So.... who cares about the meth addicts?

[hyroller]

Ideally one would want to taper off the stims until they are no longer required...
Unlike with long-term opioid abuse, it's not like our pain receptors are going to be shot to shit for an elongated period of time.. which would ultimately make the chance of recovery even greater, given adequate treatment.

Of course there are other measures one needs to take in life to ensure that their energy levels (mental and otherwise) and such are restored, alongside any 'prescribed' pharmacological dose. But it is seems drastically insufficient to me, that there are no options available at the very least, and not much in the pipeline from what I've read outside of this post

It's not like someone invites this, or any type of dependence into their life. When a person clearly no longer wants to fiend, and still wants to lead an adequately active lifestyle, why should their needs be swept under the carpet...? then again, they're just a bunch of raging tweakers - a cultural taboo made manifest in this day & age

 

[person]

Here in nz CADS are currently doing trials in prescribing ritialin or dexamphetamine on daily dispensary to meth addicts. Only in the main centres like wellington, auckland, christchurch. not only that but the benzo scene is huge here I remember asking doc for sleeping meds cos I was a meth addict several years ago, was prescribed x60 per month/halcion for meth addiction.
LOL.

 

[MrIbis]

who really gives two shits about meth addicts? there is very little we can do for them - the medications available to them (dexamphetamine and other stimulants like MDPV, Modafinil etc) will still cause long term damage.

The drug seeking behavior is unlikely to stop, as these stated medications do not have any antagonistic properties to speak of, so meth abuse on top is just as likely.

All that aside, meth is NO WHERE NEAR as addictive, physically, as heroin or opiates. And really is just mental - its really a matter of do you want to look good, feel great and fit in with society? or do you wanna look like that junkie chick, in a house full of 15-21yo's shooting meth, robbing people and shooting meth again? - when it gets to that point with meth, you need to make a choice and break the cycle, become human - and it's really that simple.

If you cant get out of bed without meth - perhaps you should have thought about the behaviors that lead you there? or if you have some underlying issue like ADD or something similar? Meth is a truly terrible drug, that lots of users don't seem to understand or fathom the real danger behind it. how easy it is to get caught in the meth hole - and think, you're not a junkie, its just meth... even if you smoke it, snort it whatever. The truth is also that you cant expect to to just dry out, and go back to every day life, you most likely will have to leave your circle of friends, take 3-4 weeks off, dry out, on your own, with a bottle of valium. Then rehabilitate yourself into society again, a society minus what you had before. It is not easy. But its a lifestyle change that you must adhear to.

Opiate treatment takes months, if not years.

For someone like me, its a different story, i seem to be able to clean out from a major opiate bender in about 3 months, and feel human again. and from meth, when i used it in my younger days, i did not want to use it for more than 2 days straight.

Also, the medications available will still get you high. I don't know if you know this but - bupe and methadone - DO NOT GET OPIATE ADDICTS HIGH. They quell the withdrawal, until you can get your life sorted out and liveable, then you still have to go thru it all.

 

[I'm__Broken__]

Mr Ibis, you make some good points, but you could have chosen to deliver them in a little more productive way. "Who gives a shit about meth addicts." you say? Lots of people. Their families, friends, partners, and myself included.

There's also lots of people that don't give a shit about them - just as there are a lot of people that don't give a shit about heroin addicts, alcoholics, cigarette smokers - it all depends on the person. There'd be plenty of people out there that look at you as just as much a piece of shit as they would a meth addict, simply because you just use recreational drugs.

These are the kind of attitudes we should be avoiding, and I don't think simply giving up on treatment because it looks to be quite a challenging undertaking is not at all the way to go about things.

Drug addiction depends on the individual, and although the symptoms of amphetamine withdrawals are not in the same area as opiate withdrawal, they can most definitely manifest themselves in a physical way, and can hugely impact someone if they're predisposed to addiction to that drug (whether from environmental or physical factors in their life).

It's not a competition between opiate and meth addiction.

 

[katmeow]

Mr Ibis - Whilst it may not be as addictive as opiates physically, I think the general problem with meth (and any problematic drug use for that matter) is the lifestyle that is the most difficult to change. Yes, in simple terms breaking the cycle is all it takes but human beings are generally habitual creatures and it's not that easy for most people to create new habits. This can just as easily be applied to other things (food, exercise, study etc). Making mental changes can be just as difficult (if not more so) than adjusting to any physical ill effects.

Anyhow, really interesting thread

Footscrazy, what kind of long term support is being provided as part of the Access Point program?

 

[blacktusk]

I think personally it's because here in Australia heroin users are seen as hopeless addicts who have no control over their addiction, whereas methamp users are seen as jacked up assholes who like nothing better to do than stim off their head and fight people. I know this isn't the actual case but the general public seem to see it like that. People seem to feel sorry for heroin users, whereas people just outright hate 'ice heads'.

 

[Jabberwocky]

who really gives two shits about meth addicts? there is very little we can do for them - the medications available to them (dexamphetamine and other stimulants like MDPV, Modafinil etc) will still cause long term damage.

The drug seeking behavior is unlikely to stop, as these stated medications do not have any antagonistic properties to speak of, so meth abuse on top is just as likely.

that's not a real fair way to look at it, youve been/going through opiate addiction and i'm sure you know what it's like to be fucked by the system in one way or another. these people deserve help as any other addict does. i don't think long term programs are the answer though.

there's probably just as many people, if not more, on the ORT programs taking more than they deserve. methadone has no antagonistic properties, it just saturates your receptors and theres ways to get around that albeit it mainly dangerous routes. buprenorphine can still be abused, the nalaxone in it does nothing to disuade anyone. it's also easy enough to taper to a low enough dose of bupe to take doses of other opiates that break through when youre on the suboxone formulation, same as subutex. i could still take other opiates on top of the norspan patches i wore for pain management.

it still comes down to the user, all the drug aides and psychological support in the world could be at hand. but it can be argued theres also some people who need these drugs to live functional lives.

i do agree on the point you make about the dex being bad to peoples health long term. i've never really looked at methamphetamine replacement as a long term strategy as most people seem to agree on in here.

All that aside, meth is NO WHERE NEAR as addictive, physically, as heroin or opiates. And really is just mental - its really a matter of do you want to look good, feel great and fit in with society? or do you wanna look like that junkie chick, in a house full of 15-21yo's shooting meth, robbing people and shooting meth again? - when it gets to that point with meth, you need to make a choice and break the cycle, become human - and it's really that simple.

snip

ive been addicted to IV meth before for long periods of time and disagree with all of that. try putting yourself in the shoes of every individual thats been addicted to meth, everyone has their own inner demons to battle.

Opiate treatment takes months, if not years.

For someone like me, its a different story, i seem to be able to clean out from a major opiate bender in about 3 months, and feel human again. and from meth, when i used it in my younger days, i did not want to use it for more than 2 days straight.

be thankful you're like that with meth. when i use these days i still get the urge to go on 5 day runs but have the self control and smarts about me not too. it's just no feasible for me either. in the past ive had huge problems controlling these urges and kept throwing myself back in the cycle normally after a few weeks of clean time. it's just something i've grown out of now i guess, i still get the desire sometime but it quickly passes without too much though, long before i give myself time to act on it anyway.

opiates on the otherhand are a different story at the moment, i can't help myself. i'm in a bad routine at the moment. i've got the psychological support of shrinks, therapists, counsel workers, etc but i haven't got the pharmacotherapy available to me at the moment which is something i personally need long term because of my chronic pain.

Also, the medications available will still get you high. I don't know if you know this but - bupe and methadone - DO NOT GET OPIATE ADDICTS HIGH. They quell the withdrawal, until you can get your life sorted out and liveable, then you still have to go thru it all.

again, i disagree. you only have to read through some topics in OD to realise how many are still getting high on their maintenance programs. by a number of different means

You could try taper them down, but without some serious commitment from the user and a lot of lifestyle changes and psychological care, chances are they'd slip back into meth use as soon as sobriety or their shrinking doseage of dexies isn't doing it for them anymore. If you limit the timeframe of the program, if they're not ready to quit they'll just fall right back into their old ways, and if you don't, then the program is just throwing free speed at people, who'll continue to deteriorate from their useage.

It's a tough one, I think that there is a place for drugs, but nothing that has been discovered yet, really, unless anti depressants work for you. I actually think CBT and acceptance based therapies, as well as mindfullness, meditation etc, are the most powerful tools to deal with meth withdrawal. It still sucks though.

crankinit, i'm not disagreeing with you here because i understand your points, but that argument would have been(is) used against the ORT programs. until we trial these programs out we're not going to have the statistics to know whether these programs are viable or not. i see it as a step in the right direction, something is better than nothing at the moment. let's have the drug replacement(for those that need it) therapy coincided with these types of therapies footscrazy mentioned out there. more and more ORT programs are heading this way.

I definitely think detoxes are designed for opiate/alcohol/benzo users and prob really more necessary for them anyway, I never saw any great benefit of me going to detox for 10 days off meth in a residential setting.

everytime i've detoxed myself from meth i've always cut myself from the outside world until i felt ready i could communicate and function like a human again. it just seems the easiest way for me to deal with that agonising first couple of weeks of everything leveling out again. the last thing i need after being up for most of the last month is some bitch knocking on my door every couple of hours when all i'm trying to do is catch up with sleep and rid off all those dark thoughts.

some people might gain from being in a residential setting but it's not for me either.

 

[Crankinit]

crankinit, i'm not disagreeing with you here because i understand your points, but that argument would have been(is) used against the ORT programs. until we trial these programs out we're not going to have the statistics to know whether these programs are viable or not. i see it as a step in the right direction, something is better than nothing at the moment. let's have the drug replacement(for those that need it) therapy coincided with these types of therapies footscrazy mentioned out there. more and more ORT programs are heading this way.

Yeah I'd certainly support some exploration down that road to try and find a working replacement therapy for amphetamines, I just think the major reason it hasn't been explored to the same extent as opiate addiction, other than it being a newer phenomenon, is that the answer isn't as clear cut as 'take *, withdrawals stop.' There are a lot more factors that come into play with lifestyle adjustments, allowing healing from the damage caused by the drug, whether you detox the user to allow them to hit baseline then start treatment to prevent relapse v. swapping straight into treatment to prevent the month + slump of 'cant get out of bed without gear', etc etc etc. And finding a viable medication to use as a replacement is a huge challenge.

I think some combination of modafinil (provide alertness and prevent the post-meth fatigue) and something to boost dopamine levels (ideally an antidepressant like bupropion, but maybe start with a DRI like methylphenidate/desoxypipradol/MDPV to initially boost dopamine levels, then slowly taper and swap to bupriopion), with intensive therapy and lifestyle adjustment, would be a good start. And on top of that maybe a look into different neuroprotective/nootropic treatments to help abate or reverse the neurotoxicity caused by chronic amphetamine abuse. I think any type of amphetamine would just perpetuate the problem if used as a long term treatment, and any one drug by itself is likely to be ineffective, but that's not to dismiss the idea out of hand, and if it were found to work I'd support it.

All that aside, meth is NO WHERE NEAR as addictive, physically, as heroin or opiates. And really is just mental - its really a matter of do you want to look good, feel great and fit in with society? or do you wanna look like that junkie chick, in a house full of 15-21yo's shooting meth, robbing people and shooting meth again? - when it gets to that point with meth, you need to make a choice and break the cycle, become human - and it's really that simple.

If you cant get out of bed without meth - perhaps you should have thought about the behaviors that lead you there? or if you have some underlying issue like ADD or something similar? Meth is a truly terrible drug, that lots of users don't seem to understand or fathom the real danger behind it. how easy it is to get caught in the meth hole - and think, you're not a junkie, its just meth... even if you smoke it, snort it whatever. The truth is also that you cant expect to to just dry out, and go back to every day life, you most likely will have to leave your circle of friends, take 3-4 weeks off, dry out, on your own, with a bottle of valium. Then rehabilitate yourself into society again, a society minus what you had before. It is not easy. But its a lifestyle change that you must adhear to.

The exact same argument could be made for opiate addicts. 'just lock yourself in your house, tough out the w/d's with some valium then cut off all your using friends.' It's absurd really and downplays the constellation of psychological/socioeconomic factors that lead to somebody developing an addiction in the first place.

 

[boodha]

Opiate recovery programs are not only aimed at people who were/are using opiates illegally also,

this is an important point,

Meth addiction and Opiate addiction are completely different beasts, it dosn't surprise me that there is clinical rehabilitation programs for Opiates.

and any addiction treatment program would be valid for Meth addicts, and opiate addicts, but there is a larger scope of necessity for opiate maintenance programs,

some people NEED opiates,

NO-ONE NEEDS meth.

 

[footscrazy]

^^What about people with ADD or narcolepsy? desoxyn (methamphetamine) has legitimate uses.

 

[drug_mentor]

MrIbis, I have to disagree with you on a lot of what you say. You really have belittled meth addiction which I think is unfair and surprising coming from somebody who admits to havign struggled with drug addiction themselves.

Yes, opiates are physically addictive and amphetamines are not, but I ask, how does one manage to get hooked to the point of having severe withdrawals without first being mentally addicted? It is obvious that if someone keeps using daily they will get physically addicted so to willingly do that they probably are already dependant on the drug imho.

I think addiction is much more mental than physical, I admit I have never undergone opiate withdrawals, but it seems to me like that pain stacked up against the long term pain of the lifestyle many opiate addicts are forced to live would be minimal, yet many do not think this way because they mentally justify their addiction. In my experience physical pain is a lot easier to deal with than mental/emotional pain.

If you really think that all that keeps people hooked on smack is the withdrawals then how do you explain methadone and buprenorphine not having 100% success rates?

This isn't a personal attack against you but I strongly disagree with your post and wouldn't be surprised if you have offended a good number of people who have struggled with meth addiction. Drug users and especially drug addicts are persecuted by enough of society, theres no need for elitism or trying to make out one serious addiction is somehow more valid or serious than another, especially if the argument is based solely on the presence of physical withdrawals or not.

 

[hyroller]

MrIbis, we've been getting the picture for some time on here that you don't give a flying fuck about anyone except yourself. And maybe your own sorry, intermittently heroin-afflicted lifestyle. Bully for you, I say. I've tried smack on 3 different occasions in the past 3 years and do you know what? Each time was just as shithouse as the last. How anyone can enjoy the feeling of being an apathetic sponge is beyond me - but, as stipulated above, bully for you. It's not a competition to get high - and at least with opiates you can continue to GET high - with stims, you begin to aim for a baseline for functionality, and settle for that.

Fact: many, in fact most of the regular meth-dependent people I know are fully functional human beings, who hold down honest jobs to pay for their habits. Even if, like myself, you only use an average of 3 days a week, the effects from doing this for a good 2+ years are very noticeable, not that it would occur to you that this would be the case.

I am not suggesting long-term treatment, but there needs to be a go-between for people who wish to maintain their daily life commitments alongside stopping the use of illicit stims, i.e. a valid, government-funded, government-endorsed, take-home detoxification program. Which, at present, has not been put in to place... but, seeing as the need has been identified amongst a number of people that I know, I really do think we need to find a way of making this a higher priority - especially with the number of increasingly younger kids I am seeing slipping into the rabbit hole of a meth habit

And believe you me, physical meth withdrawals are very real and very present, you try staying the fuck awake during business hours on caffeine alone, when we all know caffeine isn't even a blip on the radar for any long-term speed or ice user.

 

[footscrazy]

MrIbis, I have to disagree with you on a lot of what you say. You really have belittled meth addiction which I think is unfair and surprising coming from somebody who admits to havign struggled with drug addiction themselves.

Yes, opiates are physically addictive and amphetamines are not, but I ask, how does one manage to get hooked to the point of having severe withdrawals without first being mentally addicted? It is obvious that if someone keeps using daily they will get physically addicted so to willingly do that they probably are already dependant on the drug imho.

I think addiction is much more mental than physical, I admit I have never undergone opiate withdrawals, but it seems to me like that pain stacked up against the long term pain of the lifestyle many opiate addicts are forced to live would be minimal, yet many do not think this way because they mentally justify their addiction. In my experience physical pain is a lot easier to deal with than mental/emotional pain.

If you really think that all that keeps people hooked on smack is the withdrawals then how do you explain methadone and buprenorphine not having 100% success rates?

This isn't a personal attack against you but I strongly disagree with your post and wouldn't be surprised if you have offended a good number of people who have struggled with meth addiction. Drug users and especially drug addicts are persecuted by enough of society, theres no need for elitism or trying to make out one serious addiction is somehow more valid or serious than another, especially if the argument is based solely on the presence of physical withdrawals or not.

+1
I agree.

 

[MrIbis]

To all who are, peeved by my post.

I'm not having a go at anyone elses struggle - im speaking from what i've seen - they're totally different types of addiction. I was once a heavy meth user.

And now im not using smack at all - and beginning already to taper off buprenorphine.

Most of my post was about the difference in the types of treatments that would be available - if any of you read past the belittling of meth addiction from my perspective. The only way to get off meth is simply to dry out. substituting it for more bloody stimulants won't help you. it'll just prolong the inevitable. It's completely different to opiates..

Really i don't even want to argue, because - from all the people i had this conversation with after reading this thread - meth addicts and opiate addicts alike - all agreed.

Bupe and methadone programs don't have 100% success rates - and leftwing, despite what you reckon - anyone with a half serious opiate tollerance really wont get fuck all pleasure from abusing bupe or methadone. I daresay someone abusing MDPV or Modafinil probably would. And that is my point - the treatments just won't work the way you'd like them to.

Anyway, posting right now is completely pointless, im totally fried from all the grog last night. And its not that i don't care about other people, because im the most selfless cunt around. Meth is bad news, and how anyone can want to be up on the shit every day is beyond me - psychosis is hardly pleasureable... or is it?

Perhaps methheads do deserve a fair go - but from what hyroller says, its quite likely she may have some underlying issue thats causing her tiredness etc, and she's using illicits where proper medicine could be employed...

aww god im rambling again.

Look i didn't mean to offend anybody - i figured most people who've battled with addictions would probably agree with me on these topics.

 

[MrIbis]

And... I was actually once a fucking extremely heavy meth user.

You wanna know how to get off meth? Really wanna know...

Think about, the fucking come down. How painful, how shitful, how pathetic it is, sitting around all day, feeling sorry for yourself, depressed about your miserable existence. And know the only way to fuck that feeling off, is being lucky and having a nice bottle full of benzos, smoking more meth (there by delaying the inevitable, and pushing you closer to psychosis) - or necking yourself.

It really is that simple. its a lifestyle choice - and a simple thought process that you need to evaluate how worth it, it is to use meth.

sorry if i offended anyone again. but thats how i got off the crap.

 

[footscrazy]

Meth is bad news, and how anyone can want to be up on the shit every day is beyond me - psychosis is hardly pleasureable... or is it?

All that aside, meth is NO WHERE NEAR as addictive, physically, as heroin or opiates. And really is just mental - its really a matter of do you want to look good, feel great and fit in with society? or do you wanna look like that junkie chick, in a house full of 15-21yo's shooting meth, robbing people and shooting meth again? - when it gets to that point with meth, you need to make a choice and break the cycle, become human - and it's really that simple.

You're assuming that everyone reacts the same way to meth as you though. For me personally, I rarely 'come down' at all, in fact I enjoy being scattered. So evaluating it in that way will not be a deterrence to using again. And again, it's not as black and white as 'looking good, feeling great and fitting in with society' or being a junkie chick robbing people. Many people (including myself) have managed to 'fit in' to society whilst being addicted to meth - continuing to work, study and be productive. So for these people it's not just a 'simple' choice - when evaluating the pros and cons, the outcome hasn't been as black and white as perhaps is was when you evaluated your addiction.

For someone who is still generally productive on meth, quitting can actually greatly reduce that productivity and this is something someone wanting to quit meth has to take into consideration. I agree that phamacotherapy is not the answer for meth addiction. But that doesn't mean it is as simple as just 'putting mind over matter'.

 

[Sustanon]

I find that ice is so destructive for me. After i use it i feel totally different likes it not me. I get very bad anxiety, feel emotionally drained, angry, cant sleep, cant think, cant eat, suicidal thoughts and many more. I realized that this drug isnt made for me.

 

[sydkiwi]

Im with a few people here. They've had centuries to develop rehab programs for opiate addictions. Meth addiction on the other hand is relatively new. Give them time to find and develop program options that work.

 

[Alice_Chipper]

Originally Posted by footscrazy
Many people (including myself) have managed to 'fit in' to society whilst being addicted to meth - continuing to work, study and be productive.

I'm with you. I've been dependent on meth for years and have continued to work, study and maintain my relationships with family and friends. I've never committed a crime (besides using illicit drugs) and I haven't gone psychotic or become aggressive.

I also do not want to use meth anymore (at least to the same degree as what I do now & have done so for years) but I am stuck on how to make this change. I gave counselling a shot for over a year and this did not alter my drug use. I also live a comfortable life and this makes programs that try to address drug use by getting you stable in housing/education/social networks etc irrelevant for my situation. I've even tried personal things like keeping track of how much money I spend on drugs (in hope that seeing the large amount will deter me) and rewarding myself if I go a day without meth. At this stage I'm hoping I'll grow out of it.

I am not sure what the answer is (obviously) but I definitely think more thought needs to go into this. The stereotype of the meth addict needs to be broken too. It isn't representative or helpful.

 

[hoptis]

MDPV is a recreational substance with no real potential as a substitute. From everything we're hearing it would have a social cost possibly even worse than meth.

Modafinil has no recreational value and I haven't heard of anything that could be described as a "long-term effect".

A substitute isn't meant to be a long-term solution, if anything can assist recovery or reduce harmful drug use, why shouldn't it be considered?