This was originally written for another forum so keep that in mind while reading..
So I’ve noticed this asked around here a bit so figured I’d go dive back into some research articles to prove this point..
In this post I’m going to show how Repeated dosing in one session is bad for your health and why you should stick to (at most) one booster dose not long after your initial dose. I’m also going to go against the time honored “3 month rule” and show evidence that b2b rolling isn’t so bad as long dosages are kept small and you keep on average to 4-6 times a year.
Let’s start with this article..
scholar.google.com
Effect of ambient temperature and a prior neurotoxic dose of 3, 4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) on the hyperthermic response of rats to a single or repeated (‘binge …
A Richard Green, Veronica Sanchez, Esther O’Shea, Kathryn S Saadat, J Martin Elliott, M Isabel Colado
Psychopharmacology 173 (3-4), 264-269, 2004
In this article they gave MDMA at a variety of doses and dosing regimens, while simultaneously checking for hyperthermia. It should be noted hyperthermia (increased body temperature, fever) goes hand in hand with MDMA neurotoxicity.
They found 5mg/kg IP had no hyperthermic reaction in a environment of 19C. But did find dose dependent hyperthermic responses when 2mg/kg, 4mg/kg and 6mg/kg were dosed in three separate doses.
As the authors say,..
“Binge dosing produces a higher final peak response than a similar non-divided dose. This effect is more marked in animals housed at high room temperature.”
Next article will show that indeed you want to dose as soon as possible if you do want to redose.
scholar.google.com
Human pharmacology of 3, 4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA, ecstasy) after repeated doses taken 2 h apart
AM Peiró, M Farré, PN Roset, M Carbó, M Pujadas, M Torrens, J Camí, R De la Torre
Psychopharmacology 225 (4), 883-893, 2013
In this article subjects were given 100mg or 50mg plus 100mg 2 hours later. It was found that,
“After the second dose, physiological effects, psychomotor performance, and subjective effects were lower than expected especially for euphoria and stimulation.”
So it seems the anecdotal info is correct, unless you want to waste your MDMA while simultaneously getting increased neurotoxicity, don’t redose to long past 60-90min post initial dose.
Also this shows that the old “work up to a proper dose” isn’t smart with MDMA.
Edit- More to be found on redosing.. Ran out of time.
——————————————————————
Now let’s get into b2b dosing, or dosing before the 3 month rule. This rule came about from people like myself honestly, I’ve been spouting harm reduction for many years and 3months was what a few of us seemed to arrive at. It’s amazing to see that people listened, unfortunately it’s gone a little far these days.
By far I mean people unnecessarily worrying and somewhat removing the fun from the drug. In the end sometimes things come up where you want to roll sooner than 3months, or like my case you have a festival or two you’d like to roll b2b. Well it ain’t as bad as you may think, and if anything may actually be SAFER! (Lol I know I’ll get downvoted before people even finish reading this now.)
Let’s start with this one here..
www.sciencedirect.com
The relationship between the degree of neurodegeneration of rat brain 5-HT nerve terminals and the dose and frequency of administration of MDMA (`ecstasy')
A quote from the article..
“A single injection (4–15 mg/kg i.p.) of MDMA produced immediate dose-related hyperthermia and a dose-related decrease in 5-HT, 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid (5-HIAA) and [3H]paroxetine binding in regions of the brain 7 days later, with a dose of 4 mg/kg having no degenerative effect. This dose was also without effect when given once daily for 4 days, but produced a marked loss of [3H]paroxetine binding and indole concentration (≈55%) when given twice daily for 4 days. When a dose of 4 mg/kg was given twice weekly for 8 weeks it had no effect on these serotoninergic markers, despite a clear anorectic effect of the drug being seen.”
This shows that at 4mg/kg taken once a day there is no toxicity seem even after 4 days. They also do twice weekly for 8 weeks with no effect of serotonin markers!! By contrast redosing that 4mg/kg twice a day for four days had a marked decrease in serotonin markers..
This article not only shows that low doses taken once a day won’t cause problems, but also seems to bolster the argument that redosing is bad for you.
They finish the article with a idea that I full heartedly believe through my own personal use as well as my research.
“We suggest that damage occurs when endogenous free radical scavenging mechanisms become overwhelmed or exhausted.”
I’ll show by the end why this is true and why b2b dosing can be done safely so long as your good about your antioxidant rich supplements.
Here’s our next article..
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Repeated exposure to MDMA provides neuroprotection against subsequent MDMA-induced serotonin depletion in brain.
Bhide NS, et al. Brain Res. 2009.
In this article they talk about something called “preconditioning” which I’ve also spoken about in this sub. It is the idea that by giving non-serotonin depleting doses once a day for a number of days, they could then give a neurotoxic dose/regimen and be afforded protection.
In this study 10mg/kg once a day was considered non-depleting, this was done for four days. On the fifth day a neurotoxic dosage was given, (10mg/kg every 2 hours, 4 injections total) and we’re afforded neuroprotection.
What does this mean? Well again it seems single doses of MDMA are not all that toxic even as much as 10mg/kg for mice. But what’s even more interesting is that this “preconditioning” protects the brain from a high known toxic dosage.
This is why I argue b2b could be safer than every 3 months since this “preconditioning” mechanism, whatever it may be, is in place from the first dose affording the user more protection on the second dose.
Even if it doesn’t, it is very apparent once a day dosing at reasonable dosages isn’t too bad compared to redosing in a night.
I’ll finish with my own personal data. I’ve been rolling for 15yrs, and have found that there doesn’t seem to be any downsides to rolling b2b SO LONG AS I TAKE THE PROPER ANTIOXIDANTS!!! (I’ve experienced zero tolerance build, which likely indicates I’ve had little if any toxicity take place. Many research articles link toxicity and tolerance as going hand in hand.)
Did you just read that people? It goes back to what the other article said.. That neurotoxicity is directly related to our free radical scavenging/antioxidant System. Dosing MDMA ups the free radicals by 400% in our bodies so we need to compensate for that.
Back when I didn’t consume antioxidants, and didn’t eat healthy, I’d feel the days after when going b2b but these days I get a bigger afterglow from b2b rolling compared to spacing them out.
Also the roll the second night can be better so long as you were reasonable on dosage the first night, as the enzymes are still saturated from the night before.
With all this said, YOU MUST keep the first night dosage reasonable.. Research shows that if the first night dosage was too high your in greater danger the second night. What is exactly “too high”? That we don’t really know yet, but based on anecdotal data keeping under 175-200mg seems safe.
Which brings me around to the reason the 3 month rule got started and why most of you should still follow it.. Most can’t follow all the rules required to safely roll b2b.. Most can’t keep it to one reasonable dose the first night. Eating healthy the days before and after. Taking antioxidant supplements. Making sure your yearly average stays at or below 6... (This last one being the most important.)
It’s these reasons why I’m hesitant to even mention this shit. Because I know someone will use it to help justify their abuse. I’m sorry to that person but I also feel the truth is more important.
In the end total yearly average is more important but for many newer users they don’t truly know if they can handle sticking to that yet. I’d say, don’t start fucking with “breaking the 3month rule” until you’ve been rolling for a few years and can trust yourself to not start rolling every week.
Gotta go for now, ask any questions and I’ll respond when I can.. Will add more when I can.
-GC
So I’ve noticed this asked around here a bit so figured I’d go dive back into some research articles to prove this point..
In this post I’m going to show how Repeated dosing in one session is bad for your health and why you should stick to (at most) one booster dose not long after your initial dose. I’m also going to go against the time honored “3 month rule” and show evidence that b2b rolling isn’t so bad as long dosages are kept small and you keep on average to 4-6 times a year.
Let’s start with this article..
Google Scholar
Effect of ambient temperature and a prior neurotoxic dose of 3, 4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) on the hyperthermic response of rats to a single or repeated (‘binge …
A Richard Green, Veronica Sanchez, Esther O’Shea, Kathryn S Saadat, J Martin Elliott, M Isabel Colado
Psychopharmacology 173 (3-4), 264-269, 2004
In this article they gave MDMA at a variety of doses and dosing regimens, while simultaneously checking for hyperthermia. It should be noted hyperthermia (increased body temperature, fever) goes hand in hand with MDMA neurotoxicity.
They found 5mg/kg IP had no hyperthermic reaction in a environment of 19C. But did find dose dependent hyperthermic responses when 2mg/kg, 4mg/kg and 6mg/kg were dosed in three separate doses.
As the authors say,..
“Binge dosing produces a higher final peak response than a similar non-divided dose. This effect is more marked in animals housed at high room temperature.”
Next article will show that indeed you want to dose as soon as possible if you do want to redose.
Google Scholar
Human pharmacology of 3, 4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA, ecstasy) after repeated doses taken 2 h apart
AM Peiró, M Farré, PN Roset, M Carbó, M Pujadas, M Torrens, J Camí, R De la Torre
Psychopharmacology 225 (4), 883-893, 2013
In this article subjects were given 100mg or 50mg plus 100mg 2 hours later. It was found that,
“After the second dose, physiological effects, psychomotor performance, and subjective effects were lower than expected especially for euphoria and stimulation.”
So it seems the anecdotal info is correct, unless you want to waste your MDMA while simultaneously getting increased neurotoxicity, don’t redose to long past 60-90min post initial dose.
Also this shows that the old “work up to a proper dose” isn’t smart with MDMA.
Edit- More to be found on redosing.. Ran out of time.
——————————————————————
Now let’s get into b2b dosing, or dosing before the 3 month rule. This rule came about from people like myself honestly, I’ve been spouting harm reduction for many years and 3months was what a few of us seemed to arrive at. It’s amazing to see that people listened, unfortunately it’s gone a little far these days.
By far I mean people unnecessarily worrying and somewhat removing the fun from the drug. In the end sometimes things come up where you want to roll sooner than 3months, or like my case you have a festival or two you’d like to roll b2b. Well it ain’t as bad as you may think, and if anything may actually be SAFER! (Lol I know I’ll get downvoted before people even finish reading this now.)
Let’s start with this one here..
The relationship between the degree of neurodegeneration of rat brain 5-HT nerve terminals and the dose and frequency of administration of MDMA (`ecstasy')
The effect of varying the dose and frequency of administration of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA or `ecstasy') on both the acute hyperthermic…
The relationship between the degree of neurodegeneration of rat brain 5-HT nerve terminals and the dose and frequency of administration of MDMA (`ecstasy')
A quote from the article..
“A single injection (4–15 mg/kg i.p.) of MDMA produced immediate dose-related hyperthermia and a dose-related decrease in 5-HT, 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid (5-HIAA) and [3H]paroxetine binding in regions of the brain 7 days later, with a dose of 4 mg/kg having no degenerative effect. This dose was also without effect when given once daily for 4 days, but produced a marked loss of [3H]paroxetine binding and indole concentration (≈55%) when given twice daily for 4 days. When a dose of 4 mg/kg was given twice weekly for 8 weeks it had no effect on these serotoninergic markers, despite a clear anorectic effect of the drug being seen.”
This shows that at 4mg/kg taken once a day there is no toxicity seem even after 4 days. They also do twice weekly for 8 weeks with no effect of serotonin markers!! By contrast redosing that 4mg/kg twice a day for four days had a marked decrease in serotonin markers..
This article not only shows that low doses taken once a day won’t cause problems, but also seems to bolster the argument that redosing is bad for you.
They finish the article with a idea that I full heartedly believe through my own personal use as well as my research.
“We suggest that damage occurs when endogenous free radical scavenging mechanisms become overwhelmed or exhausted.”
I’ll show by the end why this is true and why b2b dosing can be done safely so long as your good about your antioxidant rich supplements.
Here’s our next article..
PubMed
PubMed® comprises more than 38 million citations for biomedical literature from MEDLINE, life science journals, and online books. Citations may include links to full text content from PubMed Central and publisher web sites.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Repeated exposure to MDMA provides neuroprotection against subsequent MDMA-induced serotonin depletion in brain.
Bhide NS, et al. Brain Res. 2009.
In this article they talk about something called “preconditioning” which I’ve also spoken about in this sub. It is the idea that by giving non-serotonin depleting doses once a day for a number of days, they could then give a neurotoxic dose/regimen and be afforded protection.
In this study 10mg/kg once a day was considered non-depleting, this was done for four days. On the fifth day a neurotoxic dosage was given, (10mg/kg every 2 hours, 4 injections total) and we’re afforded neuroprotection.
What does this mean? Well again it seems single doses of MDMA are not all that toxic even as much as 10mg/kg for mice. But what’s even more interesting is that this “preconditioning” protects the brain from a high known toxic dosage.
This is why I argue b2b could be safer than every 3 months since this “preconditioning” mechanism, whatever it may be, is in place from the first dose affording the user more protection on the second dose.
Even if it doesn’t, it is very apparent once a day dosing at reasonable dosages isn’t too bad compared to redosing in a night.
I’ll finish with my own personal data. I’ve been rolling for 15yrs, and have found that there doesn’t seem to be any downsides to rolling b2b SO LONG AS I TAKE THE PROPER ANTIOXIDANTS!!! (I’ve experienced zero tolerance build, which likely indicates I’ve had little if any toxicity take place. Many research articles link toxicity and tolerance as going hand in hand.)
Did you just read that people? It goes back to what the other article said.. That neurotoxicity is directly related to our free radical scavenging/antioxidant System. Dosing MDMA ups the free radicals by 400% in our bodies so we need to compensate for that.
Back when I didn’t consume antioxidants, and didn’t eat healthy, I’d feel the days after when going b2b but these days I get a bigger afterglow from b2b rolling compared to spacing them out.
Also the roll the second night can be better so long as you were reasonable on dosage the first night, as the enzymes are still saturated from the night before.
With all this said, YOU MUST keep the first night dosage reasonable.. Research shows that if the first night dosage was too high your in greater danger the second night. What is exactly “too high”? That we don’t really know yet, but based on anecdotal data keeping under 175-200mg seems safe.
Which brings me around to the reason the 3 month rule got started and why most of you should still follow it.. Most can’t follow all the rules required to safely roll b2b.. Most can’t keep it to one reasonable dose the first night. Eating healthy the days before and after. Taking antioxidant supplements. Making sure your yearly average stays at or below 6... (This last one being the most important.)
It’s these reasons why I’m hesitant to even mention this shit. Because I know someone will use it to help justify their abuse. I’m sorry to that person but I also feel the truth is more important.
In the end total yearly average is more important but for many newer users they don’t truly know if they can handle sticking to that yet. I’d say, don’t start fucking with “breaking the 3month rule” until you’ve been rolling for a few years and can trust yourself to not start rolling every week.
Gotta go for now, ask any questions and I’ll respond when I can.. Will add more when I can.
-GC
This is a good one. :D!
