Israel is under attack

[Jabberwocky]

My point is to ask why you're questioning it NOW, now instead of when those thousands more Palestinians were dying

Questioning what? Who has the moral high ground? I'm not questioning it, I plainly stated my opinion; nobody.

I've always had a pseudo-nihilistic perspective on war/violence, ever since I got into the Tao.

I think it's mostly meaningless because the "blame game" could go on into infinity. Humans have been evil piece of shits to each other ever since our genesis. Should we run an audit on who hurt who, or who deserves what, for the entirety of human history?

Sure, the IDF has been the worse of the two for the last few decades... but who is to say the Jews don't deserve a homeland? Muslims control vast more geography and countries than Jews. The WWII allies carved out their little cake as consolation for the holocaust.

Jews have historically always been the underdogs and persecuted dating back to the beginning of the religion 2000 years ago. Maybe they deserve a small little country.

The whole thing is a moral conundrum if you expand it out beyond the last few years.

I've never expressed any support or downplay of IDF atrocities in the past or current. I detest every religion that came out of that region. I have no emotional stake in any of it.

Edit: just stumbled upon this relevant meme

 

[Jabberwocky]

But intentions matter. Sometimes, intent is all the seperates an act of murder from a pure accident. Israel cutting off power and food to get their hostages back is different from slaughtering children because they're Jewish and you want all Jews dead. The intention behind an action opens a completely different perspective.

Indeed, they say intent is 9/10ths of the law.

But how much different are those two things really? Each will cause suffering and death. Intentional malice is an unweighable object in my mind, regardless of scale.

I'm just blabbering psychosemantical bullshit. I'm afraid I've lost hope in this world, and retreat into my own attempted reconciliation with a meaningless universe that was created by a meaningful God.

How do you fight a group that uses its own citizens as human shields anyway? What inducements are really left after that?

You can't. Just like how it took the US 20 years to realize you can't fight a group of indoctrinated holy warriors willing to strap bombs to their chest in the name of Allah.

 

[nepalnt21]

@Malevolent

i'd LOVE to see your qualms with the last couple of posts i've made that you've reacted to. i'm sure your take on these matters is not unidimensional, is it? i find your takes to typically be fairly nuanced.

 

[Jnowhere]

I am not going to preach but this goes back to biblical times and trust me the land God gave them is a lot bigger than what they have now. The Jews were given a lot more land than they have now but broke the covenant and were dispersed, they went back to claim their promised land and in 1948 in a single day ( as predicted in the Bible), The Balfour Declaration) gave them a homeland. And things have been bloody ever since.

The Muslims believe they have a right to the land also. There is a holy war, because they believe there are sacred Muslim lands and they want the Jews out.( and many want them wiped off the Earth)
Neither side will back down.
This is not opinion but history, they both believe it is their land and there will be no compromise, till near the end of time as we know it. This is a holy war, and all you atheists, agnostics and people of other religions cannot understand or appreciate the severity of this dispute
Only the Jews( serious practicing), Muslims(serious practicing) and Christians(serious practicing Christians who have read the Bible) can fully understand what is going on. And yes there are religious scholars with no real beliefs, just info who have an idea, but no true understanding


There cannot be a compromise that Muslims and Jews will accept. The Christians have no land claims
Which during peaceful times is great for Isreals tourist industry.

The Jews are waiting for their messiah. Who will redeem and liberate the Jews.

The Christians know Jesus Christ was the Messiah( I am a Christian, and all you bigots and liberal hypocrites can literally go to hell)
The Christians believe Christ will return, but the Anti- Christ will come first and deceive most during the Tribulation. Including the Jews who will sign a peace treaty with, which he will break.

The Muslims are waiting for The Mahdi, who will make the whole world ( anyone who will not convert, will be put to death) there is a lot more who will die, and whole world will have to be Muslim. There is debate about the 12th Imam or The Mahdi among Muslims. He is prophesied in some of the Hadith but absent from the Quran. I know my knowledge on this is limited.

I will go to deep into this because I know how intolerant the overlords of this website can be.
The Israelis have tried giving land for peace, but to no avail. There are to many with power who want the Jews pushed into the sea.( exterminated, genocide, a complete holocaust of the Jews)
The Israelis will fight back with greater force when attacked.

I am telling this to people who cannot understand how deep this is. The Muslims and the Jews will not back down till the near end of time and be decieved, until the return of Jesus Christ. who will come not to save, but to judge.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Also, curious but not unexpected the US alt-right went from their Jew hating conspiracies to being silent on this matter, other than to criticize the left for supporting Hamas. Convenient.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Jewish Supremacy?

 

[Delsyd]

but we aren't talking about any events like that, we are talking about the awful attacks hamas did, but they were NOT because their victims were jewish.

This is 100% because they are Jewish. Antisemitism is part of their doctrine, it’s taught in schools. Families get a pention if a member of the family dies killing a Jew. If Israel were a Muslim state no one would give a shit how the Palestinians are being treated by other Muslims. Palistinians live just as bad in Jordan and Lebanon as they do in Gaza with out any mention of it.
Muslim antisemitism goes back a long way. Many Jews were killed in the Middle East in the 30s and 40s in pogroms, they were being pushed out of their home and savagely murdered. There was no safe place for Jews in the land that is equally theirs as it is the Muslims. Israel was created as a safe place for Jewish refugees from the Middle East and Europe where they were hated just as much (holocaust, Russian pogroms).
Shortly after the formation of Israel they were attacked by the surrounding countries and they won that war. That is when they took control of Gaza. They probably should have left that problem for the Egyptians to deal with.
Antisemitism is the oldest and most acceptable form of racism and now hides behind the term Antizionism.

 

[Delsyd]

but like... what, ultimately is the point? and are you saying ALL of them hate jewish ppl? cause it probably also depends on what part of the world they're from... but again, why bring it up?

The point is the Jews are defending themselves despite doing it in unethical ways.

 

[CaptnRon]

Here's the thing... When will the fighting end ?

In that particular area of the world? Likely never.

 

[nepalnt21]

This is 100% because they are Jewish

i'm not gonna pretend to be an expert... but this is unequivocally, categorically false.

they've got history. and i mean WAYYYYY before the idf goons came into a mosque (ON RAMADAN, to boot) and beat ppl for exercising what we in the u.s. call one's 'first amendment right'.

you saying that is like saying the church street bombing in apartheid south africa was simply because 'caucasians'.

 

[-=SS=-]

Even with a fresh 1.3 thousand deaths in the last 6 days, far FAR more Palestinians than Israelis have died in the ongoing conflict.

You can't just take that graph and make an immediate judgement solely based on the numbers. I gave some reasons why previously. And this is also part of the wider issue with the conflict, in regards to propaganda, of sensationalising the dead and injured. I mean for fucks sake, Hamas has literally just told people to stay in place for the sole reason they hope lots of people get killed so they can then turn around and go "Ha! You see! Murderers!".

This tit for tat bullshit has to stop. See below.

Here's the thing... When will the fighting end ?

When the Arab world accepts two things:

1. That Israel is not going anywhere and if they try to destroy her they'll get destroyed as well (Samson option). So logically the only move they can make is to drop their hatred and try to find peace.
2. Accept and forgive their own jealousy at Israel's success. If you took away the oil from the Middle East virtually all of the Arab states would still be tribal desert wastes. Israel has no oil but has flourished. This is known in psychology as the 'sandy butthole syndrome'.

Look at Gaza. They dug up their own water pipes in order to make missiles. They would rather pursue hatred than try to make something out of a bad situation. The big problem is this religious undertone that the people generally can fall back on, which allows a doorway for this hatred, instead of perhaps the people learning to help diffuse the pain of those who've been directly affected by Israel's operations.

Israel needs to stick to its borders as well. No more settler bullshit, no more excuses for inciting hatred on the opposite side.

 

[gordonliddy]

You can't just take that graph and make an immediate judgement solely based on the numbers.

But he can.

That one German chick seems genuinely sympathetic to Hamas, but the rest of the pro-Hamas crowd are trolls. They don't want the good guys to win. As hard as we're working not to call Israel the good guys, they're close enough to being the good guys that trolls won't be able to resist the urge to try to tear it down.

Or to try waste your time for caring. There is no swing vote here. In my opinion there really aren't two sides.

 

[someguyontheinternet]

The state of Israel should not be equated with Judaism or Jewish people in general, the official religion of a state does not reflect anything on the religion as a whole

 

[Jabberwocky]

The state of Israel should not be equated with Judaism or Jewish people in general

I agree and disagree. Should not be equated fully or generalized, but cannot be completely separated either. Just like how Christianity cannot be separated from modern US political policy, it's not supposed to be an influence, but it absolutely is. Dealt under the table.

the official religion of a state does not reflect anything on the religion as a whole

I've never understood antisemitism. Of the 3 Abrahamic religions the Jews have been overwhelmingly the least violent, least aggressive and most peaceful throughout all of history.

Outside of what is occurring in Israel, I have never seen a Jewish person display anything but peace, respect and love (in the name of their religious beliefs). Of course some people will always be greedy or violent, but I've never seen a non-Israelite Jew spread hatred or bigotry because of some interpretation of their holy book.

 

[-=SS=-]

That one German chick seems genuinely sympathetic to Hamas, but the rest of the pro-Hamas crowd are trolls. They don't want the good guys to win. As hard as we're working not to call Israel the good guys, they're close enough to being the good guys that trolls won't be able to resist the urge to try to tear it down.

As a conspiracy theorist minded person this saga has been really interesting to watch unfold, and quite disturbing actually from a purely psychological point of view. There's a massive contingent of people defaulting to this sly insinuation of a Jewish global conspiracy, in various flavours and degrees, which has always really been there but this time there has been an immediate assumption that the Israeli state (as a totality with no delineation) are liars. And not only that but that these people are certain about their own evaluation of the situation based upon previous events (covid, 9/11, etc) and their ability to discern the truth, when in actuality we don't know the full truth about any of those events. And all of this overshadows that fact that 1000+ civilians were murdered, brutally. Can't we just take 1 second to appreciate that level of pain and suffering? Everyone talks about the Palestinian's suffering over an extended timeline, but what about the Jewish families whose lives have just been shattered? It's not biased to just step back and go, "Fuck. That is really terrible."

I have my questions as well regarding the intelligence failure. But it's insane how assured people are of their abilities to dissect the truth when we actually know so little at this point. And then these same people are turning around and telling others how emotional they are being, pointing out the bias, but failing to realise their own. For the first time I actually feel embarrassed to be associated with the conspiracy circuit as it were, there is a tremendous amount of people overestimating their abilities in dire need of self reflection. It's no different to the neo-atheists, the materialists, or any other group of people who believe their own intellectual concept structure is all you need to find the truth.

"If the Jew did not exist, the Anti-Semite would invent him" - Sartre.

I heard that quote today and thought it was apt, though I haven't read his essay yet. There is a lot of projection going on, in my opinion, by people who have a particular belief about how power works on this planet and who have taken the easiest route for an explanation. It's easy to hate the Jews and settle on that position as a way to project anger. It's even been popularized in a satiric way by South Park (Eric vs Kyle). But I find myself wondering, where is the same level of vitriol for the RC Church that has a demonstrable history of actually being fucking evil? I've seen several people talking about 'dancing Israeli's' on 9/11 and how Jews have been expelled from various countries, but these people just overlook the RC Jesuit's who also were expelled for specifically political meddling and who tried to actually blow up British parliament!

 

[Jabberwocky]

"Israel is one of the most racist countries in the world."

 

[MedicinalUser247]

Well it's basically the same thing repeating it's self over and over again. There's war there's peace there's war there's peace. This has been going on for thousands of years in the middle east and it won't end anytime soon. I actually predict that there's going to be another cease fire, but like always they'll go back to fighting. It's a repetitive cycle that won't stop anytime soon.

 

[nepalnt21]

if only israel (the STATE that holds the power), would MAKE AN ATTEMPT at peace, but the current government is a bunch of genocidal, jewish supremacist shits.

they are denounced by jewish, muslim, secular, christian (etc) humans alike... they (as others have pointed out) are NOT representative of the jewish people/ attitudes in general, and need to step down to let DECENT ppl try at peace, and the higher ups need to be tried for their war crimes.

 

[Delsyd]

You do know there are Jews who do not support the state of Israel?

I bet after last weeks terrorist attack on Israeli civilians a lot of those same jews support Israel defending itself and its people.

 

[AlsoTapered]

Well, Friday 13th passed and in Europe their was a single attack in France by a 'lone wolf' that resulted in one dead and two inured.

138 of the 193 nations on earth have recognised Palestine as a nation-state and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Sunday declared that his country was 'at war'.

So it remains to be seen if Israel is tacitly defining Palestine as a nation-state because if so, Israel is a signatory to the Geneva Convention.

But one way or another, even if Israel utterly destroys Gaza (which looks increasingly likely), will it stop Hamas? It seems unlikely. What it will do is galvanize support of Hamas among Palestinians and ensure that more nations will openly support Palestine.

I don't know if people are aware that quite a lot of Palestinians did not support Hamas, in fact in 2022, local elections showed Fatah to be much more popular. So is Hamas essentially forcing Palestinians into supporting them by virtue of their being the only option?

I always approach events asking 'who gains?' and it's clearly not the Palestinian peoples nor the Israeli peoples. On both sides, it's 2 extremist governments who seek to gain.