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  • Current Events & Politics Moderators: deficiT | tryptakid | Foreigner

US Politics the 2025 trump presidency thread

To be clear. Are you equating paying voters and political contributions to candidates?

Great catch. And they are NOT comparable necessarily. So, poor comparison on my part. Let's break them apart, shall we?

On the Musk side, courts have ruled he isn't "buying votes" but trying to get out the vote (something Democrats are very familiar with). Yes, he has his preferred candidate, but there are no strings connecting the $1m and who any citizen votes for. Honestly, if I were a Dem in Wisconsin, I'd be grabbing that money and running all the way to the voting booth, and it is a perfectly legal way to screw Musk :D

On the flipside, all those millions pouring into the campaign for Crawford (D), that's all perfectly legal as well, so long as it follows campaign finance laws. I have no reason to think it isn't. But, are you (general 'you' to anyone willing to respond) ok with that? No sense that Crawford will then be obligated towards those who funded her campaign?
 
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Because that term 'flood the zone' interested me. As I understand it, the term means something along the lines of 'If a US president makes a major policy decision every single day - they will always be the headline news'. Have I got that right? Because nobody can claim Donald Trump hasn't managed to do that. I'm not sure if he consciously does it, his advisors understand 'flooding the zone' or if he really has adopted the 'move fast and break things' paradigm.
For what it's worth, I think "flood the zone" is based on the American football term, where the idea is you send a whole bunch of receivers into a zone and overwhelm the defenders who are faced with having to decide which receiver to cover. In this case, he throws out so many ridiculous policies and tweets and crap that the opposition is overwhelmed trying to pick which is ones to stop.
But you are right that a big part of it as a approach for him is that he gets to dominate the spotlight and get endless attention, which I think is what he cares about more than anything else.
Now, some of his supporters like the Project 25 people probably are very consciously trying to "flood the zone" in order to push policy changes through.
 
No sense that Crawford will then be obligated towards those who funded her campaign?

no more or less than those donating the millions pouring into brad schimel's - her republican opponent's - campaign. no sense that schimel will be obligated towards those who funded his campaign?

campaign finance in the u.s. is not a partisan issue. it's just broken but it's hard to fix because the people who can fix it, all benefit from the status quo...

alasdair
 
But you are right that a big part of it as a approach for him is that he gets to dominate the spotlight and get endless attention, which I think is what he cares about more than anything else.

Fully agree, though I don't know how much of it is intentional at this point vs just how he is wired. Meaning, his first term it was obvious he craved the attention and would act the ass to get it. Now, it largely seems like his ego is dropped and it is more about completing the mandate he believes he has been given. But, having spent so much of his life to this point being the blustery asshole, it's second nature and he does it without effort. Congrats, I guess?

But yes, there is some intent to his 'flooding the zone' in that it lights so many fires across the landscape the media and democrats that sucked him into the quicksand in his first time find themselves now overwhelmed and not knowing where to attack him nor how. By the time they point to one thing he's done, he's moved on and lit another half dozen fires. There appears to be a strong bit of shock and awe in his approach this time - aiming wide, but coming with an army to help push that wide range of changes. Nobody anticipated this, especially given his first term. However, he is proving to be much better prepared to keep promises this go'round. I heard in an interview with Tom Homan (Border Czar) that all of this is only the first phase of at least four phases - was that in relation to the border, or Trump's overall approach? I dunno, but as fast and furious as the opening months have been, many (on the right) have their fingers crossed it will continue at this pace for a long time.
 
Trumps tariffs are being estimated to bring in about 6 trillion dollar revenue in the next decade. That's money payed by American tax payers, which would make it the largest tax increase in US history.

"Even when adjusting for inflation, that amount would be triple the tax increase put in place in 1942 to pay the cost of fighting World War II."
 
Fully agree, though I don't know how much of it is intentional at this point vs just how he is wired. Meaning, his first term it was obvious he craved the attention and would act the ass to get it. Now, it largely seems like his ego is dropped and it is more about completing the mandate he believes he has been given. But, having spent so much of his life to this point being the blustery asshole, it's second nature and he does it without effort. Congrats, I guess?

But yes, there is some intent to his 'flooding the zone' in that it lights so many fires across the landscape the media and democrats that sucked him into the quicksand in his first time find themselves now overwhelmed and not knowing where to attack him nor how. By the time they point to one thing he's done, he's moved on and lit another half dozen fires. There appears to be a strong bit of shock and awe in his approach this time - aiming wide, but coming with an army to help push that wide range of changes. Nobody anticipated this, especially given his first term. However, he is proving to be much better prepared to keep promises this go'round. I heard in an interview with Tom Homan (Border Czar) that all of this is only the first phase of at least four phases - was that in relation to the border, or Trump's overall approach? I dunno, but as fast and furious as the opening months have been, many (on the right) have their fingers crossed it will continue at this pace for a long time.
I don't know. I believe each issue or data point should be decided on its own merit. Flooding the zone with bullshit is a deceptive debating tactic which, although it may facilitate a "win" will seldom get to the truth or best outcome of any matter.
 
Take this with a large pinch of salt, but certain commontators have noted that Donald Trump could run as vice president in the next US election (whenever that is - I don't follow dates very closely). We saw Putin do just this but I would have to cast this idea to US BLers who understand the details of their constitution.

Flooding the zone has proved to be an extremely successful methodology - but there are a quite a few techniques in play. That podcast is a decent place to learn of at least some of them.

I have mentioned Helen Lewis noting that the MAGA core appear to indulge in magical thinking. Even when a causal link between two things is disproven, they will hold on to the belief.

Now if I were looking to take on the current US government, I would be searching cafefully through previous statements/tweets/whatever made by the various actors. I believe I'm correct in saying that a few cases of voltefaces and the immediate removal of those previous statements (if possible). I would be surprised if every US media outlet DIDN'T keep a copy of every one of those statements.

I don't really trust the accuracy of AI but it was interesting because there are many cases in which a person's position on an issue evolves (that is credible) but some that I have reason to doubt someone in there 60s would state a position and in there 70s believe the absolute opposite.
 
Fully agree, though I don't know how much of it is intentional at this point vs just how he is wired. Meaning, his first term it was obvious he craved the attention and would act the ass to get it. Now, it largely seems like his ego is dropped and it is more about completing the mandate he believes he has been given. But, having spent so much of his life to this point being the blustery asshole, it's second nature and he does it without effort. Congrats, I guess?

But yes, there is some intent to his 'flooding the zone' in that it lights so many fires across the landscape the media and democrats that sucked him into the quicksand in his first time find themselves now overwhelmed and not knowing where to attack him nor how. By the time they point to one thing he's done, he's moved on and lit another half dozen fires. There appears to be a strong bit of shock and awe in his approach this time - aiming wide, but coming with an army to help push that wide range of changes. Nobody anticipated this, especially given his first term. However, he is proving to be much better prepared to keep promises this go'round. I heard in an interview with Tom Homan (Border Czar) that all of this is only the first phase of at least four phases - was that in relation to the border, or Trump's overall approach? I dunno, but as fast and furious as the opening months have been, many (on the right) have their fingers crossed it will continue at this pace for a long time.

I lived for a short period in another country that I won't name here, but it would be considered a third world country.

The people were friendly and we never had any negative experiences with the government on a personal level or feared for our safety, but we witnessed situations where we could see bribes being handed to police and became aware that their was corruption at a higher level. I know people would say we have that here also, but the feel of it was totally different. It was like people just accepted it without objection because they didn't know how to try to resist it, it was just part of their lives.

I always will remember the moment I got off the flight in Seattle, when I walked off the plane I wanted to get down on my knees and kiss the ground. I really appreciated my country in that moment, I had never known before how much I loved and appreciated our freedoms. People died so we could have that.

I hope you are wrong and this does not continue for a long time.
 
Fully agree, though I don't know how much of it is intentional at this point vs just how he is wired. Meaning, his first term it was obvious he craved the attention and would act the ass to get it. Now, it largely seems like his ego is dropped and it is more about completing the mandate he believes he has been given. But, having spent so much of his life to this point being the blustery asshole, it's second nature and he does it without effort. Congrats, I guess?

But yes, there is some intent to his 'flooding the zone' in that it lights so many fires across the landscape the media and democrats that sucked him into the quicksand in his first time find themselves now overwhelmed and not knowing where to attack him nor how. By the time they point to one thing he's done, he's moved on and lit another half dozen fires. There appears to be a strong bit of shock and awe in his approach this time - aiming wide, but coming with an army to help push that wide range of changes. Nobody anticipated this, especially given his first term. However, he is proving to be much better prepared to keep promises this go'round. I heard in an interview with Tom Homan (Border Czar) that all of this is only the first phase of at least four phases - was that in relation to the border, or Trump's overall approach? I dunno, but as fast and furious as the opening months have been, many (on the right) have their fingers crossed it will continue at this pace for a long time.

I lived for a short period in another country that I won't name here, but it would be considered a third world country.

The people were friendly and we never had any negative experiences with the government on a personal level or feared for our safety, but we witnessed situations where we could see bribes being handed to police and became aware that their was corruption at a higher level. I know people would say we have that here also, but the feel of it was totally different. It was like people just accepted it without objection because they didn't know how to try to resist it, it was just part of their lives.

I always will remember the moment I got off the flight in Seattle, when I walked off the plane I wanted to get down on my knees and kiss the ground. I really appreciated my country in that moment, I had never known before how much I loved and appreciated our freedoms. People died so we could have that.

I hope you are wrong and this does not continue for a long time.
 
Yeah - most of Africa is on that scale, sadly.

Someone tried to pickpocket me but nearly got a thrashing. Ran. 10 seconds later two policemen who had been stood around a corner listening asked how much had been stolen. Doesn't take a genius to work out they worked in concert.

Even in the UK the police can be bribed - often for trivial things. Like fast food outlets parking their vehicles on double-yellow lines. I pointed this out to a bus driver who just said 'they get free food from those takeaways'. But it's the thin end of the wedge. If you look the other way for small things - everything else is simply haggling a price.
 
I always like the title of the movie, "A Few Good Men." I know that a few good men have been able to shape destinies in the past and will again. It starts with us.

"Instead of cursing the darkness, light a candle."
Author Unknown

Similarly there is:
hard times create strong men,
strong men create good times,
good times create weak men,
and weak men create hard times

A cyclical view of history, often attributed to the author G. Michael Hopf. Tho, I like your quote a bit more in that it makes the reader both empowered and responsible/accountable for their future, as opposed to 'other' men.
 
I think post election people have been in shock and groping to find a way forward.

I agree that's exactly what's been happening.
That's how it affected me.

Me too. I can hardly even watch the late night shows

There's a lot of sayings to provide comfort:
This too shall pass
Nothing lasts forever
Anything man creates can be destroyed (meaning undoing a previous admin's deeds)


I recognize there is a bit of buzz recently about Trump and a third term. I don't know how much of your angst is anchored on the individual vs the MAGA movement. For the individual, I will say that many on the right do not believe he is serious on a third term, but stranger things have come out of his mouth and weirdness likes to fuck with the universe sometimes. That said, there are MANY on the right who would not support such an effort. 2 terms is the limit, find someone else.

If you are concerned with the MAGA movement, which is overlapping but not the same as conservatism, well that may be around a bit longer. Depending upon how successful this administration is at swinging the pendulum back from where Obama pushed it and Biden pushed it further....America may want a bit more time on the other end of the pendulum swing and keep pushing it that way as seen by the amount of support Trump had in the last election. If he and his cabinet continue to lie to us, or make steps to damage life for our population, well that will pull voters away from them and their direction. However, for now, it was pretty clear that the majority of Americans did not want the Democratic direction. At all. With that, maybe recognize that your values and view of what should be aren't necessarily aligned with everyone else, only half the country ;). But bottom line, we have to learn to exist together or not at all. This means tearing down a lot of the division that has been sown over the past 2 decades and work to rediscover common ground, that our opponents aren't enemies, and we're all in this together.

I do apologize if ya'll are not American, I can really only speak from my perspective, limited as it may be.
 
Trump got elected (by 1.3%) because people took many of these statements literally. Maybe his dedicated base just accepts the fact that his shit ain't true, but that's not what the people that swung the election his way think.

First, consider that while half the voting population voted for Trump it was also a vote against Obama/Biden/Kamala. And, the DNC did itself no favors in how it handled the lead up to the elections (hiding Biden's health, he is running, no he isn't, Kamala you got 3 months to make a run, etc). So, not all the votes were 'for Trump', as a lot were 'against Dems'. And frankly, can anyone say what the Dems promised should they win? They were rudderless, without a message (other than BRAT! and hiring Beyonce and Hollywood to stand up for them) and without a good messenger (Kamala was abysmal, until Walz made her look better in comparison). So yeah, A lot voted FOR Trump, but a lot voted against Democrats.

This is particularly true of grocery prices. And there, at the very least, his promises were immediately abandoned and not used as a starting point.

i haven’t heard a single mention of grocery prices from the administration other than them telling us to stop complaining about it.

I haven’t heard a single Trump supporter complain about grocery or health care costs.

Because it's been 70 days since he took office. I outlined elsewhere in responding to Ali about what Trump can do on day 1, and what he's done. But for real economic impact it takes awhile for policies to be in effect (not challenged in courts) and for things to loosen back up. Also, you're not hearing it from the right because we have other priorities. Biden has us living with the worst inflation in our lifetimes, we've gotten numb to it - doesn't mean we like it, but it isn't the thorn in our side that other priorities are - things like transparency, and equal application of the law (and finding out who/when/why it was applied unfairly), etc. Trump has gone shotgun out of the gate since taking office, going after a fistful of differeing issues daily. Frankly, it has been incredible how wide spread his changes have been, but they've also not been paper thin - they have his staff behind them, working hard to implement the significant changes so many of us wanted. So while we continue to pay more for groceries than we'd like, we have other priorities that need attention first.

Unlike communist price controls (hey there, Kamala!) that dictate price regardless of reality, there are actually a few other factors that need to be considered. For example, Biden admin killing 100m chickens since 2022 for bird flu. Guess what, less chickens means less eggs; less eggs means the price goes up. In a related story, Biden shut down domestic oil production. Guess what, more expensive oil means fuel prices rise effecting farming, transport from farms to cities, and where does that extra cost end up? In the price of eggs. Trump's already addressing domestic oil availability, trying to get us back to being energy independent like when he last left office, and in doing so now has a lever on the world's energy prices as opposed to being it's bitch and paying what others ask.

Health care? Again, 70d. What do you believe he could have done by now on that one? Especially when it requires a literal act of congress to change it? He needs to have someone in his cabinet deeply engaged with the right congressional committees, but what we have heard is zilch. Which leads us to believe he has done ... zilch, on that front. But again, we're used to the pain at this point, it's a lower priority.
 
So while we continue to pay more for groceries than we'd like, we have other priorities that need attention first.

this feels like the start of our going in circles :)

yeah, fair enough. but...

if you have other priorities that need attention first, he shouldn't have made such a huge deal - a priority, if you will - about solving the problem of high groceries on day 1. he absolutely hammered the issue in his campaign. a lot of people voted for him because of that. even trump himself said it was the reason he won the election.

maybe, if he had said "vote for me and you'll continue to pay more for groceries than you'd like, we have other priorities that need attention first" he wouldn't have had the luxury of ignoring one of his key campaign promises...

i've said it before but if you vote for trump based on something - anything - he says, what are you actually voting for?

i agree with your point about voting against democrats as a factor.

Health care? Again, 70d. What do you believe he could have done by now on that one?

he hasn't had 70 days. he had 4 years and 70 days. repealing obamacare and replacing it with something "much better" was a central campaign promise of his first campaign. if you want to read a timeline of absolute bullshit and lies on this: Fact-checking Trump's 'repeal and replace' Obamacare timeline

as i mentioned before, for the first 2 years (over 700 days...) of his first term he had republican majorities in both the house and the senate and he got nothing done on healthcare.

if you voted for trump based on a cornerstone promise of his first campaign, what did you vote for?

alasdair
 
if you voted for trump based on a cornerstone promise of his first campaign, what did you vote for?
I’m only convinced that the boomers voted to watch the working generation get crushed and suffer so they could sit back and enjoy the pain exacted upon a generation that they hate one last time before they die, from the comfort of their paid for retirement set up. This is about revenge for them for society dismantling their way of life.

They hate have seen Society become more progressive, they hate having seen blacks become unsegregsted, they hate having witnessed the fall of Christianity in society -; they hate seeing women go from housemakers to surpassing men in education and pedigree - becoming independent; they want to punish society for this shift. They don’t care about destroying society because they won’t be here in 5 years
 
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@TheLoveBandit

p.s.

i totally hear what you're saying on the ability of presidents - any president - to get stuff done. i get it.

but, again, these aren't lame throwaway promises that all politicians make. we're talking about central pillars of his campaigns. the healthcare one is particularly egregious because he didn't even try and, these days, he deals with that by trying to rewrite history.

"concepts of plans"?

i mean, lmfoa. it's the kind of shit a teenager tells their teacher when they've not done their homework. the president should be better than that.

alasdair
 
For all the government agencies being dismantled by Elon….i don’t see a single plan being put forth of how the thing said agency was supposed to address will now be addressed.

They are just destroying everything with no plan to replace it in order to bring extreme pain and desperation on Americans. This is an enemy gaining control and purposely destroying America. There is no other answer for what is happening.
 
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