Social Justice Black Lives Matter Discussion Thread

[deficiT]

There's no lived black experience or lived gay experience. There are lived black experiences and lived gay experiences. Read Thomas Sowell and tell me every black person thinks the same.



This makes no sense. No white people are poor because of their ancestry?



No I suspect diversity of thought is extremely vast. That statement just struck me as odd. We're trying to discuss race. Obviously we perceive them quite differently so I know the odds are against me. Sometimes it becomes even more obvious all of a sudden that people are worlds apart.

Meaning that poverty in black communities is due to the color of their skin. Which it is in America. Again, black communities only just recently have been granted full access to the "American Dream". While white families have had economic rights since colonial times.

Of course black people aren't a monolith. But white privilege is real and has been studied and deliberated on ad nauseum. You just don't wish to see it because it's inconvenient for your worldview.

 

[cduggles]

No I suspect diversity of thought is extremely vast. That statement just struck me as odd. We're trying to discuss race. Obviously we perceive them quite differently so I know the odds are against me. Sometimes it becomes even more obvious all of a sudden that people are worlds apart.

I was seriously asking. I’ve seen posts where people write something like “well I don’t see color”, as if it implies that others don’t either. I don’t understand the import of the statement.

And honestly, I think we all see color because we are genetically hardwired to note similarities and differences in race at a very young age (i.e., measures in months).

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Meaning that poverty in black communities is due to the color of their skin. Which it is in America. Again, black communities only just recently have been granted full access to the "American Dream". While white families have had economic rights since colonial times.

Of course black people aren't a monolith. But white privilege is real and has been studied and deliberated on ad nauseum.

There are many problems with what you've said here.

Where are the rich black people back in Africa?

Privilege doesn't - cannot - include what the British had in their possession before interacting with a particular country. It should (if it exists at all) work like divorce. But then how do you work it out? We can't give them everything. If they were never enslaved in the first place, would they have more now?

Slavery is bad, obviously. I'm not a racist. But slavery being a bad thing doesn't make something else something that it isn't.

I do not believe African American communities are poor because they are still suffering from slavery. I don't think that is the driving force. Most Americans don't inherit a lot of money. White people aren't living on money that is being passed down generation after generation. Most of us aren't, anyway. The internal economies of African American communities has changed massively over the past century.

You just don't wish to see it because it's inconvenient for your worldview.

What is convenient?

 

[birdup.snaildown]

honestly, I think we all see color because we are genetically hardwired to note similarities and differences in race at a very young age

I didn't mean to say I'm literally color-blind. Obviously I can see variations in skin pigment, but I don't perceive people collectively according to their race... or (at least) I try not to. I would never presume to say white people think like this or black people do that. The idea of classifying people in this way is alien to me.

 

[cduggles]

I didn't mean to say I'm literally color-blind. Obviously I can see variations in skin pigment, but I don't perceive people collectively according to their race... or (at least) I try not to. I would never presume to say white people think like this or black people do that. The idea of classifying people in this way is alien to me.

Apologies for the lack of clarity- I didn’t mean you are stating that you are color blind.
Babies can read facial expressions of a larger number of races when younger. Then the ability becomes limited to fewer races in just a few months. And it’s not just a black/white thing.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Babies can read facial expressions of a larger number of races when younger.

Link?

 

[cduggles]

Link?

How Babies See Race

By nine months old, babies differentiate faces of their own race better than those in other races

www.scientificamerican.com

 

[birdup.snaildown]

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Link?

Not to say that it is incorrect but I am hesitant to take on new information without actually seeing the study. Did the infants have equal contact with people of all races? Would a black child raised by white parents result in the same preferential development? I don't know. The link to the study (on the article) is broken, but it doesn't matter if it is true or not. There are differences between men and women and there are differences across race. I'm curious to read the study but I'm usually left disappointed if I come in wanting to make a conclusion.

 

[JessFR]

I didn't mean to say I'm literally color-blind. Obviously I can see variations in skin pigment, but I don't perceive people collectively according to their race... or (at least) I try not to. I would never presume to say white people think like this or black people do that. The idea of classifying people in this way is alien to me.

I feel quite similar, I've often not even noticed say an actors race until it's come up or something. I don't like to say it cause it sounds like what idiots would call virtue signaling and I try not to do anything that would cause idiots to talk to me.

But since you bring it up :D. Yeah, I wish more people would focus less one race.

I don't think it's wrong to have prejudices against different cultures though. I honestly don't think all cultures are equal. And that's problematic because while cultures arent always linked with race, sometimes there's a strong racial overlap.

 

[cduggles]

When I posted about that study, I thought “what if he asks for a link?” because I was on the way out. So I grabbed the first reference I saw to the story.

I’m in a hurry rn, but I’ll find something better.

But the study is fairly well known. Not saying it’s perfectly designed, just that it’s very intriguing.

 

[cduggles]

Link?

Three-month-olds, but not newborns, prefer own-race faces

Adults are sensitive to the physical differences that define ethnic groups. However, the age at which we become sensitive to ethnic differences is currently unclear. Our study aimed to clarify this by testing newborns and young infants for sensitivity ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The introduction links to a number of well known studies, and is itself interesting in terms of the development of early racial preferences.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

So three-month olds that are largely raised by (and spend most of their time around) people with "own-race faces"? It is interesting, either way, but (either way) I don't think it's evidence of racism... or perhaps even race. A three month old is unlikely to understand race. It might be as simple as what is familiar and what isn't at such an early and vulnerable age. I don't know that you can conclude that adult perceptions of race are beginning to develop here.

I'm more sceptical of studies than I am religions.

Even the simplest of things are incredibly difficult to prove to the nth degree. When the study is a sensitive topic (like race) I am even more sceptical. I frankly assume there is a bias until I determine there isn't one.

Some doctors proved that heterosexual men show signs of arousal when exposed to homosexual pornography. This study has been done a couple of times. It seems to indicate that all men are bisexual, but it is possible that what is being observed as arousal is something else.

It makes sense to me that babies feel safe with their kind. It also makes sense that men (beyond labels) are horny little animals who will just about fuck anything that moves. So you can conclude that everyone is a racist bisexual, or take it with a grain of salt. I opt for the former.

There's no question that racism exists, but the BLM movement is disproportionately loud about an issue that still deserves a voice but doesn't need to desperately shout in the streets.

 

[cduggles]

I’m referencing the fact that we are hardwired to begin noticing racial differences at a very young age, and this is born out by a number of studies, as is a racial preference. These studies have been done across different cultures and hold consistent.
This is evidence to me that we are hardwired from a very young age to be able to discriminate between races at a very young age. The reason for this is likely related to survival, like caretaker recognition, but the point is that the argument that one doesn’t notice race is untrue on a fundamental level that you aren’t even aware of.
Here’s a study that uses fMRI to show that “a network of interacting brain regions is important in the unintentional, implicit expression of racial attitudes and its control.” It also references the implicit association test, which is a well established way to measure implicit cognition.

The neuroscience of race - Nature Neuroscience

The authors review recent research examining how social categories of race and ethnicity are processed, evaluated and incorporated in decision-making. They also speculate about the potential of future work to inform how we recognize and respond to variations in race and its influence on...

www.nature.com

I’m not citing controversial data here. It’s been reproduced across cultures and the data from different study methodologies track together to produce a coherent model. There are ways in which areas like the prefrontal cortex can “dispute” implicit racial bias, but the fact is that the bias exists.
So while you might not integrate the data on a conscious level, your brain detects racial differences at an early age and demonstrates preferences. These preferences remain in adulthood.
I doubt you’ll read the studies, but it’s interesting stuff imo, and it basically destroys the idea that racial detection and bias don’t begin early and don’t persist, likely throughout life.
This body of data is why I don’t believe the argument that people are colorblind or that race doesn’t matter to them, and I think it’s more than a little compelling.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Okay, like I said obviously people can detect race. I still think you are taking colour blindness too literally. I've said everybody is probably racist. I can't imagine someone is exactly zero percent racist, but that doesn't mean race "matters" to everyone either. Certainly not equally. I think you're taking something small and expanding it in more directions than it warrants. I'm not going to read the study in full, not because it doesn't interest me (it does) I just don't have the time... having said that I'm fairly certain I wouldn't be blown away if I read it. I have a history of being disappointed by links.

Whether or not people are capable of differentiating race from an early age and what that means are two different things.

I honestly don't see how any of this is relevant. It's interesting, as you say, but what does it have to do with BLM?

edit/

I had a look through the study. I imagine if there was a study that compared infant perception of men vs women (rather than black vs white) there wouldn't be neutral data either... but that just means - what - that men are not women and white is not black? Locating parts of the brain that are active when certain topics are discussed isn't exactly a sophisticated science. They don't really know how the brain works.

 

[cduggles]

They don't really know how the brain works.

It’s not phrenology!
I’m glad you took a look (although the first one was more interesting to me).
And interestingly, an infant with a male as a primary caregiver prefers male faces to females. I did not know that.

 

[What 23]

White people in countries they live in, that are destinations for the peoples world, are on trajectory to becoming minorities. Yes, that amounts to an attack, even if not personal- An invasive plant doesn't really have the plants that it crowds out in mind, when it just likes the fertile ground. Unabashed, yes, I'd rather white people continue to reign dominant, there, and everywhere, and I don't think they need to be "accountable" to these others, if not themselves...

 

[What 23]

The fact is people will notice differences, and they try to pattern match, and this itself is with issue. There is enough of a difference between white and black or Subsaharan African and Northwestern European the seed population sources for most places being emigrated into, where people with 99% accuracy will be able to tell the "difference". Maybe it wouldn't matter if over 100,000 years Libya mixed with Egypt mixed with Sudan... etc. Egypt with Israel with Turkey with Greece... with Iran... but this is over a short span of very few years, and none of this is "natural". You don't want to call it race. Fine. I don't care if I'm White - I'm going to be found in a population meaningfully different in many ways, from others. To expect us all to just orient perfectly - together, is a grand expectation and unfair to all of those this is expected of. We can't just wash over the differences, just because "we have to get somewhere!", and Lincoln was right:

“I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races … I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”

 

[What 23]

Part 3: I don't think any of this justifies "being mean" to others. I don't blame outsiders, such as Blacks, or Mexicans, or Whatever - those regular people just looking to make a better life. I blame bad management in world systems and government, and lacks of leadership that allow the children to run amok... in various ways. I blame greed... I blame Godlessness.

Still I understand that these, despite this not being the best of circumstances, are my neighbors- Even if it's not the most ideal of circumstances that they are, or that they have to live around White people. I mean there are so many complaints (living with White people)...

But I recognize that they are my neighbors, where I am.

And I do, generally treat them as such. But I believe there is a certain shelling up that occurs, in different ways. I don't think this is exactly healthy, again- Still again I don't advocate hateful action - but what is racial equality? Really?

Just how must we "try" to bring it about? I use blonds as an example, as an extreme white, that I might prefer, but generally, especially with women, I find "white" or caucasian women to be the most beautiful, most worth fighting and dying for. Do I change or alter -somehow my perception, my passion, my tendencies to like, do I deny them, to fake, and "branch" out to, if I was in such a position to, to accept or be with a Black girl, or other girl, just to try to work toward this Marxist Communist Utopia of radical and racial equality?

Do I - if I am in a position to - give the position to a young black person over a young white person who may be equal or better, in my limited class, or competitive position that I may offer, just to bring about some idea, forced as it were, of "racial equality"?

Do we need laws that prevent us from freely associating, socially, in some way? Diversity quotas? Do I need to hire more Black people, or bring them into my institutions, just because there "aren't enough" of them, relative to numbers of whites? Do the White and Asian kids have to have a handicap placed on their futures, for "racial equality"? And if so, well, this is the only way, anyway (populations will perform differently from a base-start, differences seen will be associated with these differences...), and this is why I find the whole thing bullshit.

I'm all about being nice. But at some point, it is not up to me. And I also don't find this "nice", to whites (whatever, people). And I don't really think that the perceived "needs" of these others ("the world", to get inside their lands, among their nations), means their bodies, minds, get stripped apart and repurposed... That they need to sacrifice, or should be expected to, for it. To just give up. To back down. To say, after all this time, fighting, that it never mattered who or what, won the fight. This nihilistic bullshit...

Is it "racial equality" if special privileges, or considerations, are to be given to some, but not others, based on race?...

I do feel it's a very complicated situation. I don't think either "side" has really given it its due credit.

I think there are reasons why both sides fight...

 

[JessFR]

I wanna point out that just because a baby shows a racial bias, doesn't mean an adult has the same degree of racial recognition.

There's a lot of abilities and behaviors babies exhibit that humans lose over time or stop doing because of learned behaviors.