• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

Big problem with Pramipexole

It is not so, when very rarely Cipralex had effect, all was ok and up in 30 minutes, joy, mood and other, but after a day all good is gone, didn`t mather that i took cipralex daily.
Also this is resistent depression.

With LSD or others, i don`t wish this.
LSD is danger, to some a little quantity of LSD was retained somewhere in the spine, and..after 1-2 weeks they have stong hallucination without to take LSD. I red this.
A man has his penis destroyed in his halluciantion, also...
LSD is too a 5HT2A serotonin receptors stimulant, also anxiety cand grow very much.

Much ppl with pheno go in sleep, is like pento but is long acting, the max peak plasma concentration is reached in 12 hours, and half life is aproximatively 80 hours.
Adult Oral Dosage, is not only anti-seizure medication:

1. Daytime sedative: 30 to 120 mg daily in 2 to 3 divided doses.
2. Bedtime hypnotic: 100 to 320 mg.
3. Anticonvulsant: 50 to 100 mg 2 to 3 times daily.
 
LSD is danger, to some a little quantity of LSD was retained somewhere in the spine, and..after 1-2 weeks they have stong hallucination without to take LSD. I red this.

Lsd flashbacks have actually been discredited for the most part(ref) and its persistence in spinal fluid is also a myth (the half life of LSD in the body is ~3 hours, ref)

LSD is currently being investigated for its use in major depression(ref) and has had positive results in treating anxiety involved with terminal illnesses(ref).

"There were no significant associations between lifetime use of any psychedelics, or use of LSD in the past year, and increased rate of any of the mental health outcomes," Pål-Ørjan Johansen and Teri Krebs from the Norwegian University of Science and Technology in Trondheim concluded in their study published in the PLOS One journal on Tuesday.

"Rather, in several cases psychedelic use was associated with a lower rate of mental health problems."

LSD induced penile mutilation is also not very common. It's happened a grand total of once in recorded history, which is statistically insignificant, given the tens of thousands or more doses taken by every user since its discovery in 1943.

Please note that I'm not advocating you should just go wild and eat 10 tabs with no planning, rather I suggest you find someone who can act as a guide for the experience and a suitable safe environment to do it in.

Also, ketamine therapy for depression may be something else to look into.

i think what you really need is some catalyst to enact change in your life. I somehow doubt your life and routine are totally perfect if you have severe depression that responds to nothing. It may be the case that you don't need to change but your environment does instead. No man is an island, and all that.
 
My doc told me about ketamine but to us in country i have no posibilty to try that.
I red tha ppl who tried this, had hallucinations, was very bad until ketamine had effect for depression, if had !! Because is possible that ketamine doesn`t work.
 
Ketamine is an interesting option but as you said availability can be limited. Psychedelics are definitely something to consider if you have tried a series of traditional treatments.

Dopaminergic treatments can be slightly strange for some people, with high variability. (Really almost all treatments have high variability.) I don't believe we are at any level of understanding in psychopharmacology to give a clear, definitive, answer why a treatment does or does not work, if or when it does, over time.

Specifically with pramipexole I had a friend with depression and RLS who when she was more depressed, started getting dysphoric with the pramipexole. You sometimes see it with stimulants as well, sometimes at different periods they seem to shift. Same kind of thing with a bipolar friend who starts getting that kind of perseverative, borderline psychotic depressive thinking that gets much worse with dopaminergic stimulants, even though she does fine 90% of the time. Some balance of dopaminergic transmission (D1 vs. D2 vs. D3, co-receptors) with other monoaminergic systems, glutamate/GABA, circuits and levels we can't say yet. She does better with antipsychotics like aripiprazole actually, partial agonism and all that, but AAPs can be tricky.

Is this pramipexole augmentation of citalopram or some other agent? I might suggest working with a psych or your doctor to really maximize other agents if the pramipexole is not working. Just because something is used off label and may help some, doesn't mean it will help you or that you are somehow not right because it doesn't help. Sometimes things don't mesh with people- whatever theoretical reason for using it may not match up with reality. It can be a sign to move on if you have given the full weeks/months of a consistent trial.

I am sorry to hear that you have suicidal thoughts and have made actions considering so. I would recommend hospitalization if things are out of control but it is good that you don't want to commit suicide. There is a lot in life, even if we can't see it in depression, and going that route would end possibilities. You are certainly right to fear methods not working. I have heard and seen some horror stories from others and at quite a few hospitals. There is room to change and things can improve, in time.

Non-pharmacological treatments, therapies, can be helpful, in place of or in conjunction with medication. Behavioral activation and routine changes can help even at severe levels in hospitalization. Small, realistic, short-term goals, even 'silly' ones. rTMS and ECT are around in some places as well, but as you said, availability is an issue.

I had prominent sulci and CSF space abnormalities on some MRIs (reason for scan seizure likely from intentional medication overdose) but diagnostic abnormalities aren't consistent for many mental disorders and certainly not a useful marker for treatment as of yet. There are possible changes but they don't 100% determine your reality and future.

I would encourage speaking up about changing the treatments and getting a more comprehensive picture. If you have been on a lot of drugs, MAOIs are an option. If you have been on MAOIs, trying different agents can be good. I did better on vortioxetine than I did on parnate, although parnate did break part of my depression. I've found memantine helpful but I can't recommend it with any confidence due to worse studies than ketamine. Mirtazapine as well in combination.

Best of luck- hopefully you have some good change. I hope to give encouragement. There is a lot out there. Be careful with substance use.
 
I tried Vortioxetine but I can`t buy because i don`t find, in my country is not, someone brought me from Gemany, but from 2016 it exists not there.

IMAO i tryed Tranycylpromine but nothing.
Moclobemide too (it is a RIMA), same.

Today i was to doc and he gave me Euthyrox 25 ug/day. He says that can help, even all my tyroid values are okey ! I didn`t know this, i heared that only when tyroid values are low, cand appear depression.
One month 25, and when no effect, 50 second month.
I don`t hope to much, but I try.
What is your opinion about Euthyrox for depresion ?!
Perhaps...can help me to los weight too ?! HiHi, also...a little heart acceleration..more oxygen = more burnings.
When tyroid is boosted, this is happening, or ? Because that, the ppl with hypertiroidism lose weight !

With suicide, is very clear that life is beatiful ! I know that i feel that is not so, because depression, depression changes the perception, I am wondering that others don`t realise that, and comite suicide for nothing ! Because that i fight that my depression goes away, also because that I don`t comite suicide.
When...all treatments are tested, and no work, then can i make this, because to live only for suffering, is no motivation for me, but until now. not all possibilityes are gone.
And..when someone want make this..., also must have beatifull mind to know how to do it corectly ! MUCH ppl don`t know this (they have no real reasons, but this is another thing).
The only real reasons are when physical illnes exists and you cand`t support it, cancer and others which make you to suffer and no chance to be good.
When a irreversible depression or other illnes exists (afler all treatments are tryed), which took the entire life day and night for ever.
 
If your thyroid hormone levels are low, then yes that can cause depression and lethargy, I assume your doctor measured your thyroid levels and they're low, otherwise taking euthyrox will produce hyperthyroidism where you have too much and your metabolism goes into overdrive and you'll lose a bunch of weight and that's bad too.
 
Yeah, availability is tough for vortioxetine and it is a weird drug anyway.

Thyroid hormone augmentation is definitely still a viable option even if you are euthyroid/ have normal thyroid levels, though it does come with definite risks. Usually they see if there are signs matching hypothyroidism rather than empirically starting it. Where I was at an outpatient partial hospitalization there was a woman who completely responded to thyroid hormone when she struggled with other treatments. I can't say for long-term but that's just an anecdote anyways.

However, thyroid hormone treatment has its problems and has to be monitored. 'Weight-loss' clinics and some 'holistic' practitioners have gotten into trouble for mis-prescribing thyroid hormone. Let alone actual patient harms (cardiac events, etc...) from thyroid treatment. Certainly still a viable treatment / augmentation if you have tried many other routes.

(I realize the link below won't work for people due to access but I thought to add it in anyway.)


 
I had treatment with Pramipexole for depression, but it did oposite than normal.
Also anxiety very intense, increased apetite, sex is going complet down, also more bad than before, black thinking !
I took from 0,18 mg/day and after one week i took more until 1,8 mg/day, when the dose was biger, so the effects were more bad.
I took 2 months.

After 2 months when I stoped, after 3 pause days so a little joy for play games appeared.

Why was so ? I did a mistake ? I must take littler than 0,09-0,18 mg ?! Or ?

Pramipexole is a dopamine receptor agonist. It's effect on depression is probably very minor if any at all. Dopamine receptor agonists are arguably the harshest of all Parkinsonian drugs. They can cause all sorts of problems such as severe tardive dyskenisia and crazy variations in BP, to auto-immune diseases like fibrosis and neuroleptic malignant syndrome-like symptoms upon discontinuation. You shouldn't take this shit unless you have severe late-stage Parksinson's. Most neurologists won't prescribe this to you until your Parksison's is so bad that levodopa and MAO and COMT inhibitors are no longer working. Using this shit as a "nootropic" is insane. Usiing potent pharmaceuticals that affect the CNS for "life enhacement" reasons is an absolute recipe for disaster unless you have a PhD in either neurology or biochemistry. You WILL do something stupid eventually and cause serious harm to yourself. I was reading the other day about a guy that was popping rasagiline tabs several times a day because he liked the buzz, until one day he used a common eye drop product containing a sympathomimetic amine, his systolic blood presssure went to over 200 and he had several ischemic strokes. He is now semi-demented on a wheel chair. There is a reason why guys go to university for 6 years and then another 2 years od medical residency in order to prescribe medication: because you can literally die from using the wrong amount of the wrong combinations of drugs. These drugs are not toys. Pharmaceutical drugs for the treatment of serious illness are designed to be incredibly potent and to deeply penetrate the tissues of the body to exert their effects. They were never meant to be used for trivial reasons, much less by laymen that don't know what the fuck they are doing.

If you want more energy and motivation, the best way to do that is by eating a diet that is as light as possible. A lot of our energy is wasted on digestion of food. This is why you feel sleepy after eating a meal rich in fats and oils. In fact, just eliminating sugar from your diet completely does wonders for motivation, as too much sugar drives tryptophan into your brain will decreases synthesis of dopamine and other catecholamines. Likewise, not eating meat dramatically improves your mood as meat has too much branched-chain amino acids which compete for absorption with tyrosine, l-dopa, tryptophan and 5-HTP. You can also try supplemeting with tyrosine, although tyrosine is unlikely to increase brain catecholamine levels without an l-aminoacid-decarboxylase inhibitot like carbidopa being used. Supplement with the following:

- Benfotiamine(more fat solubale than regular thiamine, better absorption) - improves Krebb's cycle and utilization of glucose

- Pyridoxal-5-phosphate(active B6, better for utilization) - co-factor in catecholamine and indolamine synthesis.

- NAC(n-acetyl-cysteine) - improves glutathione sysnthesis, used as an antidote to NSAID pisoning. Increases catalase and SOD in brain, improves mood

- Docosohexaenoic acid - component of cellular membranes of neurons, almost no one gets enough from diet and the ability to convert alpha-linolenic acid into DHA is limited.

- Taurine - weak NMDA agonist, cellular membrane enhancer.

- Phosphatidylcholine - shows several ergogenic effects in both monkeys and humans

- Glycine - agonist of glycine receptor, indirect NMDA agonist and proven antidepressant. Glycine might be neurotoxic, but only in doses close to 100 grams for na average adult man.

If you follow my advice for 3 months and you still feel like shit, then you have clinical depression and should go see a doctor of psychitrist. They might prescribe na SSRI like citalopram or a SNRI like bupropion. But in any case, you shouldn't be using Parksinsonian drugs, which are very harsh with a lot of side effects and have a dubious effect on depression - they might help cocaine addicts, though.

-
 
When euthyrox can make me to lose kg is wonderfull, is not bad, i have 77 Kg to 1,7 metters, also is very welcomed this thing.
Because from depression I can`t make sport and diet, I et so 3270 Kcal/day also I took 11 Kg in 170 days.
WOW, to burn 4000 Kcal or more, is very interesting ! I like this things, I like that the organism does what I want, not what he wants !!!
When the doc said that 50 ug Euthy cand help to my depression, alltrough my tyroid values are normal, that means that he knows something.

A provocation is NOT to eat little kcal, also to eat more and to not gain weight !! This is interesting.
I am wondering that te ppl make what the organism wants ! I consider that a humility.
50 ug euthy/day cand produce hypertiroidism ?!

Roxford, but some docs say that when prami stimulate the dopamine postsynaptic receptors, can come motivation, desire and other things, why not ?!
Is to like DRI, dopamine reuptake inhibitors !
When more dopamine is in the synapse, is not same like what a agonist does ?! More dopamine stimulates much the receptors, agonists stimulate the receptors like more dopamine, or ?!
 
What I want to know is what governs what dopaminergic tract a dopaminergic substance works on, of the 3/4.
 
Roxford, but some docs say that when prami stimulate the dopamine postsynaptic receptors, can come motivation, desire and other things, why not ?!
Is to like DRI, dopamine reuptake inhibitors !
When more dopamine is in the synapse, is not same like what a agonist does ?! More dopamine stimulates much the receptors, agonists stimulate the receptors like more dopamine, or ?!

Dopamine receptor agonists stimulate your D2 receptors much more potently than your natural dopamine does. If you want more dopamine, you could try MAO-B inhibitors like selegiline or rasagiline, or COMT inhibitors like tolcapone. I say tolcapone because entecapone does not cross the blood-brain barrier very effectively, even though it is much less toxic to the liver than tolcapone. However, Parkinsonian drugs should be taken under the supervision of an expert doctor that has a lot of experience working with them. These are not toys. Unlike things like SSRIs, which are mostly safe with few side effects, Parkisonian drugs are very harsh with lots of side effects and a lot of drug interactions. You could also take methylphenidate, which is a potent dopamine reuptake inhibitor and has less side effects than Parksinsonian drugs. Problem is, because it causes dopamine levels to go sky high and then drop once it wears off, there is a crash and MP is addictive. Parkinsonian drugs actually increase your dopamine stores, while MP actually depletes them by exposing more of your dopamine to MAOI at the synaptic gap. But you can try that. There used to be long-acting dopamine reuptake inhibitors in the market like nomifensine and amineptine, but those were removed due to abuse - as you would expect from DRIs.
 
thought COMT was the only enzyme of the three (including also MAO-B and MAO-A) that exists in the synapse, if that. The latter two are exist in the presynaptic neuron and work on nt's after reuptake
 
Amineptine I can`t find, it was noradrenaline reuptake inhibitor like Methylphenidate, or only dopamine reuptake inhibitor.
Methyl make me fell worse because is noradrenaline reuptake inhibitor, i need only to dopamine. Selegiline I tryed, no effect.
A question, I want try Methylphenidate again, but how can i antagonise Noradrenaline so that i have only more dopamine ?!
Also on NA want that methyl doesn`t have efect.
With propanolol doesn`t work, carvedilol same.
Any ideea ?
 
Not gonna happen. Dopamine and NE are too structurally related nt's to not work exclusively...and more so dopamine metabolizes into NE.
 
Amineptine I can`t find, it was noradrenaline reuptake inhibitor like Methylphenidate, or only dopamine reuptake inhibitor.
Methyl make me fell worse because is noradrenaline reuptake inhibitor, i need only to dopamine. Selegiline I tryed, no effect.
A question, I want try Methylphenidate again, but how can i antagonise Noradrenaline so that i have only more dopamine ?!
Also on NA want that methyl doesn`t have efect.
With propanolol doesn`t work, carvedilol same.
Any ideea ?

You can have a chemical supply house synthesize amineptine for you. I won't give you instructions because I guess it is against forum rules.

You cannot have a pure dopamine reuptake inhibitor because the dopamine transporter and norepinephrine transporter have extremely close molecular structures, so drugs that act on one will always act on the other. All DRIs inhibit the reuptake of NE to some degree. And vice-versa. For instance, the selective Ne reuptake inhbitor reboxetine weakly inhiboits the reuptake of dopamine in the pre-frontal cortex since not only most dopamine is removed by the NE transporter there, but also because dopamine has such a smiliar catechol structure to norepinephrine that the NE transporter removes it from the synapsis as well - just not nearly as efficiently as the dopamine transporter.

My idea to you is to eliminate sugar and saturated fat from your diet, supplement with DHA, NAC and vitamin D and maybe tyrosine, and exercise intensely 3-4 times a week. That will sustainably raise your feelings of well-being more than messing with your brain chemistry with potent drugs. If that doesen't work stronly enough, then take a low dose of sustained-release methylphenidate. You can also try Parksinsonian drugs like selegiline and rasagiline, although potent synthetic MAOIs is really a bad idea unless you know what you are doing. There is also the option of a COMT inhibitor that crosses the blood-brain barrier like tolcapone, but this you should really only do under a doctor's supervision since tolcapone can kill you if you do not check your liver and heart function frequently. Parksinsonian drugs are no joke, and should not be treated as "lifestyle" drugs. Combining a MAO-B inhibitor that crosses the blood-brain barrier like rasagiline with a COMT inhibitor that also crosses the blood-brain barrier lke tolcapone can increase your central dopamine massively. But unless you have advanced Parkinson's disease and are doing this under the supervision of an expert doctor, this is a really bad idea. Combining multiple Parkinsonian drugs should only be done under the supervision of a neurologist that has many years of experience doing this. The potential for organ damage, severe malignant hypertension with heart and brain damage, hyperthermia, loss of control over body movements and psychosis is really high. It's crazy that people even consider this as an option for lifestyle reasons.
 
I have tried pramipexole, a D3 preferring dopamine agonist, without relevant effects. Interesting to read that stimulation and euphoria is mediated by D1. Just why do then antipsychotics which block D2, cancel the positive effects of stims and feel dysphoric?

If you lack drive and energy, bupropion (Wellbutrin, Elontril) might ne worth a try.

NMDA antagonists like Ketamine can be a godsend for treatment resistent depression, which from what you write, you might be suffering from.
Unfortunately as you say, its hard to get, even here where it is just a regular prescription substance, only a few clinics that are usually outbooked, offer it and for just a limited number of sessions.
Well, I dreamt of it to be readily available on some onion part of the net.
Also there is the close variant 2-Fluorodeschloroketamine which might be legal in your place and can be ordered online.

Other option is dextromethorphan, available OTC as cough remedy in many areas. Taken slightly above the recommended dose (150-300mg maybe, depending on your metabolism, recreational users take 2-3 times that dose and it's been around for ages, so pretty safe too) it becomes an NMDA antagonist exhibiting a similar rapid antidepressant effect.

The combination of bupropion and dextromethorphan is currently in trial against resistent depression too! Took it myself and can confirm that it's effective and pretty strong with just 150 and 100mg XR, relatively.

Iboga rootbark is a natural option that is able to work up the past, present and permanently treat depression and anxiety. It's, among other effects, a natural NMDA antagonist. Just that it comes with a pretty intensive trip. But some also report positive effects with microdosing, avoiding the trip.
 
Last edited:
I don`t eat saturated fats, no sugar, no fast carbohydrates (sugar, white bread, rice, potatoes, etc), only whole grain bread, I take L-tyrosine (but no effect on dopamine), this I do from years. Sport I make bicycle 4 hour per week, daily one hour home with 65 % from maximul permited pulse, also how the rule is. Didn`t help.

Roxford took today for example 10 mg Selegiline but nothyng goog happened, I had strong head ashe. Perhaps one day is nothing.
I will consider Tolcapone, methylphenidate didn`t work, i had only more anxiety.
 
I don`t eat saturated fats, no sugar, no fast carbohydrates (sugar, white bread, rice, potatoes, etc), only whole grain bread, I take L-tyrosine (but no effect on dopamine), this I do from years. Sport I make bicycle 4 hour per week, daily one hour home with 65 % from maximul permited pulse, also how the rule is. Didn`t help.

Roxford took today for example 10 mg Selegiline but nothyng goog happened, I had strong head ashe. Perhaps one day is nothing.
I will consider Tolcapone, methylphenidate didn`t work, i had only more anxiety.

Ok. You should not take selegiline without a doctor's supervision. Even though the risk for hypertension and especially serotonin syndrome are much lower than with the non-selective MAOIs, these risks still exist. Also, of course you won't get euphoria from taking a MAO-B inhibitor. Inhibiting the breakdown of dopamine by inhibiting the enzymes responsible for catabolyzing it increases dopamine slowly. This is not like taking a DRI, that causes a fast and dramatic increase in extracellular dopamine by stopping it from being pumped out from the synapsis. Also, selective MAO-B inhibitors are only modestly effective at boosting dopamine since dopamine is broken down equally by MAO-A and MAO-B. However, it does modestrly increase the accumulation of dopamine, and once PEA reaches a high level in the brain, it acts as a substrate for DAT and increases dopamine even more. But that takes 3-6 weeks. It will increase your dopamine levels, but not massively. This is why MAO-B inhibitors are used as monotherapy for mild Parkinson's, but are not effective for severe Parkinson's. For severe Parksinson's, MAO-B inhibitors are used an an adjunct to levodopa and COMT inhibitors like entecapone and tolcapone. If you want huge increases of dopamine from selegiline, forget about it. It will significantly increase your dopamine over time, but never to the degree of something like cocaine. However, used in combination with levodopa and/or COMT inhibitors, it will boost dopamine massively, comparable to low doses of DRI. But even then, it will take weeks. Nothing will increase your dopamine levels as potently and fast as DRIs like cocaine and methylphenidate, which is why dopamine reuptake inhibitors are so addictive, since the fast and dramatic rise in extracellular dopamine stimulates D2 receptors and triggers the release of endogenous opioids and endocanobinoids in the hedonic hotspots of the brain, giving the rush associated with the high. Nothing that builds up your dopamine stores and doesen't give you a crash will increase your dopamine as fast and dramatically as DRIs. This is why things like selegiline and tolcapone are not considered drugs of abuse. They can raise your dopamine a lot, but not fast enough to give you a high.

As for tyrosine, I suggested tyrosine just to make sure you are getting it. It is abundant in foods, but usually animal protein like eggs and meat, and not everyone gets enough of that. For instance, vegetarians and especially vegans have depressed plasma levels of both tyrosine and l-dopa, and would benefit the most from supplementation. If you eats lots of chicken breasts and eggs, you don't need tyrosine. Tyrosine does not increase central dopamine levels for two reasons. First, the amount of the enzyme, tyrosine hydroxylase, which converts tyrosine into l-dopa, is quite limited. Secondly, the enzyme l-aminoacid decarboxylase breaks down most of the l-dopa outside the brain before it can get there, It is impossible to increase dopamine in the brain by taking tyrosine because so little gets converted into l-dopa and the little that does is mostly broken down outside the brain. With l-dopa it is easier, but without taking a decarboxylase inhibitor like carbidopa, it is still very difficult because it will be mostly broken down before reaching the brain. It is easier to increase dopamine in the brain with l-dopa alone than with tyrosine alone, but still pretty difficult without carbidopa. But at least with l-dopa you have a chance provided you take a huge dose. The dose would need to be roughly 10 X greater than what you would take if you were using a decarboxylase inhibitor. Warning that this dose will produce severe dyskinesia.

My new advice to you is to keep taking the selegiline and be patient, as it will take at least 3 weeks for you to feel the effects. Also, instead of taking tyrosine you can try a Mucuna Pruriens extract which contains l-dopa. Again, without taking a decarboxylase inhibitor together with the l-dopa, it will be very diffcult for the l-dopa to reach your brain. But a small amount of it probably will, and that is better than nothing. You should also seek help from an expert neurologist since using drugs that potently inhibit enzymes in the body has the potential to be very dangerous. Guys go to medical school for 6 years to know what they are doing for a reason...because physiology and pharmacology are difficult, and mistakes can cost lives. Yes, I think insisting on the selegiline and taking a Mucuna Pruriens extract is your best bet. A better bet would be taking the selegiline with pharmaceutical-grade l-dopa and a decarboxylase inhitor. But again, this should be done under a doctor's supervision. Combining selegiline with tolcapone would be immediately even more powerful, but that is something that you should really only do under the supervision of an expert doctor. The potential for malignant hypertension, and severe damage to the heart and liver is great.
 
Last edited:
Tianeptine don`t work too.
I think I have the endorphin receptors damaged, when i took Suboxona or oxycontin, i was much better, anxiety low, mood up, but after a time I was worse, the anxiety was up, and next day I was very dark worse.
 
Top