⫸Trans and LGBTQIA+ Discussion⫷

[Las Veghost grower]

I’m sorry there is no way your just gonna pick up where you left off 7 years later, and quite frankly it’s pretty asinine to suggest that’s how it will work…imo it’s one of those things where you don’t even need a study or proof or anything, it’s just common sense, look deep within and ask yourself if a 10yr old took blockers for 7 years then stopped would just magically become normal in a year? 2 years ? 5? You know the answer

 

[JGrimez]

don't try and squirm out of the FACT that you're a patent liar.

You're projecting.
I don't need to lie, it's bad for your brain.
And telling the truth these days is much more fun.

and don't pull a @Foreigner and try pull some slimy shit to try and bait me into a debate on the matter. i hate slimy bait.

lol "How dare you ask me questions! What do you expect me to do, have a discussion and defend my crazy positions?? Just castrate yourself and be quiet."

 

[Eligiu]

They've done transition stuff (hormones, surgery) on kids at least as young as 14 in Sweden. 2 minute search.

"10-19 years old" is listed as an age span of children having been transitioned - in a public service media outlet which is of course a trustworthy source in this context. Thankfully the law was changed to not allow this insanity a few years back. But it has indeed happened. Your rose tinted view is a rose tinted view.

Access to sex reassignment surgery

fra.europa.eu

This is from 2017. Minimum ages listed all 16-18, which all but two list the minimum age at 18. Sweden is 18 for surgery.

Curious as to your source for this because this seems to very clearly contradict what you have said.

 

[Eligiu]

Yeah they do it on kids in that age group here (U.S.) too but it's denied that it happens. Anybody can go see the amount of women on social media that regret having their breasts removed at age 16 or whatever age below 18

The sheer irony of this statement is that the vast majority of transgender people I personally know in the US talk about how difficult accessing treatment is even as adults.

Anyway, this really isn't what the topic is about and it's become very off topic @arrall would you not agree? I simply commented my experience regarding my sexuality as a trans person and somehow yet again this has devolved into a debate about the validity of peoples choice to medically transition.

Makes you wonder why more trans forum members choose not to engage with these topics.

My stance on this has been mentioned. Not transphobic unless the reason you are not attracted to someone is them being trans and even if that's the case you still don't have to fuck them or be attracted to them.

 

[nepalnt21]

defend my crazy positions

what's my crazy position? go ahead and strawman me again. it'll be fun.

btw, the patent lie was when you strawmanned my position, no projection there just the facts, unlike this 'person':

I don’t know how many times I have to say this, but that dude is a troll. 100%. I know these things.

takes one to falsely accuse one...

How dare you ask me questions

how dare you lie, that's the point... you can ask questions in good faith, that's not what you did.

i've deliberately stayed out of the discussion since i don't know enough about it.

i know enough to see when someone paints it as "kids being chemically castrated" that they are arguing in bad faith, though...

 

[Mjäll]

Access to sex reassignment surgery

fra.europa.eu

This is from 2017. Minimum ages listed all 16-18, which all but two list the minimum age at 18. Sweden is 18 for surgery.

Curious as to your source for this because this seems to very clearly contradict what you have said.

One of many possible sources:

Sweden’s Karolinska Ends All Use of Puberty Blockers and Cross-Sex Hormones for Minors Outside of Clinical Studies

Update May 08, 2021: Following a new policy statement from the Karolinska Hospital that went into effect May 2021, this article has been updated to reflect the changes. Update February, 2022: Sweden's National Board of Health and Welfare has followed the Karolinska's lead and issued a national...

segm.org

"The Karolinska Hospital in Sweden recently issued a new policy statement regarding treatment of gender-dysphoric minors. This policy, affecting Karolinska's pediatric gender services at Astrid Lindgren Children's Hospital (ALB), has ended the practice of prescribing puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones to gender-dysphoric patients under the age of 18.

This is a watershed moment, with one of world's most renowned hospitals calling the "Dutch Protocol" experimental and discontinuing its routine use outside of research settings. According to the ”Dutch Protocol,” which has gained popularity in recent years, gender-dysphoric minors are treated with puberty blockers at age 12 (and in some interpretations, upon reaching Tanner stage 2 of puberty, which in girls can occur at age 8), and cross-sex hormones at the age of 16. This approach, also known as medical "affirmation," has been endorsed by the WPATH ”Standards of Care 7” guideline."

Another source citing breast removal on 14 year old:

Sveriges största könsmottagning har opererat bort bröst på minst en 14-åring

Uppdrag granskning kan avslöja att Karolinska universitetssjukhuset, som har Sveriges största könsmottagning, har opererat bort brösten på minst en fjortonårig flicka. Sjukhuset vägrar berätta hur många det handlar om. Men ingen annanstans i landet opereras så unga personer i könskorrigerande syfte.

www.svt.se

(Might have to translate)

You're not humble

 

[JGrimez]

what's my crazy position? go ahead and strawman me again. it'll be fun.

you support "gender-affirming care" which involves using chemical castration drugs and/or irreversible surgeries (on children under 18).

btw, the patent lie was when you strawmanned my position, no projection there just the facts, unlike this 'person':

Just defend your position instead of going on emotional tirades and lashing out at the individual.

how dare you lie, that's the point... you can ask questions in good faith, that's not what you did.

trollololol ok, what did I lie about

i've deliberately stayed out of the discussion since i don't know enough about it.

You sure do post a lot for someone staying out of a discussion.

i know enough to see when someone paints it as "kids being chemically castrated" that they are arguing in bad faith, though...

Lupron is a gonadotropin-releasing hormone agonist used to treat prostate cancer, breast cancer, endometriosis, and uterine fibroids. It has also been used in the past to chemically castrate pedophiles. It is now being used off-label – having never been approved by the FDA or Health Canada – to stop puberty in kids who want to change their sex.

 

[JGrimez]

If I am understanding correctly, are you comparing conversion therapy to gender affirming care? Do we understand the differences here? Do you know what is involved in gender affirming care therapies?

Conversion therapy, in the context of transgender individuals, attempts to FORCEFULLY alter a person's gender identity to match the sex they were assigned at birth. This practice is not only scientifically discredited but also deeply damaging.
On the other hand, gender-affirming therapy is a therapeutic approach that seeks to validate individuals' self-identified gender identities. Unlike conversion therapy, it doesn't aim to change a person. A reasonable doctor would usually start one on puberty blockers and start actual HRT later on in their life until they are %100 the person identifies as what they are seeking treatment for, if they end up changing their mind, they are taken off and they just continue puberty as normal, no irreversible or dangerous effects there.

I don't think you know enough about puberty blockers and their side effects. It's not just some basic process that can be easily reversed to a point before medical intervention. There are serious long-lasting effects and I would argue that this practice overall is significantly lowering life expectancies for the participants.

With regards to the spirit release/hypnosis therapy, it's not supposed to be forced upon anyone. It should be objectively studied and offered as an alternative therapy that people could research and try of their own free will, potentially before resorting to medications or "converting to a gender they weren't born in". It's non-invasive and not physically harmful. But at least one state in Australia has outlawed the practice. Why would they do that?

 

[Mjäll]

The sheer irony of this statement is that the vast majority of transgender people I personally know in the US talk about how difficult accessing treatment is even as adults.

Anyway, this really isn't what the topic is about and it's become very off topic @arrall would you not agree? I simply commented my experience regarding my sexuality as a trans person and somehow yet again this has devolved into a debate about the validity of peoples choice to medically transition.

Makes you wonder why more trans forum members choose not to engage with these topics.

My stance on this has been mentioned. Not transphobic unless the reason you are not attracted to someone is them being trans and even if that's the case you still don't have to fuck them or be attracted to them.

Going martyr over that is ridiculous. You made a statement and you answer for it.

 

[axe battler]

I've absolutely seen programmes like the Louis Theroux doc where supportive parents are starting hormone therapy before the ages of 16. There is one kid on there that is blatantly unsure about what they want, yet go to the appointments anyway as they've started and cost their parents thousands of dollars, so appear to feel obligated.
There's a doctor who talks about how it's better to start therapy before puberty too.
Whilst this is true, that decision shouldn't be made by a child IMHO.

 

[alasdairm]

trollololol ok, what did I lie about

you lied about leaving bluelight forever. so every single post you post confirms you are a liar.

alasdair

 

[Droppersneck]

I think the fact that grimez says many truths that can’t be refuted, this puts him on the shit list of most of the pro establishment users on here. Jmo though

 

[nepalnt21]

you support "gender-affirming care" [for kids]

i literally have not once said that i have, as i've said... i don't know enough about it.

so once again:

QUIT FUCKING LYING!!!!!

jesus fucking christ, it's impossible for you to make a single honest comment, isn't it? leave me the fuck alone if you're going to continue to make up lies about me.

 

[Droppersneck]

I remember seeing you say you support it tbh. Not gonna complain about you having a bit of self awareness and modifying your position. I wish more people would look at the facts and do this. People have pride in their ignorance or allegiance to their social group.

 

[Eligiu]

Going martyr over that is ridiculous. You made a statement and you answer for it.

I did make a statement. And then I googled what you told me to and I got different results. Very different results.

I said as much, and then I said that this has gone completely off topic. The topic is sexual preference and whether or not that is transphobic in ways it relates to trans people, not 'generic discussion about trans people medically transitioning' which coincidentally, only became a topic after I commented replying to the initial topic of the thread.

It is not rocket science why trans forum members avoid these discussions. I'm happy to continue discussing the actual topic, but I'm not engaging further in what it's moving into. I specifically avoid those topics on here for a reason.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Any day an intersex person is born, yes. Or very soon after. And I'm aware of the issue of FGM and MGM. Both reprehensible.


I'm unsure as to why you are referring to me or bringing up life being unfair or hormones I didn't consent to. I'm not intersex. I simply brought up how awful it would be for them eventually finding out that their parents could have left their body alone and let them choose on their own, in the situation they had ambitious genitalia etc instead of surgically 'correcting' them via a series of invasive surgeries when they were younger, as well as forcing them to take hormones they didn't consent to. Especially when their parents had a 50/50 choice they never needed to make and made the wrong one, now that person is intersex and also has to transition. And sadly, people in my own community don't accept them as being part of ours due to some small differences. I really feel bad for the people who experience this, I cannot imagine. My experiences have been an unlucky accident of birth. Theirs could have been avoided.

People being forced to have their bodies have unnecessary cosmetic genital surgery on them as babies (including any form of circumcision, yes) is not the same as you by happenchance being born into a family of alcoholics. Nobody forced you to start drinking. I could blame my dad for my drug use being a result of his abuse, but frankly it's moreso a result of my lack of adaptive coping mechanisms. Intersex people didn't get a choice, and they had these decisions made for them when they were neither medically necessary, nor even advisable. It's being outlawed all over the world.

Which gender affirming surgeries are you talking about happening for those minors. I said it occasionally happens for 16 year olds. With a long term history of dysphoria. If I'd been diagnosed as a child like i should have been I would have been thrilled to have surgery at 16. I didn't change my mind since I did at 19 and I wouldn't have if I transitioned earlier.

As an aside, suicide is relevant to the discussion. When you post talking about doing things like limiting any form of gender affirming care, no matter how reversible it is from access by children who are trans, the end result is often suicide. The statistics reflect this. You cannot strip that away from the argument, for better or for worse. Gender affirming care is medically necessary for those of us who need it. I would have been dead in the ground a decade ago if I couldn't have done what I did. I remember the night I realised I was trans and I would have to tell my whole family and risk them disowning me, and then also realising I couldn't continue pretending to be a girl. I tried to hang myself that night in my parents garage. Gender affirming surgery is considered medically necessary for those who require it. It's not a matter of we can do without it.

I was a bit tipsy and in a bad mood last night, came off coarse and didn't elaborate myself. Didn't mean to be offensive. I wasn't trying to dismiss tragic suicides as a non issue.

My point about suicide being irrelevant is that there are ways to address that in children under 18 other than to give gender changing hormones or surgery. Suicide is often used as a reason to do that.

After 18, people can do whatever they want with their body or be whoever they feel they should be. It's literally written into our constitution; "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".

When people get older and look back, everyone understands how illogical their thinking was as a teenager. I'm not saying having body dysmorphia is invalid or untrue. I'm just saying kids shouldn't be making such radical decisions based on what they feel or think at that age.

 

[Eligiu]

I was a bit tipsy and in a bad mood last night, came off coarse and didn't elaborate myself. Didn't mean to be offensive. I wasn't trying to dismiss tragic suicides as a non issue.

My point about suicide being irrelevant is that there are ways to address that in children under 18 other than to give gender changing hormones or surgery. Suicide is often used as a reason to do that.

After 18, people can do whatever they want with their body or be whoever they feel they should be. It's literally written into our constitution; "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".

When people get older and look back, everyone understands how illogical their thinking was as a teenager. I'm not saying having body dysmorphia is invalid or untrue. I'm just saying kids shouldn't be making such radical decisions based on what they feel or think at that age.

Body dysmorphia is something that people with anorexia or who obsessively body build have.

Gender dysphoria is the term you are looking for.

And look, i tend to agree that in teenagers who display literally zero prior indicators of dysphoria that caution is needed.

But I think about my situation and tbh, it was pretty cut and dried with me. Blockers would have saved me a lot of money.

At the end of the day I can't change the past. I transitioned in my late teens and that's just what it was for me.

But I always ask people to consider when *they* knew what gender they were. And how they came to know it.

 

[Mjäll]

I did make a statement. And then I googled what you told me to and I got different results. Very different results.

I said as much, and then I said that this has gone completely off topic. The topic is sexual preference and whether or not that is transphobic in ways it relates to trans people, not 'generic discussion about trans people medically transitioning' which coincidentally, only became a topic after I commented replying to the initial topic of the thread.

It is not rocket science why trans forum members avoid these discussions. I'm happy to continue discussing the actual topic, but I'm not engaging further in what it's moving into. I specifically avoid those topics on here for a reason.

I hope that makes sense.

What a coincidence you quoted that post and not the one with sources!

No, you don't make sense. Beyond being obviously and parodically biased of course.

 

[Eligiu]

What a coincidence you quoted that post and not the one with sources!

No, you don't make sense.

I actually didn't see one with sources. I was at work all afternoon, then when I got home I played Zelda for a while. I replied to what I thought was your only response.

It doesn't cost anything to not assume the worst in people, but here we are with you trying to engage me in a rather pointless debate we have already had before, for seemingly no real reason.

Happy to discuss the topic at hand re sexual preference and transphobia whenever you would like to do so, my friend.

 

[Mjäll]

I actually didn't see one with sources. I was at work all afternoon, then when I got home I played Zelda for a while. I replied to what I thought was your only response.

It doesn't cost anything to not assume the worst in people, but here we are with you trying to engage me in a rather pointless debate we have already had before, for seemingly no real reason.

Happy to discuss the topic at hand re sexual preference and transphobia whenever you would like to do so, my friend.

Not my problem if you accidentally ignored a post making it seem like you tactically ignored a post. (...How about responding now that you've seen it?)

Not interested in your Zelda game.

I don't assume the worst in people. You just made that up. Do you see the irony?