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US Politics Mass Shootings and Gun Debate 2021

There's a black market for nuclear bombs?
In theory it might be profitable but you'd have every intelligence agency in the world right in your ass.. the opposite of pleasant
 
I don't think there is nearly as clear of a moral high ground when it pertains to drugs.
Guns however is a different story. People don't need gatling guns and bunker busters.
Handguns however is where things get weird for me and i'll have arguments with myself
about the issue sometimes...
 
There's been another large shooting. Multiple dead including a cop. Shooter holed up for a while and eventually surrendered. Details still unclear.



BOULDER, Colo. —
Multiple people were killed at a Colorado supermarket on Monday, including a police officer, and a suspect was in custody, authorities said.

Boulder police Cmdr. Kerry Yamaguchi said at a news conference that the suspect was being treated but didn't give more details on the shooting or how many people were killed. Officers escorted a shirtless man with blood running down his leg out of the store in handcuffs but authorities would not say if that was the suspect.


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Boulder County District Attorney Michael Dougherty said authorities know how many people were killed and suggested they are not releasing the number because they need to notify families of the victims.

Yamaguchi said police were still investigating and didn't have details on motive.

A man who had just left the store in Boulder, Dean Schiller, told The Associated Press that he heard gunshots and saw three people lying face down, two in the parking lot and one near the doorway. He said he "couldn't tell if they were breathing."

Police outside a King Soopers grocery store where a shooting took place Monday, March 22, 2021, in Boulder, Colo.

David Zalubowski / AP Photo
Police outside a King Soopers grocery store where a shooting took place Monday, March 22, 2021, in Boulder, Colo.

Video posted on YouTube showed one person on the floor inside the King Soopers store and two more outside on the ground, but the extent of their injuries wasn't clear. What sounds like two gunshots are also heard at the beginning of the video.

One person was taken from the shooting scene to Foothills Hospital in Boulder, said Rich Sheehan, spokesman for Boulder Community Health, which operates the hospital. Sheehan said he could not provide additional details but did say that "we have been notified we will not be receiving any additional patients."

Video: Witness speaks about active shooter at Boulder supermarket



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Law enforcement vehicles and officers massed outside the store, including SWAT teams, and at least three helicopters landed on the roof in the city that's home to the University of Colorado and is about 25 miles northwest of Denver.

Some windows at the front of the store were broken. At one point, authorities over a loudspeaker said the building was surrounded and that "you need to surrender." They said to come out with hands up and unarmed.

Windows appear damaged at a King Soopers grocery store where a shooting took place Monday, March 22, 2021, in Boulder, Colo.

David Zalubowski / AP Photo
Windows appear damaged at a King Soopers grocery store where a shooting took place Monday, March 22, 2021, in Boulder, Colo.

Sarah Moonshadow told the Denver Post that two shots rang out just after she and her son, Nicolas Edwards, finished buying strawberries. She said she told her son to get down and then "we just ran."

Once they got outside, she said they saw a body in the parking lot. Edwards said police were speeding into the lot and pulled up next to the body.

"I knew we couldn't do anything for the guy," he said. "We had to go."



Play Video
James Bentz told the Post that he was in the meat section when he heard what he thought was a misfire, then a series of pops.

"I was then at the front of a stampede," he said.

Police work on the scene outside a King Soopers grocery store where a shooting took place Monday, March 22, 2021, in Boulder, Colo.

David Zalubowski / AP Photo
Police work on the scene outside a King Soopers grocery store where a shooting took place Monday, March 22, 2021, in Boulder, Colo.

Bentz said he jumped off a loading dock out back to escape and that younger people were helping older people off of it.

Colorado Gov. Jared Polis tweeted a statement that his "heart is breaking as we watch this unspeakable event unfold in our Boulder community." He called it "very much an active situation" and said the state was "making every public safety resource available to assist the Boulder County Sheriff's Department as they work to secure the store."

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Boulder police had told people to shelter in place amid a report of an "armed, dangerous individual" about 3 miles away from the grocery store but later lifted it and police vehicles were seen leaving the residential area near downtown and the University of Colorado. They had said they were investigating if that report was related to the shooting at the supermarket but said at the evening news conference that it wasn't related.

The FBI said it's helping in the investigation at the request of Boulder police.

White House press secretary Jen Psaki tweeted that President Joe Biden had been briefed on the shooting.

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In a statement, the King Soopers chain offered "thoughts, prayers and support to our associates, customers, and the first responders who so bravely responded to this tragic situation. We will continue to cooperate with local law enforcement and our store will remain closed during the police investigation."

Kevin Daly, owner of Under the Sun Eatery and Pizzeria Restaurant a block or so from the supermarket, said he was in his shop when he saw police cars arriving and shoppers running from the grocery store. He said he took in several people to keep them warm, and others boarded a bus provided by Boulder police and were taken away
 
Get ready for your gun rights to be taken away from you after the recent shootings, only criminals will have guns.

Remember only law abiding citizens apply for permits, criminals just buy them off the street.

Get ready for war, Americans will never give up their gun rights.
 
Get ready for your gun rights to be taken away from you after the recent shootings, only criminals will have guns.

Remember only law abiding citizens apply for permits, criminals just buy them off the street.

Get ready for war, Americans will never give up their gun rights.

Roflmao. You have any idea how many times I've heard this now?

You're not losing your fucking guns Jesus christ.

The great joke of America gun control is even the most aggressive form of gun control that might actually conceivably happen, is no gun control at all.

I'm talking about an assault weapon ban, no confiscation.

It won't do anything because there's been decades of mass "assault weapon" buying and all that shit will be grandfathered.

And it will probably be either sunset or reversed later on anyway. It'll be a feel good token measure to make democrats feel a sense of accomplishment and annoy the right. And uhh, that's about it. People will still have guns, they'll still have ar-15's, and there will still be mass shootings.
 
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Get ready for your gun rights to be taken away from you after the recent shootings, only criminals will have guns.

Remember only law abiding citizens apply for permits, criminals just buy them off the street.

Get ready for war, Americans will never give up their gun rights.

i heard this a lot in the lead up to, and during, obama's 8 years in office. the democrats are coming to take your guns!

@LordOfThisWorld can you tell us how many of your guns were taken away by the obama administration?

thanks so much.

alasdair
 
Hmm, this crime resulted in the death of a cop rather than a bunch of Asian sex workers.

Who wants to bet we get no comments by the police on what a bad day the shooter had and how he was clearly at the end of his rope or other nonsense?

You don't get to have your crime just be a "bad day" for you if one of your victims is a cop and not some sex workers.
 
You don't get to have your crime just be a "bad day" for you if one of your victims is a cop and not some sex workers.
Yeah, the "bad day" comment was impolitic.

What was also impolitic was people screeching on Twitter about White male violence just because this guy wasn't dark in complexion; he turns out to have been Syrian—not a swarthy Arab, but debatably White at best by American standards at least. He apparently had a lot of Trump hate on his socials too.

Rumors were circulating that he had pledged bay'ah to Daesh, but now it seems these may have been premature. Nonetheless authorities and media are playing their hand pretty close when it comes to his motives and identity. 20 or even 10 years ago—Obama's "workplace violence" faux pas notwithstanding—it would have been very different. Everyone would be screaming "Islamic terrorism" already. Now even right-wing outlets that mentioned a confirmed terror connection are issuing corrections.

Interesting how times have changed. I find it incredibly striking that a Middle Eastern man can commit a shooting and people even unsympathetic sources are downright reluctant to say terrorism, whereas certain sectors were falling over themselves to call the last incident, committed by a White Christian man, terror. We've certainly fallen down a strange rabbit-hole.

I'm not saying this one was terrorism; I suspect that if it was, he would have left a statement of some kind, although Nidal Haasan did not leave one—his radical direct connections only became apparent when the feds seized his computer. Hassan also had mental health issues (which, in fairness, a lot of radicalized "terrorists" probably did—the Boston marathon bombers didn't seem too, but many suicide bombers in Palestine and elsewhere who were prevented from completing the act seem to.) It is super early to give anything other than the grossest speculation, but I suspect this young man (only 21) also had mental health issues—it'd be interesting if he had the same Aspergers-ridden profile young White shooters tend to have.

It's actually not out of the realm of possibility he's not Muslim—he's named Ahmed al-Issa, "Issa" being the Arabic name for Jesus, and a name given to Muslim but also many Christian Arabic speakers (n.b. Syrians speak Arabic but not Arabs, and don't like being called such), I think as a surname it's more popular among the latter; and a lot of Syrian Christians immigrated here in the early 00's, when his family did. If he is, then boy will there be some red faces among people who were shouting "ISIS, ISIS." If he's Muslim, which he could nonetheless be ("what's in a name?"), I would still be surprised if he hadn't mucked around with radical material. Regardless of religion, though, my money would still be on mental health issues in this macabre game of speculatory bingo. He was Muslim, but religion is not looking like a factor. See below.

As usual in these sad cases, though, sorting out a "reason" may be difficult. Here we do have a surviving shooter, though, and they like to talk. What I'll be also curious about is how the media chooses to play this one.
 
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In today's world/society I wonder about the people who don't have mental health issues lol. Those people scare me! :ROFLMAO:

I always found that talking point funny, especially when people in the GOP would make that argument re: mass shooting incidents, that it's primarily a "mental health issue", etc...it's like uh, ok, well then would you support making sure that there are well-funded, quality mental health resources for people to access, and ensuring that patients have access to quality healthcare resources regardless of their insurance status?

They're usually not too enthused about that kind of thing though
 
I always found that talking point funny, especially when people in the GOP would make that argument re: mass shooting incidents, that it's primarily a "mental health issue", etc...it's like uh, ok, well then would you support making sure that there are well-funded, quality mental health resources for people to access, and ensuring that patients have access to quality healthcare resources regardless of their insurance status?
I'm all for expanding and funding mental health services, but I'm a bit biased because they have been my employers for the better part of my adult life. On a more serious note I am passionately in favor of bringing back the old style longer stay state hospitals, which would actually get you better before releasing you, and keep indefinitely people who couldn't manage themselves, but that is probably a lost cause no matter how many crazy people do horrible things. And as many people as those folks kill, there will be easily two orders of magnitude more preventable suicides, and uncountably more lives that are just full of suffering.

Unfortunately, this is a nonstarter due to a thorny confluence of two ideas that are both rooted in different aspects of classical liberalism—personal autonomy for the mentally ill, and the reduction of paternalistic services rendered at the expense of the public. Both are arguments against having a functioning mental health system and were made respectively by the left and the right during the sea change years roughly 1965-1985. The result has been tragic with many avoidable deaths. Some but not all mass shootings included.
 

‘Very Anti-Social’: Suspect in Boulder Supermarket Massacre Was Paranoid, Brother Says​

ARVADA, Colorado—The 21-year-old man accused in the King Soopers grocery store massacre is a martial-arts buff with a history of violence whose own brother describes him as “very anti-social.”

Ahmad Al Aliwi Alissa allegedly stalked through the Boulder supermarket on Monday afternoon with a rifle and a pistol, firing shot after shot, and stripping off his combat vest and clothing until surrendering to a SWAT team.

He was charged with one count of first-degree murder for each of the 10 people killed: Denny Stong, 20; Neven Stanisic, 23; Rikki Olds, 25; Tralona Bartkowika, 49; Suzanne Fountain, 59; Teri Leiker, 51; Kevin Mahoney, 61; Lynn Murray, 62; Jody Waters, 65; and Boulder Police Officer Eric Talley, 51.

Investigators said that after the wounded, bloodied suspect was hauled out of the crime scene, he asked for his mother.

The motive for the nation’s second major mass shooting in a week remains unknown, but a family member said he believes the alleged shooter—a former high-school wrestler who was born in Syria but raised in Colorado—is mentally ill.

Ali Aliwi Alissa, 34, told The Daily Beast in a phone interview that his brother was paranoid, adding that in high school he would talk about “being chased, someone is behind him, someone is looking for him.”

“When he was having lunch with my sister in a restaurant, he said, ‘People are in the parking lot, they are looking for me.’ She went out, and there was no one. We didn’t know what was going on in his head,” he said.

He said he was sure the shooting was “not at all a political statement, it’s mental illness.”

“The guy used to get bullied a lot in high school. He was like an outgoing kid but after he went to high school and got bullied a lot, he started becoming anti-social,” the brother said.

Court records show Ahmad Alissa has at least one previous run-in with the law: an arrest after “cold cocking” a classmate at Arvada West High School in 2017.

According to court documents first obtained by KDVR, Alissa punched a classmate in the head without warning after he “had made fun of him and called him racial names weeks earlier.” The victim suffered bruising, swelling, and cuts to the head. Alissa pleaded guilty to an assault charge and was sentenced to two months of probation and 48 hours of community service in connection with that episode.

An Arvada Police spokesperson also confirmed Alissa had two interactions with local cops over the "past few years," including cases involving allegations of simple assault and criminal mischief.

On a now-deleted Facebook page, Alissa described himself as “born in Syria 1999 came to the USA in 2002. I like wrestling and informational documentaries that’s me.” He also said he was “interested in “computer engineering/ computer science.... kickboxing.” Posts about mixed martial arts, especially jiu jitsu, dominated the page. Alissa sometimes posted about Islam, often about prayer or holidays.

He shared pictures of himself in his wrestling uniform from Arvada West High, as well as wearing medals from a fighting association.

Conrad, a former wrestling teammate of the suspect who spoke under the condition his last name be withheld, told The Daily Beast he was deeply surprised by the allegations, but that Alissa did have a temper.

“One thing I can tell you is he didn’t take losing very well,” he said. “I remember that in wrestling. He would throw his headgear, wouldn’t talk to the coaches when he lost. If I remember correctly, even cussed out one of the coaches one time.”

In one Facebook post, the suspect appeared to express fears that someone was targeting his phone for Islamophobic reasons.

“Yeah if these racist islamophobic people would stop hacking my phone and let me have a normal life I probably could,” he posted in July 2019.


On Facebook, his politics appeared mixed throughout several camps. He shared an article rebuking Donald Trump’s stance on immigration, but also posted about his own opposition to gay marriage and abortion.

A day after the 2019 Christchurch mosque shootings in New Zealand, Alissa had shared a Facebook post from another user that read, “The Muslims at the #christchurch mosque were not the victims of a single shooter. They were the victims of the entire Islamophobia industry that vilified them.”

An arrest affidavit released Tuesday says Alissa purchased a Ruger AR-556 semiautomatic on March 16. A family member told police that Alissa had been playing with a “machine gun” just two days before the shooting and “had been talking about having a bullet stuck in the gun.”

On Monday, the Boulder Police Department was bombarded with “multiple” calls about Alissa, including one that he was armed with a “black AR-15” and “might have body armor on,” the affidavit says.

King Soopers employees told police the man shot “an elderly man in the parking lot” before walking up to him and shooting him several more times. Alissa had on a green tactical vest, a rifle, a semi-automatic handgun, and a pair of jeans, the affidavit says.

Sarah Moonshadow, a 42-year-old south Boulder resident, was buying strawberries with her 21-year-old son when the gunfire erupted. “He shot right at us. I didn’t look. I just ran,” she told The Daily Beast on Monday.

Boulder Police Officer Eric Talley was first on the scene, and Alissa allegedly shot him in the head. When SWAT teams arrived and entered the store, the suspect walked backward toward them to be taken into custody. He had “removed all of his clothing and was dressed only in shorts” and “had blood on his right thigh.”

Alissa spent the night in the hospital and was booked into the Boulder County Jail by Tuesday afternoon.

His brother, Ali Aliwi Alissa, said he traveled to another King Sooper’s location after work on Monday to look for a third sibling who had run an errand and couldn’t be reached. He said he found that relative in police custody, and that he and more family members were detained as well.

He said that police spent the night searching every corner of the home, which sits on the edge of a quiet cul-de-sac lined with two-story homes and a mix of Aspens, evergreens, basketball hoops, and bird feeders. Multiple generations of the family reside at the Arvada house, its roof covered with soar panels, a flagstone path leading to the backyard.

If the neighbors hadn’t seen the news online, they learned something was wrong around 9:30 p.m. Monday when an armada of vehicles arrived and stormed the block. “It looked like the house was surrounded by Navy SEALs,” said a 39-year-old pilot and neighbor, who was in bed next door when law enforcement arrived and declined to give his name.

Matt Benz, a 37-year-old investment manager who lives five doors down, woke up to a loudspearker asking everyone in the Alissa house to come to the front door. “It’s a quiet neighborhood, full of young families, that’s why we moved here,” he told The Daily Beast, detailing his shock at the news.

On Tuesday morning, a woman who identified herself as an older sister answered the door of the Alissa family home. She said she was floored, and the family never suspected their brother capable of committing this act of violence. “We’re shocked. He is nice, a quiet brother,” the 30-year-old told The Daily Beast, declining to give her name.

Asked what message the family had for the public, brother Ali Aliwi Alissa said: “I feel so sorry for the people that were shot by Ahmad. This was something I would have never expected Ahmad to do. What he did... why I don’t know.”

The events in Boulder unfolded just days after a gunman shot up three massage parlors in the metro Atlanta area, killing eight people, six of them Asian women.

Colorado has also been the scene of some of the nation’s worst mass shootings after the 1999 Columbine High School massacre that left 13 people dead. In 2012, an attack at an Aurora movie theater left 12 dead.

“I wish I could stand here and promise that pain will heal quickly," Colorado Gov. Jared Polis said during Tuesday’s press conference. “But it won’t... At times like this, it’s hard to see the light that shines through the darkness.”

“Not only did we lose ten lives, this is real horror and terror,” he added.


Definitely looking like mental health issues...some pre-existing but he is the right age for onset of paranoid schizophrenia. Obviously there is nowhere near enough to make a diagnosis, but his references to his phone being hacked and people watching him are classic. Some escalating behavior problems in high school aren't uncommon, either. He doesn't seem to fit the archetypical young male shooter profile so far, though—seemed reasonably well adjusted in high school, not a loner, did sports. More information will of course come out.

Religion and ideology are looking less and less like factors. The bit about paranoia of "islamophobes" is intriguing but could be a red herring.
 
In today's world/society I wonder about the people who don't have mental health issues lol. Those people scare me! :ROFLMAO:

I always found that talking point funny, especially when people in the GOP would make that argument re: mass shooting incidents, that it's primarily a "mental health issue", etc...it's like uh, ok, well then would you support making sure that there are well-funded, quality mental health resources for people to access, and ensuring that patients have access to quality healthcare resources regardless of their insurance status?

They're usually not too enthused about that kind of thing though

Ah I see you've worked out the trick.

There's no point banning guns because mass shootings are really a mental illness problem.

And we can't do anything about that either because spending tax payer money on health services is socialist.

So in short we shouldn't do anything, about anything. :D
 
Ah I see you've worked out the trick.

There's no point banning guns because mass shootings are really a mental illness problem.

And we can't do anything about that either because spending tax payer money on health services is socialist.

So in short we shouldn't do anything, about anything. :D
When we had a functioning mental health system, the situation with guns was actually better. See form ATF 4473, question 11(f)

tqwp4q.jpg


The way this is worded makes it apply to very few people these days. Getting involuntarily committed to a "mental institution" (not having an inpatient psychiatric stay, these are very different things) is very rare these days. In some states it is practically impossible unless you have committed a serious crime.

The law is trying to address the issues, but the insufficiencies of the mental health system aren't keeping up. When these laws were written people with serious psych issues were disqualified from gun ownership. Now it's a little bit of a gray area actually.

It's the fault of defunding mental health. The gun related laws are already there.
 
When we had a functioning mental health system, the situation with guns was actually better. See form ATF 4473, question 11(f)

tqwp4q.jpg


The way this is worded makes it apply to very few people these days. Getting involuntarily committed to a "mental institution" (not having an inpatient psychiatric stay, these are very different things) is very rare these days. In some states it is practically impossible unless you have committed a serious crime.

The law is trying to address the issues, but the insufficiencies of the mental health system aren't keeping up. When these laws were written people with serious psych issues were disqualified from gun ownership. Now it's a little bit of a gray area actually.

It's the fault of defunding mental health. The gun related laws are already there.

I don't see how funding mental health better will fix things on this respect. Even if you seek mental health treatment those records generally won't end up affecting a NICS check.

Even if you somehow fixed the NICS system and closed off non FFL/private purchases/the gun show loophole I don't see that making an enormous difference given the sheer quantity of guns in circulation.

But I'd argue that's about as far as you can realistically expect to get with gun control in America until there's a massive cultural shift or something.
 
I saw a video interview with this woke homeless black face santa recently.
He said, "Socialism without Capitalism is Communism, Capitalism without Socialism is Fascism"
That really stuck with me.
 
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