Police Brutality Thread

[birdup.snaildown]

If kneeling on somebody's neck when they have heart problems kills them, the police shouldn't be kneeling on anybody's neck... because it's impossible to eyeball someone and tell if they have heart disease.

There is (however) reasonable doubt that Chauvin killed him. He probably killed him - it would, otherwise, be an incredible coincidence if someone happened to be kneeling on his neck at the moment he died - but we don't know 100%.

As a juror, I would probably opt for not guilty because he said "I can't breathe" four times before being restrained.

It's a tricky one.

 

[aemetha]

If kneeling on somebody's neck when they have heart problems kills them, the police shouldn't be kneeling on anybody's neck... because it's impossible to eyeball someone and tell if they have heart disease.

I'm a little confused by this. Why does anyone think it's okay for police to kneel on anyone's neck, ever? It's not like they aren't equipped with tools for restraining subjects, or trained in restraint techniques that don't involve kneeling on people's necks. Applying force to one of the most vulnerable parts of the body is asking for trouble in any circumstances.

As a juror, I would probably opt for not guilty because he said "I can't breathe" four times before being restrained.

See, for me as a juror, I'd ask myself, would a healthy person have died if Chauvin did that to them, and the answer is probably yes. He kept kneeling on him long after he was dead. So I'd convict, based on that. It doesn't matter how much the defense muddies it. Kneeling on a persons neck for that length of time is likely to kill them, and it did.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Why does anyone think it's okay for police to kneel on anyone's neck, ever?

I often word things in such a way that people think I think things that I don't. In real life, my tone of voice and my body language doesn't help either. I get social anxiety because people constantly misunderstand what I'm saying and it causes awkwardness. It doesn't help that I have few filters and I'm extremely outspoken on even the most controversial topic.

I don't think it (kneeling your weight on someone's neck) is okay in the vast majority of circumstances. There is a point, however, that I draw the line. If somebody is wearing a necklace made of children's heads and they are fucking a baby panda to death, police should gouge their eyes out.

the answer is probably yes

Probably is not how the legal system works. Chauvin deserves a fair trial. A fair trial means twelve people deciding that he is guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

Kneeling on a persons neck for that length of time is likely to kill them

Whether or not a man of Chauvin's size kneeling on the neck of a man the size of Floyd is likely to result in death is not clear to me. Would you care to elaborate on your statement and explain why you think it is likely to kill them? I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not making any factual statements (about this case) other than when I'm stating facts. You might be right and you might be wrong. I haven't placed any bets, because I don't know what happened.

If the prosecution's argument relies on the fact that he would have died anyway (had it not been for the drugs or his medical conditions) they need to establish that as fact... but the more I think about it, neither of those things really matter. People with medical conditions - and people on drugs - don't deserve to die.

The question should be whether or not the restraint was reasonable.

I'm honestly not sure what I would do as a member of that jury. I would definitely devote more time to the subject. I think I would say Chauvin is guilty of manslaughter, but certainly not murder... however, the penalty (15 years) is way too high.

There was a guy in Australia recently (some details may be wrong, sue me) that was high as fuck on drugs and he ran over four cops on the side of a freeway then he filmed them as they died. I might be mixing him up with someone else, but I think he only got something like 18 years. Chauvin doing 15 years (relative to this incident) seems insane to me. People who fuck children get a couple of years.

What happened to George Floyd is a tragedy, but it's also a tragedy what is happening to Officer Chauvin. The guy isn't an idiot. He didn't intentionally strangle a man to death with his knee in broad daylight. It's, frankly, disgusting how ruthless the social justice witch hunt is. Society is too ready to crucify people. We are bloodthirsty.

The other incident with the female cop accidentally shooting someone instead of tasing them, I for one 100% believe her when she says this was an accident. It's tragic but this was bound to happen eventually. I recognize this is one of those moments that I sound like I don't care. I do care. I always care. Chaos ensures things go wrong sometimes. We can't prevent all disasters. Accidents happen. I feel sorry for the victims and their families, but I also feel sorry for the cops who accidentally killed someone. It's a tough thing to process.

 

[aemetha]

Probably is not how the legal system works. Chauvin deserves a fair trial. A fair trial means twelve people deciding that he is guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

I'm sorry, but probably is exactly how the legal system works. Reasonable doubt essentially means that there are other plausible explanations for the persons death. The very terms reasonable, plausible and doubt are couched in ambiguity by intention because it is rarely possible to arrive at certainty. If the legal system required certainty for conviction, it would state that. It doesn't, because juror's are expected to decide if a person probably committed a crime and that there aren't other explanations that are likely which would throw doubt on such a determination.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

there aren't other explanations that are likely which would throw doubt on such a determination.

I think there are other explanations. Everything can't be equally likely. I suppose it is up to each individual to determine how likely something needs to be (relative to something else) in order to justify sending someone to jail for a couple of decades.

You're splitting hairs about probably. I know how the justice system works. If Floyd didn't say "I can't breathe" and he wasn't on multiple drugs and he didn't have numerous pre-existing health problems, I wouldn't be discussing it at length.

BLM activists act as if cops are hunting people down. In reality, the most controversial cases are situations like this with a huge guy with a disgusting criminal history on a cocktail of drugs saying he can't breathe before anyone touches his neck and a man being charged with murder for strangling him to death in broad daylight with his knee... then, on top of that, you have a million people on the internet calling him a piece of shit and saying he did it intentionally.

It's a fucked up situation, don't get me wrong, but I feel sorry for all parties involved including Chauvin.

 

[aemetha]

You're splitting hairs about probably.

We can agree to disagree, but I'm not splitting hairs. The defense has not offered any alternative explanations for his death which I have found plausible.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@aemetha

Let me ask you this, did Floyd deserved more (or less) time than Chauvin for pistol whipping a pregnant woman and threatening to shoot her unborn child?

 

[aemetha]

@birdup.snaildown the question is, to me, irrelevant. I am a firm believer that justice is blind and is between the alleged perpetrator and the state. I believe in victims rights, but I also believe that victim support is separate from criminal justice. Victim impact has a role in assessing the severity of a crime, but no role in the determination of guilt or any other part of a criminal trial. I think when we start asking questions like the one you just asked, we move from having a justice system to a revenge system.

I could care less about George Flloyd honestly. This trial is about the actions of Derick Chauvin.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

I think when we start asking questions like the one you just asked, we move from having a justice system to a revenge system.

Which question, specifically?

 

[birdup.snaildown]

1. Floyd had a lethal dosage of Fentanyl in his system. Fentanyl restricts your ability to breath.
2. He was also on Meth.

He didn't have anywhere near a lethal level of fentanyl in his system.

He had a nanogram/ml level of fent that had been recorded in other poly-substance fatalities... but the other drugs were low. 19 ng/ml of meth is LOW. This combination wouldn't cause a fatal overdose in healthy people. But, as you've said, he wasn't healthy. It's impossible to say.

He had a heart condition.

1. He had Covid.
2. He had Asthma.
3. He was morbidly obese.
4. He was HIV+ or had AIDS and was not on medications.
5. Floyd was a drug addict, he was arrested 3 times for cocaine possession.
6. He was committing a felony at the time of his death.
7. He was on Meth and Fentanyl at the time if his death. He might as well have drank bleach and drain cleaner.
8. Because of the drugs he was on he was acting crazy. The officers repeatedly told him to keep his hands where they could see them, and to keep his hands on the steering wheel. Floyd repeatedly moved quickly, and moved his hands from the steering wheel.
9. Floyd 6'6", the average American male is 5'9" Floyd weighed 260lbs Chauvin was barely 140lbs.
10. Floyd jumps back through the car, pushes the officer to the ground, and lands on top of the officer.
11. Chavez used excessive force, however he was fighting a violent criminal on METH and fentanyl.

4.

I didn't realize he was HIV+

5.
6.

So what?

7.

Bullshit.

8.

He was handcuffed when he died.

9.

You've gotten his weight wrong numerous times.

10.

Not what I saw in the videos.

11.

Chauvin, not Chauvez.

He wasn't fighting anyone. The guy was on the ground for 10 minutes with his hands cuffed behind his back.

 

[aemetha]

Which question, specifically?

This one...

did Floyd deserved more (or less) time than Chauvin for pistol whipping a pregnant woman and threatening to shoot her unborn child?

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@aemetha

Okay. What is the reason you don't want to answer that question?

I see what you mean about revenge, but that's not where I'm coming from. I'm not invested in either Chauvin or Floyd. I'm not affected be either situation sufficiently to want revenge.

I asked you because numerous people in this thread have said that Chauvin is a monster.

Is Floyd a monster?

I'm not leading you or gaslighting you.

I don't think Floyd deserved to die.

I don't think either of them are monsters.

I'm just asking you a question.

What is worse: what Chauvin did or what Floyd did?

It is always revealing when people chose not to answer a question.

Ask me a question and I'll answer it, because I have nothing to hide.

 

[aemetha]

If you're looking for a comparison for the sake of consistency, I would suggest what Chauvin did is objectively more serious, for the following reasons:

• An action is objectively more serious than the threat of action.
• A killing is objectively more serious than an assault.
• A killing is final, irreversible and unalterable.

I would never use a previous case involving a victim as a perpetrator as a yardstick for determining consistency though. Better to use unrelated cases.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

I disagree with your definitions.

Chauvin (a police officer) happened to kill someone that was resisting arrest, high on drugs and a career criminal.

If you compare that to Floyd's situation:

The man pretended to be from the Water Department. He wore a uniform and everything... and he didn't hit a random house either. He knew he could rob a pregnant woman, right?

When she opened the door a SUV full of his thugs pulled up and they ripped her house apart.

I honestly don't know how the fuck you can even compare these situations?

One of them is like Clockwork Orange FFS.

At the end of the day, I acknowledge that one shouldn't influence the other.

I'm just saying.

 

[cduggles]

@PriestTheyCalledHim
It’s obvious from your posts that you are synthesizing hearsay, conspiracy theories, and rumors to suit your racist and slanted narrative. You actually used the Daily Mail as a source and dare to question where other people get their news? It’s laughable.
And I pretty much automatically ignore people who use nicknames like “Fentanyl Floyd”, but as I am a mod and this is a harm reduction site for substance users, I am compelled to read and comment.
In your posts, you show both ignorance and insensitivity about drug use and towards drug users, which is ironic to say the least. While a lack of knowledge isn’t against any rules, such ignorance should be pointed out, as it has, and exposed for what it is, which is anathema to the core mission of BL.
And just because you use the vague “they” when referring to black people, somewhat oblique terms like “ghetto lottery”, and attribute the decline of a city to a change from a white European to a black African population all without directly stating that you think black people are inferior, it’s clear that you do. And that, my dear, is racism plain and simple.
And it’s just incomprehensible that you would compare consensual sex play to overzealous, violent restraint that resulted in a death.
It’s not that difficult to see where you are coming from, and I think it’s a pretty ugly place.

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

If you're looking for a comparison for the sake of consistency, I would suggest what Chauvin did is objectively more serious, for the following reasons:

• An action is objectively more serious than the threat of action.
• A killing is objectively more serious than an assault.
• A killing is final, irreversible and unalterable.

I would never use a previous case involving a victim as a perpetrator as a yardstick for determining consistency though. Better to use unrelated cases.

Any officer who is pulling over someone with an outstanding Armed Robbery charge, or who is known to be a violent criminal like both George Floyd and Duante were, should be extremely cautious, I don't care what their race/ethnicity is.

George Floyd was known to police and people in Minneapolis as a violent thug and criminal who would think nothing of robbing you so he and his girlfriend he was probably pimping out for heroin, Fentanyl, coke, and Meth or she was talked into turning tricks for drugs and he told her to do sex for drugs or pay, could get their next drug fix which is what killed George Floyd.

Duante was stopped for expired plates but he had an outstanding warrant for Armed Robbery. You can read the details of how he choked a woman and held her at gunpoint trying to rob her of her rent money. Then of course, he resisted arrest. All this racial bias BS falls apart when you take into consideration that people being stopped such as George Floyd, Michael Brown, Freddie Grey, Duante, Trayvon, Breonna Taylor, and even Ahmaud were actually violent criminals, had illegal weapons, and were into robbery/breaking and entering, or in Breonna's case she was involved in or helped cover up a murder, sold guns and hard drugs, etc.

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

He didn't have anywhere near a lethal level of fentanyl in his system.

He had a nanogram/ml level of fent that had been recorded in other poly-substance fatalities... but the other drugs were low. 19 ng/ml of meth is LOW. This combination wouldn't cause a fatal overdose in healthy people. But, as you've said, he wasn't healthy. It's impossible to say.




I didn't realize he was HIV+



So what?



Bullshit.



He was handcuffed when he died.



You've gotten his weight wrong numerous times.



Not what I saw in the videos.



Chauvin, not Chauvez.

He wasn't fighting anyone. The guy was on the ground for 10 minutes with his hands cuffed behind his back.

It is possible to overdose and die from even 2 ng/ml of Fentanyl. It hapoens to opiate addicts all the time.

I have also read of it happening to people who get cocaine cut with fentanyl, or pills that look like the actual prescription type taken out of blister paks or secure packaging, but are really cut with fentanyl.

Did you watch this video? All of it?

 

[mal3volent]

Reminder to everyone: overtly racist rhetoric will not be tolerated. You are free to be racist , but you will not use Bluelight to promote your views and bait other posters.

Also we need to get back on topic. The trial.

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

There is a training manual for police, which actually specifically teaches the Hold Chauvin was using with the knee on shoulder.

It also goes into cases of excited delirum which is what happened to George Floyd.

George could move his head and body so much he had rashes from the asphalt. Nobody crushed his neck, and if you are able to yell clearly 'I can't breathe!' many times the way George was before he even ever got out of the car you are still in fact able to breathe. George Floyd died from a drug overdose, and having numerous other health problems.

 

[aemetha]

There is a training manual for police, which actually specifically teaches the Hold Chauvin was using with the knee on shoulder.

This is a training manual endorsed by his chief and training officers? Odd, since they testified under pain of perjury that it was not an approved restraint.

Nobody crushed his neck, and if you are able to yell clearly 'I can't breathe!' many times the way George was before he even ever got out of the car you are still in fact able to breathe.

Well, actual experts seem to disagree with you. https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/full/10.7326/M20-4186?journalCode=aim

George Floyd died from a drug overdose, and having numerous other health problems.

Well, I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt, but your physicians credentials seem to be questionable in light of your ineptitude in explaining the previous issue with the breathing. I'm going to go with the finding of the pathologist who said it was because the policeman knelt on his neck until he died, which has only been refuted by a pathologist who is currently facing a suit over having allegedly lied to protect police in an eerily similar case.