been able to avoid a 10 year methadone habit. on the other hand methadone over the last 50 years has saved countless lives, saved family relationships, and held millions of otherwise destitute drug addicts seek gainful employment. as long as you follow the guidelines of the program it can be a godsend. many of the deaths involved with methadone are caused by abuse form opiate-nieve people stealing or buying other peoples scripts.
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I am not a doctor and I agree 100% with comment about it being between doctors and their patients....whats right for one person might not be right for somebody else.

Whatever medications become available, I dont think we should just cut people off....what good could possibly come from denying people their medications? You want a half million drug addicts to suddenly be without their drugs and desperately trying to do anything they can to scrape together some money or perhaps go score some heroin? You will instantly increase the amount of crime in your own community, see productive citizens unable to work, end up spending more money housing more prisoners for non-violent crimes.....Methadone has gone generic and doestnt cost much. The facilities are the most expensive part, and its not some ridiculous high cost. Bupe is a newer drug, but it doesnt require the same facilities so it saves money in different ways.

I dont see a lot of good coming from ending these programs, though I personally would not choose methadone.
 
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