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Doctors who pretend narcotics don't exist

lets all get caught doctor shopping and fuck up our future chances of being treated rightly when were in pain8)

The doctor shopping he refers to is legal. If you go to a doctor and they prescribe you something you don't want, you're certainly free to see an alternative doctor and ignore the first one's advice. You just need to keep trying new doctors until one prescribes you a legitimate, working narcotic... assuming you have the time and money for that.
 
That sucks. When I broke some bones in my hand a few days before Christmas at the end of last year, I told the doctors that I had abused opiates in the past so codeine wouldn't cut it. With a dissapointed look on his face he nodded then scripted me 10mg IR oxys and 50mg tramadols, can't remember the quantities. Had an awesome Christmas though =D ;)
 
I've never really had that problem in the states. I got prescribed 20 7.5mg vicodins after I had all my wisdom teeth pulled. I called em later the same day to say that they weren't cutting it and got a script for 40 4mg dilaudid. I went back 8 days later and they asked if I wanted a refill lol
 
Chew on this: in many countries, opiate painkillers simply do not exist. Not even auto accident victims or cancer patients get them. The entitlement many Americans feel toward obtaining these drugs is really astounding, in light of this.

Even in the US, many doctors believe in scripting opiate painkillers only as a last resort, for acute pain that's utterly debilitating, or when guaranteed analgesia is needed to perform a surgical procedure. The US DEA is unequivocal about this: Opiates are to be scripted as little as possible. I don't think ANYONE should show up at ANY doctor's office, no matter their presenting complaint, EXPECTING to be scripted them; they're the only treatment indicated for pretty much no diagnoses.

Many doctors believe in being parsimonious with the scheduled substances because their career is on the line. They don't want to be a target for doctor shoppers. Nor do they want to be investigated by the DEA, or brought before the Board. Enabling an addiction, also, clearly violates the Hippocratic Oath.

Let's go over the examples you gave me. I am to show you that opiate painkillers are clearly implicated in few, if any, of them:

1.) Last summer I pulled a muscle in my back playing baseball. Walking was difficult, but I made it to the University clinic. I told him I was taking Aleve but it hurt my stomach and wasn't working. He felt around, and told me to continue taking Aleve. <--- Like he didn't even hear me.

Opiates are almost never used for muscle strains. Anti-inflammatories like ibuprofen are first line, and easier on the stomach than naproxen (Alleve). Rest, ice, compression, and elevation (RICE) are the standard treatment. You should have no pain if you're following this regimen, and aren't flexing the muscle. I see no need for opiates since you're not in constant severe pain from this injury.

2.) Last month I go in with a painful dry, non-productive cough. I tell the Dr. I'm taking Robatussin but it doesn't agree with me and fails to suppress the cough. The Dr. tells me to get rest and plenty of fluids. The obvious prescription would be for codeine or hydrocodone syrup. Doctor fails yet again.

This may come as a surprise to many, but no purported antitussive has showed any efficacy over placebo. I'm actually surprised DXM is even still available and sold as an anti-cough medication. All codeine does is depress breathing and decrease diaphragm contractility. For a nonproductive cough, that keeps you up at night, try an anti-itch medication like diphenhydramine, which will also knock you out. I really hope the doctor looked into the underlying cause of that cough, because that's not something to ignore.

3.) Finally, this week I find a family Dr. and tell her I'm experiencing tooth pain from an exposed nerve. I tell her I have a dentist appointment next month. She actually says, "Well next month is just around the corner" and ignores my pain.

This is the one case you mentioned where I think opiate painkillers might have been appropriate. All you needed was short term relief, for a highly debilitating pain that was going to be taken care of soon. My question is, why did you not contact your dentist about this? I'm betting your general practice doc shied away from scripting you a strong painkiller here, because he wasn't at all familiar with your case and your dental history. I don't know enough about dentistry to say any more about this, though.

In fact, I've never gotten a percocet prescription, even when I got my wisdom teeth pulled, got stiches in my nose from being in a fight, and stabbed myself (deep) in a kitchen accident and got stitches without any freezing.

Opiates are more standard for dental surgery, but still not guaranteed. When I had my wisdom teeth out, I was given a nerve block / local anesthetic, and 2 scripts: one for high dose Ibuprofen, one for codeine. I only took one codeine pill, and it was all I needed. I probably could've done without it. (I was a kid at the time.)

In terms of wounds, I've never heard of opiates being scripted. Irrigating the wound with a local anesthetic or a nerve block, such as lidocaine, is all that's needed to put in sutures.

I've NEVER been prescribed pain medication stronger than T3's no matter what my complaint is. Do you see this as being part of our culture? I mean, I almost feel guilty describing pain to a doctor because they either play it off, or become uncomfortable at the suggestion. It's not like I'm a junkie. These were valid medical concerns. I feel I should stop telling my physicians when I'm in pain.

On the contrary, if you're clearly not an abuser, and never have been, you might consider asking the doctor very frankly if he'd write you a script for a narcotic painkiller. Beating around the bush about this looks very suspicious. True, he may say no, in which case you should just drop it. But being upfront about this and asking very neutrally will make it much more likely he'll take you seriously as someone requesting a THERAPY, not a "drug". Don't seem too excited, or too knowledgeable, about opiate painkillers -- this makes you look like a drug seeker too, from a doctor's perspective. It's kind of like asking a girl out: make your intentions clear, and you MAY get rejected; fail to make your intentions clear, you WILL most likely get rejected.

I think it's becoming more trendy (for lack of a better term) for doctors to simply pretend narcotics don't exist. I call these doctors "homeopathic-lite" doctors because they refuse to use drugs to treat certain symptoms of their choosing.

Indeed. Scripting opiates carries a heavy potential liability, that many doctors don't want to be saddled with.

Where do you see narcotics 20 years from now? Are we going to treat cancer patients with tylenol and hugs?

With any luck, by then we'll have painkillers that are as effective analgesics as opiates, but without any mental effects or abuse potential, and we'll be able to phase out this highly controversial class of drugs. Then us doctors will be able to practice without the walls of suspicion and mistrust that opiates build between us and our patients, and between us and the government's regulatory bodies.
 
Thanks for the detailed post MDAO. Of course you're correct on all counts. However, it's strange that you should advise that I should ask openly for what I want, but at the same time pretend not to be knowledgeable. I'm a 29-year-old bio/chem student trying to get into the medical profession. If I didn't know anything about the drugs I was asking for, I'm sure my doctor would either think I'm an idiot, or lying.

I do agree that the direct approach is probably best. She's a recent residency graduate [2008] so I am a bit worried. It seems the newer doctors are being taught avoidance techniques when it comes to prescribing these analgesics.

The old school docs just whip out the prescription pad. I need me a friendly old doctor a few years from retirement.
 
Chew on this: in many countries, opiate painkillers simply do not exist. Not even auto accident victims or cancer patients get them. The entitlement many Americans feel toward obtaining these drugs is really astounding, in light of this.
i'm pretty sure this reasoning is one of the logical fallacies. interesting though. sucks for them.

Beating around the bush about this looks very suspicious
yup. if you know about drugs, and you are not a professional actor/ess, my advice is be direct with your doctor. sometimes with GPs i wait and see what they are going to script me, because a lot of time keeping your mouth shut for a minute and seeing what they write down is best, but i have handed that piece of paper back to the doc and asked for something else (with positive results) on a few occasions--with a good reason, of course. i don't often go to the doc for pain meds though, and it is a lot easier to be opinionated about psych meds.
 
i've heard of one doctor who would give people bibles instead of pain meds.

My great aunt, who was one of the most sweet, gentle, genuine souls I have ever known, was 95 years old when she passed away, and for about five years prior to that, she lived her life in terrible pain from degenerative arthritis. Although she saw her doctor regularly, she continued to suffer from uncontrolled pain, and this began to cause us all a lot of concern.

Finally, her daughter could take it no more, and called my aunt's doctor to tell him that her mother was in excruciating pain. His answer to her was, "No, when our Lord hung on the cross, that was 'excruciating pain!' " 8o

We were all outraged on her behalf, and her daughter took steps at that point to get her mother the treatment she needed and deserved. The rest of us noted the irony of a Christian doctor having so little compassion and understanding.
 
^Fuck me, are midwives going to start telling women that the pain of childbirth is their punishment for original sin? Might as well give up medicine altogether and just hold a fucking vigil.
 
Cross the border. It seems to me from years of reading BL threads that the americans get opiate painkillers more easily than anyone else, for whatever cultural reasons and despite them thinking they are being underprescribed too. Anyone knows of other countries where it's common to get 20 percocets (or some other strong opiate) after a wisdom tooth extraction?

You wouldn't likely get any opiates down here either unless you at least broke a bone AND complained a lot. Public and private sectors likewise - it's cultural, not cost related. Complaining a lot isn't so helpful in the absence of physical evidence of severe pain though. Most likely the doctor will ignore the possibility of prescribing opiates just like you said.
 
Thanks for the detailed post MDAO. Of course you're correct on all counts. However, it's strange that you should advise that I should ask openly for what I want, but at the same time pretend not to be knowledgeable. I'm a 29-year-old bio/chem student trying to get into the medical profession. If I didn't know anything about the drugs I was asking for, I'm sure my doctor would either think I'm an idiot, or lying.

It's a fine line to walk. The angle I'd take is this: "Would you be willing to write me a script for [drug]? I've found it helpful in the past, at the start of the recuperation process." Ask the question with the tone of voice of someone asking for something they're perfectly entitled to, and that they don't see any need to wheedle for or be ashamed of. Deliver that last sentence with deadpan confidence. Don't drop your voice OR seem longing or excited when you say it.

If you're with a doctor who's any good at what he does, your candor will be returned in kind, even if the answer is no: "Your condition doesn't warrant that medication."

I do agree that the direct approach is probably best. She's a recent residency graduate [2008] so I am a bit worried. It seems the newer doctors are being taught avoidance techniques when it comes to prescribing these analgesics.

Yes, this is true. The medical boards of many US states even have literature for suggested alternatives to opiates, for as many conditions as possible. Some Boards even recommend that doctors, especially non-emergency primary care doctors, cut their liabilities by phasing out their prescription of scheduled painkillers entirely.

I see myself being quite stingy with the opiate scripts, once I'm practicing. I plan on becoming as familiar as I can with all the readily available alternatives for pain management that have shown efficacy, for all the most common sources of pain.

The old school docs just whip out the prescription pad. I need me a friendly old doctor a few years from retirement.

This is because these docs don't have nearly as much to lose by being cited, are under less stringent oversight (presuming their career has been otherwise spotless), and were raised and educated during a time when opiates were assumed to be a lot psychologically safer and efficacious in the long term, than we now know them to be.

Seriously (and this goes for any future patient of mine), there are legal routes by which one may obtain opiate-class drugs, other than a doctor's prescription for a product from your local pharmacy. These tactics may be expensive or require some work on your part, but they exist, and people do them everyday. If you or anyone else wants to take matters (pain, in this case) into your own hands, and mess around with your own neurochemistry in an attempt to enhance or improve your life, that's entirely your prerogative (so long as you're not, in so doing, trashing your health, and expecting me the physician to clean up the resultant mess!) To suggest otherwise would be hypocritical of me -- Lord only knows I've gone around the 'proper channels' of the medical establishment to tweak MY neurochemistry. But don't ever expect to get your nod on with the blessing of my name and my DEA number, unless I've determined it's the only workable option you've got left.

hydroazuanacaine said:
i'm pretty sure this reasoning is one of the logical fallacies. interesting though. sucks for them.

I'm just putting things in perspective, that's all. The line between 'needed therapy' and 'luxury enhancement' is a always a very blurry one in medicine, especially when you take demographics and geography into consideration.
 
MyDoorsAreOpen, I think they should take control of opioids out of the hands of doctors and give it back to the patients.
 
^ All of them?

I think you could make a case for codeine, tramadol, and kratom being available over the counter, without abuse rates rising above what they currently are. These have very limited recreational potential -- many people flat out do not enjoy the mental effects -- but they DO stop pain. And there are precedents of them being freely available in many places, without much abuse.

Are there historical precedents for whole opium, or the stronger natural or synthetic opiate-class chemicals, being freely and affordably available, without addiction becoming a big problem? Not to say there aren't. Just not according to what I learned in school.
 
^If opiates are freely available and affordable, is addiction really a problem? I don't think that everyone would rush out and get some heroin if it was legal. When opiates were widely available, people were largely unaware of the risks they posed, including addiction. I think things would be much different now.
 
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Despite the addiction potential, everyone should be able to get some sort of opiate for any reason, without going to the bullshit corporate controlled medical system. Walgreens should carry tramadol, hydrocodone, and tylenol 4's and buying them should be no problem. If I work 40 hours a week in the system just to survive, and I think that my pain or cough is bad enough for opiates, then I should be able to take my green paper we call money and buy it...plain and simple.
 
^In the UK that's standard. You're lucky to get co-codamol.
Edit: I was replying to the post after mine. I don't know how that happened.
 
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