Global Politics China Discussion

[Wilson Wilson]

Shouldn't China be experiencing a growing middle class given where it is in terms of economic development? It's economy hasn't matured like USA and Western Europe. I think the communist party needs to keep growing the Chinese middle class and raising people out of poverty or they are going to have problems governing the country more than they already do. One effect will be that a lot more Chinese wealth will be available for Chinese to invest in companies and real estate in the rest of the world. Housing in developed countries is getting more expensive relative to incomes, and manufacturing is moving to lower cost countries, so the middles class is getting squeezed pretty hard these days. The increase in the share Americans that are 'lower class' over the past 10 years or so is something like 25-30% I think.

I mean, where it is in terms of economic development is basically about to overtake the US any second... why do you think Trump and his fanboys are so scared of "Chyna"? China practically owns the US - for real look at how many of your treasury bonds they own - and they are basically loaning the US money so they can keep buying their exports.

If they wanted China could collapse the US economy tomorrow. Think what would happen to the USD if they just dumped their $1 trillion in treasury bonds. Currently this is not in their best interests, but if Trump keeps provoking China he shouldn't be surprised when they play dirty.

I don't think there will be any kind of actual physical war, but I can certainly see a war of "soft power" already taking place before our eyes. No one is paying attention so China is buying everything up while the populous is distracted by Trump's coke fuelled Twitter rants.

 

[Jabberwocky]

At the end of the day China needs to keep developing and growing wealthier or they're going to be stuck as a second rate economy and political power like Russia.

I think China's legal system is not open and there are huge problems with IP protection. There's no way America can compete to its best advantage if the legal system is skewed and IP rights are not enforced. These problems predate Trump which is why so many Americans support are harder trade approach on China. The biggest problem in my mind is that Trump is the one who has final say on the American side and he's bumbling crackpot.

 

[Wilson Wilson]

At the end of the day China needs to keep developing and growing wealthier or they're going to be stuck as a second rate economy and political power like Russia.

I think China's legal system is not open and there are huge problems with IP protection. There's no way America can compete to its best advantage if the legal system is skewed and IP rights are not enforced. These problems predate Trump which is why so many Americans support are harder trade approach on China. The biggest problem in my mind is that Trump is the one who has final say on the American side and he's bumbling crackpot.

China has greatly increased their enforcement of Western IP. That's why all these Western luxury brands are opening up shop there. The government likes this because it's more money into their economy so they are coming down hard on black market operations making counterfeit goods for example. They now operate in the back of shady markets and cover their faces. The Chinese markets known for counterfeiting often go as far as to never allow Chinese people in, but instead only tourists, to make sure no police see what's going on. They know if they get caught they will get arrested. They no longer openly sell fake stuff in China like they used to 10 years ago trust me.

The issue China does have with IP comes from their authorities hacking companies that do business there to steal their R&D. But they can get away with crazy shit like this as long as they dominate manufacturing. It certainly hasn't stopped American companies from using China for manufacturing.

Honestly China will easily overtake the US in just a few years at this rate and once they do the US will realise how much they have come to rely on China. They can hardly move production back to the US. What will be interesting is seeing if they move production to Vietnam or India, and how much that'd actually affect China's economy as they keep growing their soft power.

Only time will tell, but I am pretty confident in predicting that China will indeed "beat America on trade" as Trump says.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Having never been to China, I don't know what its like right now. I'm on the U.S. West Coast and China port trade is huge out here. I have stuff coming across my desk every day from Chinese importers because its just a fact of life China handles a lot of the manufacturing and production of raw goods for North America. Usually its no problem but other times disputes come up so we need to deal with People's Republic companies directly and its a pain. Usually no one's going to agree to resolve a dispute in China, they'll go for Singapore, Seoul, or Hong Kong but not People's Republic. Kind of like Russians using UK courts. On another note, and off topic, has it ever occurred to anyone outside the USA that the reason why Trump likes tariffs is because they act as regressive taxes? The Republicans policy is cut taxes for top earners and use tariffs as regressive taxes. That and Trump's nominated someone for the federal reserve who advocates going back to the gold standard, which is bizarre to me. Boris may be an asshole but at least he's not a nut job too.

 

[CoastTwoCoast]

For all of our problems, I still love America. We have many freedoms other countries do not, like the ability to access information that goes beyond what they are spoonfeeding the masses...Which really gives no excuse to the ignorance going on. Europe is no better, much evil comes from there too.

 

[JessFR]

For all of our problems, I still love America. We have many freedoms other countries do not, like the ability to access information that goes beyond what they are spoonfeeding the masses...Which really gives no excuse to the ignorance going on. Europe is no better, much evil comes from there too.

I do to. I love what America is supposed to be about. Saddly we've done a poor job living up to it.

But I still love America and want her to prosper.

Unfortunately her leaders have failed and betrayed her, and her citizens let them.

 

[draculic acid69]

India and Vietnam aren't going to be an issue.for a while at least.if China puts money into Africa were all screwed.the only place that will care less about worker safety or health and work cheaper will be africa.smart money is on them being a threat.

 

[Wilson Wilson]

On another note, and off topic, has it ever occurred to anyone outside the USA that the reason why Trump likes tariffs is because they act as regressive taxes? The Republicans policy is cut taxes for top earners and use tariffs as regressive taxes.

The problem here is again it will affect American businesses and individuals more than China. Every country in the world buys materials and manufactured goods from China, if America imposes tariffs they will just be passed back onto the costs American companies will pay to do business with China, and in turn those companies will pass those extra costs onto consumers.

It's like if you increase corporation tax all that happens is companies increase their prices and decrease wages to protect their profit margin, so any increase in taxes levied on businesses will hit the average person.

India and Vietnam aren't going to be an issue.for a while at least.if China puts money into Africa were all screwed.the only place that will care less about worker safety or health and work cheaper will be africa.smart money is on them being a threat.

I agree about Vietnam but India is already tooling up and has working factories there. Xiaomi makes some of their stuff there already and Foxconn is opening a factory soon so they've got deals with China. But then you can see the problem already can't you? The manufacturing in India is still run by Chinese companies.

You're right about Africa though, China is investing heavily over there. Africans hate it because the Chinese will open up in an African country and hire only Chinese people not any of the native population.

 

[draculic acid69]

India is gunna be the next China if the Africans don't get there first.thing is though China is literally poisoning its own country to be the best and they'll only be able to do it for so long.

 

[morpher001]

The problem here is again it will affect American businesses and individuals more than China. Every country in the world buys materials and manufactured goods from China, if America imposes tariffs they will just be passed back onto the costs American companies will pay to do business with China, and in turn those companies will pass those extra costs onto consumers.

It's like if you increase corporation tax all that happens is companies increase their prices and decrease wages to protect their profit margin, so any increase in taxes levied on businesses will hit the average person.

Thats the whole point isnt it?

So Americans aren't buying cheap Chinese goods. Those good are cheap often because of the lower cost of labour in China. Which is a nice way of saying: with all the slave labor in China, its easy to make things more cheaply than it is in America.

Nice to pay less for things at the expense of those slaves, sure. It surely stings a bit being brought back what the normal cost of things would be without the slaves.

But on the bright side, now the American labor force doesnt need to compete with slaves in order to find employment - local industries become competitive again.

Also, the money doesn't leave the country so America avoids sliding further and further into debt.

 

[morpher001]

For all of our problems, I still love America. We have many freedoms other countries do not, like the ability to access information that goes beyond what they are spoonfeeding the masses...Which really gives no excuse to the ignorance going on. Europe is no better, much evil comes from there too.

Interesting that you hurry to excuse those who are 'spoonfeeding the masses' and blame the citizenry who by necessity place their faith in certain information channels and who have been let down. Blame them because they have an internet connection.

As you say though, the principles on which America was founded are admirable and there is still much to be said for America and Americans. I hope they stop fighting amongst themselves and get back to those basics again.

 

[CoastTwoCoast]

Interesting that you hurry to excuse those who are 'spoonfeeding the masses' and blame the citizenry who by necessity place their faith in certain information channels and who have been let down. Blame them because they have an internet connection.

As you say though, the principles on which America was founded are admirable and there is still much to be said for America and Americans. I hope they stop fighting amongst themselves and get back to those basics again.

If you've read my posts I openly speak about how messed up the American government is. I do not excuse anything they do so you are sadly mistaken.

I do put some blame on people for just accepting everything they are told when we have the information at our fingertips. It seems most people are not willing to go beyond that and anyone who does is labeled a "conspiracy theorist" and other insulting things. It's not a conspiracy theory when the truth is evident more and more each day.

 

[Wilson Wilson]

Thats the whole point isnt it?

So Americans aren't buying cheap Chinese goods. Those good are cheap often because of the lower cost of labour in China. Which is a nice way of saying: with all the slave labor in China, its easy to make things more cheaply than it is in America.

Nice to pay less for things at the expense of those slaves, sure. It surely stings a bit being brought back what the normal cost of things would be without the slaves.

But on the bright side, now the American labor force doesnt need to compete with slaves in order to find employment - local industries become competitive again.

Also, the money doesn't leave the country so America avoids sliding further and further into debt.

Are you trying to say manufacturing will come back to the US? No, not gonna happen. Never in a million years.

If manufacturing does move from China it will be to India or Africa, other countries with cheap labour pools. But also countries where Chinese companies are already heavily invested, so China still profits.

 

[morpher001]

If you've read my posts I openly speak about how messed up the American government is. I do not excuse anything they do so you are sadly mistaken.

I do put some blame on people for just accepting everything they are told when we have the information at our fingertips. It seems most people are not willing to go beyond that and anyone who does is labeled a "conspiracy theorist" and other insulting things. It's not a conspiracy when the truth is evident more and more each day.

I was actually referring to the media more so than the government.

And I was trying to highlight how easy it is for the discussion to become about the responsibility of the victim for not being more careful (I do agree people should be more conscientious btw), instead of focusing on the fox in the henhouse.

 

[CoastTwoCoast]

I was actually referring to the media more so than the government.

And I was trying to highlight how easy it is for the discussion to become about the responsibility of the victim for not being more careful (I do agree people should be more conscientious btw), instead of focusing on the fox in the henhouse.

Government controls media, that's how they brainwash people so it's one and the same to me. Oh I focus on the fox in the henhouse plenty. haha

 

[Jabberwocky]

Are you trying to say manufacturing will come back to the US? No, not gonna happen. Never in a million years.

If manufacturing does move from China it will be to India or Africa, other countries with cheap labour pools. But also countries where Chinese companies are already heavily invested, so China still profits.

I'm not worried about US corporations, they'll source their materials and labor from wherever the numbers add up. Gotta keep the shareholders happy or they'll take their money elsewhere. Local manufacturing makes sense where there is local consumer demand.

 

[morpher001]

Are you trying to say manufacturing will come back to the US? No, not gonna happen. Never in a million years.

If manufacturing does move from China it will be to India or Africa, other countries with cheap labor pools. But also countries where Chinese companies are already heavily invested, so China still profits.

Maybe you are right that India and Africa will be targeted by the multinationals.

I see your point about tariffs being a clunky solution for the reason.

Any ideas on what might be a more direct or effective approach? Because I worry about the consequences of accepting an inevitable ongoing decline in American industry. That Americans might end up inheriting the poverty of those counties whos cheap labor they leverage. Unless there is a change of direction and soon.

 

[morpher001]

Government controls media, that's how they brainwash people so it's one and the same to me. Oh I focus on the fox in the henhouse plenty. haha

The Government controls, or broadly speaking is it actually the other way around?

I know you do. Just sometimes when you see foxes I see roosters or more hens. All part of the fun

 

[Asclepius]

Maybe you are right that India and Africa will be targeted by the multinationals.

I see your point about tariffs being a clunky solution for the reason.

Any ideas on what might be a more direct or effective approach? Because I worry about the consequences of accepting an inevitable ongoing decline in American industry. That Americans might end up inheriting the poverty of those counties whos cheap labor they leverage. Unless there is a change of direction and soon.

 

[Crackedout420]

I think theres an awakening going on right now but people are becoming aware of the wrong things. So concerned with saving the planet and yes I get it but what about the fact that were being forced to work 9-5 jobs just to control the masses. We are being controlled by being told we need to work for a piece of paper to buy the same things we bought we last pay day to survive . This is all a tactic, if were being forced into working daily, we dont have time to figure out that they're controlling us.