Wait, you don't get that for phenethylamines too? I do, and I'd say it's at least as pronounced with phenethylamines as tryptamines. Each different chemical leaves behind part of its spirit.
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See my first query. You're saying you get "clean, smooth and wonderful" after effects from most psychedelics, but you only get "the trip is still sort of spinning out of my mind in waves" from tryptamines not phenethylamines? Thanks for the clarification.
Those are completely different things that I'm referring to, although I can understand conflating them from an outside perspective. The "clean and smooth and wonderful" feeling to me is just a feeling like I still feel physically healed after having had a trip, like I feel younger and more physically disinhibited again, and I have less pain and lethargy and such. It doesn't feel to me like I'm actually still tripping on anything, just like I'm still benefiting from having tripped.
The "spinning out of my mind in waves" that I describe from tryptamines literally does feel like I'm still tripping mentally for the next few days, and it doesn't have anything to do with feeling fresh and healed or anything. It feels inebriating to the point that sometimes I worry about my ability to do things that require me to be sober for the next few days still. It basically just feels like the cognitive effects of the drug outlive the immediate effects of the chemical actually being in my brain, and I still have to make my way down through them at the pace that they work at, whatever they may be. I do tend to find that this is common for me with tryptamines and uncommon for me with phenethylamines. On the other hand, I tend to feel refreshed after trips in the physical way from most psychedelics as I recall.
I guess a lot of reason I prefer phenethylamines to tryptamines is that I feel like the duration of negative effects is similar either way, but since phenethylamines tend to peak later, I'm more likely to be over the icky stuff before I peak instead of only feeling better after.
I'll have to get back to you after I try some amphetamine psychedelics though. So far all I've had is test dose of DOC, 0.25 mg I think, and that was long time ago.
That's interesting. I personally feel like all psychedelics feel pretty much fine by what I would consider the peak, and potentially weird up to that point. It doesn't really affect my preference for them much anymore. I just expect it and still know I'm going to get something out of the trip anyway.
Actually the worst psychedelic for me was oral 5-Meo-DMT. With ayahuasca, I swallowed a capsule containing 5-ish mg, and I felt like I was in a physical crisis that lasted for something like 6 hours. I was shaking intensely and constantly. I cycled rapidly between feelings of intense heat and cold. I felt extremely light-headed and didn't dare try to stand up. Through all this, there were no visuals at all. The only notable mental effect was the malaise from the physical experience. I doubt I will ever experiment with 5-Meo-DMT again and probably won't touch 5-Meo- or 5-HO- anything altogether because I have a feeling my body chemistry is not compatible with those.
For what it's worth, that makes total sense to me, but I feel like there's a chance you're letting that experience cloud the picture of what 5-MeO-DMT is really like more generally, and I say that without even having tried 5-MeO-DMT yet myself.
There's a couple quick reasons I have to give for this.... The first is that I've actually seen scientific research that explicitly suggested that 5-MeO-DMT metabolizes into 5-HO-DMT/bufotenine when taken orally, and that taking 5-MeO-DMT with a MAOI also increases the amount of bufotenine that is formed and that remains in your system. From what I'm aware, bufotenine is a completely miserable substance to take orally, seeming to get entirely clogged up in the body and often producing just tons of uncomfortable physical side effects and usually little to no trip. Even when smoking bufotenine, I personally found it to be unusually body-heavy, compared to literally basically any other psychedelic I've ever tried. From what I can tell, I'm not the only person to think this way.
And second, I've used 5-MeO-MiPT, 5-MeO-EiPT, and 5-MeO-DiPT both orally and by smoking, and even without a MAOI, they all have noticeable body loads for me when taken orally, but not when smoking them. 5-MeO-MiPT's is the mildest for me, only sometimes being kind of bad, but still worse than other kinds of tryptamines; I could imagine that this is why it's often said to be the most popular one. 5-MeO-DiPT's body load to me is pretty bad, the only thing that really makes it worth it is that the trips are also really interesting to me, and even then, I tend to find myself mostly just wishing it would go away by the end of it. 5-MeO-EiPT I only took once and it was literally crippling to the point that it felt unsafe (which I'm not saying it was, that's just how bad it felt) and I have no desire to ever experience that again, even though I wish I could take it orally without that still. By contrast, none of them has had any notable body load for me when smoked, except for, ironically, one time on 5-MeO-MiPT, but it was still really light. I actually find them to be extremely smooth when smoked, more so than most other psychedelics when taken orally.
As I said I haven't actually taken 5-MeO-DMT myself yet, but I have a feeling this might be why it is usually smoked or snorted, on top of the fact that having it come on hard and fast supposedly just also helps you get more out of it in the way it's popularly known for being unique. That's definitely what I would do personally, smoke it, not take it orally except maybe down the line if I've just already smoked it a lot and want to try it for comparison reasons or something. So, this seemed worth saying to me. The way you used it is what I personally would suspect the way to be by far the most likely to induce the kind of physically uncomfortable and low intensity experience that you had with it.
I can tolerate mushrooms as long as I am able to lie down for the first few hours, but this constrains my tripping activities considerably. I've tried a number of other tryptamines, and excepting the 5-Meo-DMT did not have these body issues. My favorite was probably 4-Aco-MIPT because it was a full, colorful trip like mushrooms but without the body issues. It felt to me a lot like how most other people described mushrooms, though I'm sure there are differences.
I haven't used 4-AcO-MiPT, but I have used 4-HO-MiPT plenty. I like it. It's not my favorite or the most impressive of the tryptamines for me, but it's probably generally the 4-substituted tryptamine I'd be most likely to take recreationally. It does have some notable similarities to mushrooms for me, but I find it to be more ornate, digital, and sexy. For years now I've described it as having a "burlesque" vibe. Fun stuff. Sometimes weird though too....
Speaking only in terms of mushrooms vs. oral DMT, which were the two things I did almost exclusively for a few years, I'd have to say that I preferred mushrooms at lower doses and DMT for higher doses. First of all, using oral DMT I struggled with inconsistency between sessions, and so I basically had to always be prepared for a very intense trip. Hence, if I wanted a mild trip, mushrooms were the choice. On the flip-side, I felt the high dose DMT journey to be superior. It felt like I was literally plugged in with the cosmos, completely unlike anything else of this world, and as long as the dose was reasonable it was mercifully short.
I still haven't taken oral DMT unfortunately, but I have used MPT, MiPT, DiPT, and MALT orally. I also agree that high dosages seem like the way to go with them. 100 mg of MPT and 50 mg of MiPT were some of my most memorable trips ever, not only for but in part for the hallucinogenic intensity. I feel I should note though that I have a reputation for getting effects from base tryptamines more easily than other people around here. I can be absolutely blown away by otherworldly hallucinations at a dosage where other people are like, "Yeah, this feels pretty nice I suppose." This seems to somewhat be the case with 5-methoxytryptamines for me too. I don't complain but I wish I had an explanation for why, I'd love it if more other people experienced them on the level I do too. I do know I'm not the only one to trip easily from them at least.
In my experience, what you said about DMT vs mushrooms holds up for base tryptamines vs 4-substituted tryptamines in general, on average at least. I find the former less interesting unless taken to the more DMT-like visionary/breakthrough point, in which case they really excel, whereas the latter I find to be more mental and about visual distortions that are less complex but already more active at lower dosages, and I find them to be more in line with the stereotypical idea of a psychedelic trip popularized by the likes of LSD for instance in general.
I should note that even when the oral DMT fizzled, the ayahuasca alone was quite nice, and I'm quite certain that aya contributes quite a lot to the quality of the oral DMT taken with it. If taken in higher doses, aya alone can induce a dream-like visionary state, which is distinctly different from psychedelics. In fact, I don't know what to compare it to. I also combined aya a few times with a particular mescaline cactus that doesn't have much "extra stuff" like tyramine and was surprised that I experienced little potentiation, but at the low doses I had, it felt deeply healing and spiritual like nothing else. Too bad I have no idea where to get more of that cactus, and I'm guessing I won't get the same response to the standard varities which have a lot of stuff that look sketchy with MAOI.
I really would like to try the harmala plants alone for this reason too. I've heard a lot about their visionary potential but never got around to trying them that way myself.
The only other "base" tryptamine I had was DIPT, and I rather of liked DIPT. Ignoring the audio effects, I experienced wonderful heart opening effects together with a very relaxed feeling. I'd also be interested in studying the audio effects alone. I am curious about DPT, but I'm afraid of it too. There's also the ROA question. I lean toward rectal, but it doesn't seem to have any advocates. Lastly, I haven't had DMT on its own and am curious about smoked and more so rectal. I'd love to be able to reliably get to a nice medium level again and be able to stay there for a while.
I really like DiPT too, and I'd really love it if I could have just the psychedelic trip without the unique auditory effects on top of it. Unfortunately, at any active dosage for the auditory effects for me, the way they make my ears feel is literally painful, causes a nonstop aggravating ringing, and it's so bad that I have spent an entire DiPT drinking alcohol just to distract myself from it. I wouldn't want to take this unique pharmacological tool and potential for learning away from the world of course, I just wish I could enjoy the trip without the literal pain and constant ringing. I did get to enjoy the auditory effects to at least some extent with hearing distorted voices and music and stuff once, but I think that was probably enough for me in that regard knowing how it's gone since then.
I've actually known a lot of people to praise rectal DPT, for what it's worth. I'm afraid I can't recall what they actually said about it though, I don't use drugs rectally and I don't really make an attempt to remember what other people said about it. I personally smoked it, and I had a great and extremely easygoing trip at 30 mg. I'll just throw out there that I think the people who were first trying and writing trip reports about DPT were waaaaay overshooting the dosage, and that a lot of its reputation for being so intense and heavy and dark probably mostly came from that. I do still find it to be one of the psychedelics that's on the "spookier" side even at lower dosages, but not in any intimidating or uncomfortable way; I actually smoked it to celebrate Halloween once and thought that it fit the mood quite well. I've known other people who were afraid of doing DPT as well and I just always have to put my opinion out there that I really don't think of it as much different from other tryptamines at large, I actually find it unusually calm and clean feeling for a tryptamine when the trip is good.
That being said, on the other end of things, I'm actually not much of a fan of smoking DMT, to a degree that seems like I like it less than most people I encounter. (So, maybe I'm just a weird one, really.) I cannot speak to taking it rectally, I've only smoked it and once done IM. (It was meh, I don't think I got a high enough dosage though.) For me smoked DMT usually has a lot more uncomfortable body feelings than most other psychedelics in general, similar to bufotenine although much less severely than that still. The trip also just doesn't really interest me most of the time, although I'd probably find it a lot more enjoyable if not for the body load, because then I could just be happy with it being what it is. As it is I hope for it to be worth the struggle and I usually just find it to go by too fast to really make much of. I haven't actually been able to "breakthrough" in the stereotypical way that people describe with smoking it though, despite many attempts. Maybe if I'm able to do that one day my opinion of it will change.
So yeah, you should probably keep in mind that as much experience with and opinions about tryptamines that I have, they may not generally apply to most people on average, lol.
That sure would be convenient.
