The 2018 Trump Presidency thread

[invegauser]

i'm tired and look forward to engaging more with those here and you on this when i wake up.

for now i agree with much of what you say and of particular would like to address the fact that federal laws are umbrella laws in a sense. no matter what they are meant to be "adhered" to over individual state laws which can differ from state to state. i was raised and even taught sometimes the understanding that state laws are as you say, a reflection of the individual groups of people who decide to live in the same community or state, where as federal ones are ideals we all live by but can be separate from individual state laws and something got screwed up along the way. also that state laws can become federal ones given specific conditions and circumstances (aside from all the complaining we do today) there are ways this is possible. it is not necessarily stated plainly so in the paper work of government but it can be interpreted from it.

and this is where it lines up with what your saying about legalizing marijuana. if enough states legalize it (over half of them, that's at least 25 for those who use fingers and toes) then it's pretty dang hard for the federal government to enforce federal laws in that many states, let a lone overturn these laws and would be beneficial to entertain hearing the states and people out on accepting and implementing them as new federal laws. this is not to say it will happen, just that it could as one possibility. on the other hand the federal government could cut off federal funding and has other ways to keep the states in check but there are many things to consider and different possible outcomes that not all are or can be considered.

i unfortunately work with what was, what was intended and what currently is in order to come up with ideas to form a more better union in this country both today and for future generations. i like your views on seeing the states flex their muscles in this fashion and i like them doing it too. and yes, yest it is long over due.

 

[zephyr]

I don't want a love Trump thread, just some rational discourse and analysis of his Presidency. Tiger Woods just said it we should respect the office.
If we look at the economy and jobs then he is representing the interests of the common people. His support among African Americans has doubled in the past year. WHY??
What is with the seething hatred, honestly? Why exactly does Trump threaten so many people? Do people literally think he is going to start some genocide??

Good to see you back old mate.

 

[swilow]

Since the thread is about Trump's Presidency, you raise some good points. African American support has been growing. This is something I don't see liberals addressing - either as a fabrication (does that mean it is an irrefutable fact?), or to explain the 'why' behind it. Conservatives don't have to address it, they can just accept it and roll with it. But for all the anger on the left, I would expect some sort of response to his growing support with what has traditionally been a large segment of the Democratic party. Perhaps they don't wish to acknowledge that he is gaining popularity in this group, because it means they have to acknowledge they are losing support from this group?

Or you could argue that there is frustration that the Trump propaganda machine is working. Certainly, I can think of no real, concrete way that Trump has improved the lives of this constituency to explain this increase in support.

Or even if its happening. Remember the polls that said Trump wouldn't get elected? Has support from African Americans really increased? Is there any good reason why?

 

[JGrimez]

^Well, technically, JGrimez isn't American

I have an Aus & US passport so technically I'm an American. Not that it matters but I've had people tell me my opinion doesn't matter or ask me why I care so much about US domestic issues, based on my location. Which is ridiculous (and xenophobic/bigoted), as if only a person living in a country has valid opinions (some people have no idea what's going on in their own backyards).

Tiger Woods? Getting advice on politics from him is perhaps the best laugh I've had in days. Thank you. That was a knee slapper. (no sarcasm)

I wrote that half-jokingly but the Left these days get most of their political talking points from celebrities and talk show hosts. Why is Woods' opinion worth less than these stand-up comedians?
Woods actually gave a good answer to not be divisive or alienate half of his fanbase - he still got decimated for it by idiots like Max Kellerman. I couldn't believe ESPN were abusing Woods for not abusing the President. Whatever happened to respecting others opinions (or even just their desire to stay out of politics?)

The hatred also puzzles me a bit. I don't feel threatened by him, so I'm trying to understand what drives such an emotional reaction among so many folks. Particularly for the fact that when emotion takes over, reason recedes, in any situation. And this is really what I find interesting...the seething hatred is unlike anything I've seen before, but when peeled back for reason..??

I'd really like an answer to this from the people commenting in this thread. I don't think even Clinton (and her supporters) received anywhere near the same vitriol that Trump and his supporters do, and she arguably deserved it.

Good to see you back old mate.

Thank you, nice to see a friendly face !

Or you could argue that there is frustration that the Trump propaganda machine is working.

You have to be careful with that type of explanation, as you cannot risk labeling black people more susceptible to propaganda or having less critical thinking skills based on rising support for the President.
You're going to have to come up with a better explanation than that, hopefully based on policy and living standards. It's not easy for people to "come out" as Trump supporters, they often lose friends, family so it must be based on something substantial. Is it more jobs? Is it a bit more money in the pocket due to taxes? Disavowing the Left/Democrats? Trump supporters think they've woken up to the truth and that it's the Left that are propagandized. So accusing the other side of not being able to think properly gets nobody nowhere.

Certainly, I can think of no real, concrete way that Trump has improved the lives of this constituency to explain this increase in support.

Well it's all there. African-American unemployment is at its lowest levels ever recorded. I understand that the left give 100% credit to Obama's policies.
But what if black unemployment all of a sudden skyrocketed? Guaranteed they would blame Trump - and these double standards irk me.
I've asked this before, but how long does Trump need to be President before we can start crediting him for any positive changes or influence?
We might be looking at 6% GDP and the NASDAQ just hit 8,000 for the first time. Yes the system is shaky and this doesn't necessarily prove anything, but it's a good sign that gives people confidence. When the media was predicting all these horrible things if Trump got elected (tanking stocks, world war), and then they didn't happen, that was another knife into the media's credibility. They've cried wolf too many times for a lot of us - CNN's primetime ratings are now behind Home Garden TV, Food Channel and History (Ancient Aliens beats CNN). And it's because they blatantly lie so much, for eg. staging fake protests or falsifying reports by misusing anonymous sources.

Or even if its happening. Remember the polls that said Trump wouldn't get elected? Has support from African Americans really increased? Is there any good reason why?

Yes there are reasons but this is a good point. We saw how rigged the polling was from sources like the New York Times (Clinton 93% chance to win) and HuffPost (Clinton 98.1% to win), even Nate Silver gave Clinton a 75% chance to win on election night. However Rasmussen had the most accurate polls during the election so maybe look at someone like them today or others who were polling more accurately during the election.

 

[Cream Gravy?]

I think you misunderstood what I was saying.


Welcome back.

 

[JGrimez]

I think you misunderstood what I was saying.


Welcome back.

Thanks mate good to be back I missed everyone

 

[JGrimez]

2017 - the European Union fines Google $2.7 billion for bias in its search algorithms.

2018 - Media says Trump is a crazy conspiracy theorist for suggesting Google has bias search algorithms.

 

[alasdairm]

Tiger Woods just said it we should respect the office.

why should we when trump himself has disgraced the office of the president?

If we look at the economy and jobs then he is representing the interests of the common people.

lol. come on. you're being (deliberately?) obtuse?

the stock market is doing well - it's certainly continuing the excellent gains it made during obama's two terms. unemployment is also following the excellent downward trend we saw under obama. but wages? not so much.

Trump's Tax Cut Hasn't Done Anything for Workers
Trump has a $100 billion tax cut for the rich he wants to enact without Congress
Trump Administration Mulls a Unilateral Tax Cut for the Rich
'Not what we expected': Trump's tax bill is losing popularity

His support among African Americans has doubled in the past year. WHY??

sure he has gained some support among blacks but his disapproval rating there is still 85%. double not much is still not much.

What is with the seething hatred, honestly? Why exactly does Trump threaten so many people? Do people literally think he is going to start some genocide??

maybe it has nothing to do with genocide. that's clearly a large factor for you but other things are more important to others. i doubt people really want to bother answering you because you've asked for evidence of trump's racism in the past and, when people respond, you just reject it. why would this be any different?

alasdair

 

[aihfl]

Has support from African Americans really increased? Is there any good reason why?

African-American unemployment is at its lowest levels ever recorded.

Unemployment makes a convenient talking point, but the reality is a lot more nuanced. I live in a minority-majority area that's overwhelmingly African-American and Caribbean Islander. While the vast majority of them continue to vote Democratic, as a whole, they are heavily involved in their churches and many tend to be socially conservative. I also observed this when I lived in a majority Hispanic neighborhood 20 years ago where their devout Catholicism and (at least among certain segments of the Hispanic population) fealty to the Democratic Party would seem to be at odds. This could explain why Barack Obama overwhelmingly won California in 2008, yet at the same time, voters passed Proposition 8, banning gay marriage (later overturned by the courts).

 

[JGrimez]

why should we when trump himself has disgraced the office of the president?

By doing what? It's not like he's messing around with floozies in the Oval Office like a certain someone's husband.

the stock market is doing well - it's certainly continuing the excellent gains it made during obama's two terms. unemployment is also following the excellent downward trend we saw under obama. but wages? not so much.

What if Obama did nothing and the economy would have rebounded anyway? When do we start crediting Trump for:

NASDAQ passed 8000 for the first time ever.
GDP growth is on track to reach 4.6%
Ratio of unemployed vs jobs available is lowest in 5 decades.
US in in the longest Bull Market ever.
The DOW has broken over 80 records

his disapproval rating there is still 85%. double not much is still not much.

Which poll? What does Rasmussen poll say (most accurate)?

maybe it has nothing to do with genocide. that's clearly a large factor for you but other things are more important to others. i doubt people really want to bother answering you because you've asked for evidence of trump's racism in the past and, when people respond, you just reject it. why would this be any different?

No, I'm being serious here. We've gone over the racism thing a few times in great detail. He hasn't actually done or said anything racist IMO. Maybe we have different definitions. What about when he fought in court decades ago in FL to allow blacks and jews to join whites-only golf clubs? Why don't we hear about all the actions of his that prove he isn't racist?
I don't want to play whataboutism but Hillary called black youth "super predators" and helped pass anti-crime legislation in the 90s that destroyed countless black families. I would call that saying and doing something racist. So how many people hate Trump for being racist yet voted for Clinton? And is the reason for all the seething hatred based on just the loose accusations of racism? What's his face Bill Maher recently called himself "a house n***a". Imagine if Trump had done that. Nobody even called for Maher to lose his show.

Anyway I am interested in knowing why people feel threatened by Trump. They're happily willing to ignore subversions of the law to remove him. Why is he such a threat?

 

[JGrimez]

(This is from the McCain thread but more on-topic here)

Do you respect trump in light of his treasonous dalliances with dictators like putin, kim jong un, duterte?
Would you respect him if the sexual assaults he boasts about were proven?
What about the rapes he's been accused of?

If it was proven rape I'd definitely lose respect for him. I hope those aren't true and I don't think that they are (or he would've gone down for them a long time ago)
He boasts about being incredibly attractive to women due to his status.
The worst it seems he's done is cheat on his wife and pay off a pornstar.
Adultery in the military is illegal but this was before he was a politician.
I don't condone that behavior but I can't say it explicitly disqualifies him from being a good President (JFK anyone?)

The pol pot/hitler comment is silly mate.

Yes praising warmongers just because they died is silly.

I've seen the content you post and the sources you think are credible - and frankly it's the sort of "fake news" trump rants about in his broken english...

So why do they keep being proven correct? The FISA abuse, corruption in the FBI, the wiretapping etc

Anyway, this was published 31/08/2018;
Donald Trump's approval rating sinks to lowest of his presidency

This is where Trump wins on credibility.
The day before the election, these sources had the chances of Clinton winning at:
99% - Princeton Election Consortium
98% - Huffingtong Post
92% - Daily KOS
91% - CNN
89% - PredictWise
85% - New York Times
72% - Five Thirty Eight

Rasmussen had accurate polling during the election and they just came out with 48% approval for Trump

?@Rasmussen_Poll just came out at 48% approval rate despite the constant and intense Fake News,? Trump tweeted. ?Higher than Election Day and higher than President Obama. Rasmussen was one of the most accurate Election Day polls!?

https://dailycaller.com/2018/08/31/president-trump-presidential-approval-polling/

So how is "fake news" more accurate than real news?

 

[cduggles]

like a certain someone's husband.

You really hate her, don't you? :D

And you don't know what Trump does where. He could be just as bad as President Clinton in the Oval Office. Or worse. And who wants to picture that? #shudder

We've gone over the racism thing a few times in great detail.

Yes I have.

I don't want to play whataboutism...

What about...?

What if Obama...

Which poll?

Hillary

It's getting harder to defend Trump. Stick with your ground game and be proud.

Nobody even called for Maher to lose his show.

Wrong. Some called for his firing.

Why is he such a threat?

Because he's in waaaaay over his head and surrounding himself with sycophants.

Thank God for midterm elections and subpoena power of the House of Representatives. And Mueller.

Adultery in the military is illegal but this was before he was a politician.

Trump has never served in the military. That was military school.

The CINC is a civilian. It's why the DOJ is tearing Trump's life apart.

I don't condone that behavior...

Actually, yes you do.

...

but I can't say it explicitly disqualifies him from being a good President (JFK anyone?)

Adultery does not make people equal in other respects. 8)

So why do they keep being proven correct? The FISA abuse, corruption in the FBI, the wiretapping etc

Give it up already with FISA process, and the "wiretapp" :D. Remember the pptape? That was a great thread.
FISA explained:
http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads...sa-Warrent?p=14243144&viewfull=1#post14243144

 

[JGrimez]

You really hate her, don't you? :D

Her husband was the President and he was messing around with cigars and interns in the Oval Office.
Personally I'd say that is disrespecting the office.
Also imagine if Trump put his feet on the desk like Obama did.

And you don't know what Trump does where. He could be just as bad as President Clinton in the Oval Office. Or worse. And who wants to picture that? #shudder

He could be a Reptilian shapeshifter.
What do we actually know and can prove

Wrong. Some called for his firing.

Do you agree that what he said was racist though? What did Trump say that's more racist than that?
And what was Maher's punishment?
Do the Left now hate Maher as much as or more than Trump because they abhor racism?

Actually, yes you do.

I just said that I didn't. And I wouldn't personally engage in that behavior.

Give it up already with FISA process, and the "wiretapp" :D. Remember the pptape? That was a great thread.

We will not be giving this up, I've been following it quite closely and it will be part of the undoing of everyone involved.
It's actual Russian collusion, ironically.

"No information was ever given by the Trump Team to Russia, yet the Hillary Clinton campaign paid for information from Kremlin sources and just washed it through an intermediary, Christopher Steele."

The double standards and denial of facts are mind-boggling.

"You have a Fake Dossier, gathered by Steele, paid by the Clinton team to get information on Trump. The Dossier is Fake, nothing in it has been verified. It then filters into our American court system in order to spy on Barrack Obama and Hillary Clinton's political opponent Donald Trump, and now we find out that there wasn't even a hearing - that Donald Trump's 4th Amendment right to privacy was signed away...and someone in there is swearing that this stuff is true, when it wasn't? This is the scandal here - a police state."

Report: There were no FISA hearings held over Spy documents."It is astonishing that the FISA courts couldn't hold hearings on Spy Warrants targeting Donald Trump. It isn't about Carter Page, it?s about the Trump Campaign. You've got corruption at the DOJ & FBI. The leadership of the DOJ & FBI are completely out to lunch in terms of exposing and holding those accountable who are responsible for that corruption."

 

[cduggles]

This is a bit inside baseball for CE&P, but it's definitely politics.

I've always enjoyed operatives and the way they see things. Obviously this guy knows he's being interviewed, but he's also looking at the GOP's future, near- and longer- term. And operatives use colorful language. "But like all cults, it'll end badly.:D

Can the Republican Party survive Donald Trump?

(CNN)Mike Murphy has long been on the "A" list of the Republican consulting world, having served as a lead adviser to Mitt Romney and Jeb Bush, among many others. Since the rise of President Donald Trump, he has emerged as a leading voice within the party against Trump.

Murphy told The Washington Post this weekend that his party and its leaders were displaying "moral cowardice" in their refusal to face down Trump over his weaponizing of race, gender and ethnicity. I reached out to Murphy to get him to explain more of that notion and to find out where he thinks the party will go in a post-Trump era.

Our conversation, conducted via email and lightly edited for flow, is below.

Cillizza: Over the weekend, you condemned the "larger moral cowardice that has overtaken the party" in the era of Trump. Expand on that idea.

Murphy: It's one thing to accept the normal array of slippery political cheats and dodges in the name of tribal party loyalty with the usual tired rationalization that the "other side is always worse," but Trump's activities are so corrupt and corrosive as to elevate the problem way beyond cynical politics.

Trump's actions as President have created a clear moral test: Are you complicit or are you against? Trump has gone so far -- racial demagoguery and slurs, abuse of office, dictator appeasement, nepotism and family corruption, blazing incompetence, contempt for the rule of law, betrayal of public institutions, epic dishonesty, authoritarian thuggishness... the list never ends -- that he is damaging public institutions and debasing the Presidency of the United States.

You either have the courage to oppose that, regardless of blind party loyalty, or you don't. And the bulk of our party's elected leaders are showing moral indifference and cowardice about Trump. It's tragic and sad and makes of mockery of the legitimate criticism the GOP used to level at erring Democrats. It's a stain on the party that sadly will now last.

Cillizza: How different do GOP lawmakers -- and governors, etc. -- talk about Trump privately versus publicly? And if it's different, is that delta entirely explained by fear of losing?

Murphy: I don't talk to all of them, but there is widespread contempt. They think he is vain and stupid. But many say they are powerless to change his behavior. The thinking goes: "If I publicly criticize him he won't change one bit, but I'll lose my seat in a primary to a nut and the nut will give the seat to vile socialists on the other side, who are no better than Trump in many ways. Plus we cannot let the liberal Republican-hating media 'win.' So I keep quiet while we rack up important ideological victories -- judges, regulatory reform, taxes -- and wait for this dark storm to pass."

It's a rationalization I understand, but it gives Trump a moral pass as he ethically urinates all over the institution of the presidency and (the idea of rule of law.) My response is usually that if 100 of you stood up, he would change. They reply, "Perhaps... so call me when you get the first 25 signed up and I'll think then about joining you."

Cillizza: Is there any real Republican Party aside from Trump at this point? If so, what does it look like -- and why don't we hear more about it?

Murphy: It's pretty much a Trump cult in the GOP primary electorate, particularly outside the blue states of the Northeast. He's very strong in the sunbelt, Midwest and West. But like all cults, it'll end badly. Somehow the GOP campaign mindset has gotten aligned to this stupid idea that the general election is essentially nothing more than a big GOP primary, and that primary voters are swing voters who need to be constantly sucked-up-to, while ignoring everybody else. We'll see how that works out on Election Day outside of hardcore Republican areas.

Cillizza: Let's say Trump loses in 2020. What -- if any -- is the lasting damage the Republican Party will have sustained from his presidency and the way the party reacted to it? Does that change if he is a two-term president?

Murphy: I think the bigger question is what happens if we lose the House -- and more -- in the 2018 midterms. If it does happen, such a meltdown will shake the party badly -- no political party endures a major loss without repercussions -- and Trump, the supreme magical winner of 2016, will become an epic party-killing loser. (My guess is Trump will compound this by attacking the party for its loss, since nothing can ever be his fault.)

At that point the idea of running in 2020 under Trump will look like a march to the guillotine, particularly for the GOP Senate majority. That's when Trump will find himself on the sharp end of the same kind of cynical self-preservation thinking that he's benefited from to date. Nobody in the family stands up to Tony Soprano until they stop making money and start going to prison. Then it's time for change. Tony is the last to know.

Still, if we hang on to the House by two votes, it'll read in the expectations bazaar as a big Trump comeback win and he'll probably be the nominee. Then we'll be near-certain to lose big 2020. It'll be our McGovern '72 and out of that rubble the 2023-4 GOP primary race will redefine the party, hopefully back to opportunity conservatism.

(One crazy prediction: if Trump does hang on, I predict he'll start talking about dumping Mike Pence as VP. Such a story would create irresistible drama for the reality show producer POTUS. Next year, after the media gives over-implied but loud credit to female voters for any Democratic gains in 2020, White House press leaks will start to appear indicating that while Trump likes good old Pence, he wants to shake things up and after a flurry of hysterical who's next drama in the media with various names bouncing around, Trump will eventually float the name of Nikki Haley. The media will buy it hook, line and sinker: "A clever Trump master-stroke to get back female and minority voters, blah, blah, blah." That move will also allow Trump to plunge a satisfying Shakespearean dagger of revenge into Pence, whose own future presidential maneuverings are a bit too transparent for the insecure Trump. Team Pence really needs to read a few Stalin biographies.)

Cillizza: Finish this sentence: "The Republican Party needs to be _____________ in order to survive." Now, explain.

Murphy: "The Republican Party needs to be freed of Donald Trump and Trumpism in order to survive."

It's no small thing that Donald Trump lost the popular vote by millions. He stumbled to a lucky lock-pick win in the Electoral College, but the popular vote -- and all the current polling -- shows he decided to pick a fight to the death with the fast-growing segments of the electorate. Only true suckers fight demography.

His election was a dead-cat bounce and is extremely unlikely to be repeated. I'm not sure he'll survive his first term, but if he does and can win re-nomination, he'll find a re-elect very daunting. The demography is worse and getting even more difficult every day, the novelty is gone, incompetence is always punished in the fullness of time and the staff machine that exists to prop up an existing POTUS is a weak shambles of dregs and enablers.

Ideologically, Trump has cashiered the Republican Party's longstanding equity as a force for free trade, fiscal conservatism, tough foreign policy and hard-headed competence. Trump now provides political fuel and success only to those who would destroy the conservative movement. He's driven the GOP into a moral and political ditch, which will likely in time put the county on the left's road to serfdom at least through the next political cycle. The GOP went on a wild, stupid bender with Trump and now the hangover will be very painful.

Source

 

[JGrimez]

Can the Republican Party survive Donald Trump?

Mr. Trump’s approval rating among Republicans is now about 90 percent.

 

[cduggles]

^ Trump is not the GOP.

Information about that schism is located below the title of the article. In the text.

And this,

Originally Posted by Dan Bongino USSS
Report: There were no FISA hearings held over Spy documents."It is astonishing that the FISA courts couldn't hold hearings on Spy Warrants targeting Donald Trump. It isn't about Carter Page, it?s about the Trump Campaign. You've got corruption at the DOJ & FBI. The leadership of the DOJ & FBI are completely out to lunch in terms of exposing and holding those accountable who are responsible for that corruption."

is a retweet from Trump. About an alleged report that allegedly states something from a conservative think tank. Maybe you could look at the original report? Derp.

As for the rest of your reply, okay. Keep tilting at those wacky windmills. :D

 

[swilow]

The day before the election, these sources had the chances of Clinton winning at:
99% - Princeton Election Consortium
98% - Huffingtong Post
92% - Daily KOS
91% - CNN
89% - PredictWise
85% - New York Times
72% - Five Thirty Eight

Mr. Trump’s approval rating among Republicans is now about 90 percent.

Confirmation bias? It seems you only accept polling that plays into your own line of thinking.

 

[alasdairm]

It's one thing to accept the normal array of slippery political cheats and dodges in the name of tribal party loyalty with the usual tired rationalization that the "other side is always worse," but Trump's activities are so corrupt and corrosive as to elevate the problem way beyond cynical politics.

amen.

the bold part sounds awful familiar...

on the trump racism claim his comments about judge curiel are all you need to know. the very definition of racism.

alasdair

 

[aihfl]

Mr. Trump’s approval rating among Republicans is now about 90 percent.

Whooptee freaking doo. What matters is what the what the non-shrill, non-hyperpartisans think, and right now Trump's approval rating is cratering again, around 40%. For a point of comparison, that's about how many people disapprove of, say, Bernie Sanders. But it's all fake news, right?

 

[Captain.Heroin]

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-investigations_us_5b85861de4b0511db3d229d7

It’s Not Just Robert Mueller. President Donald Trump Faces Six Separate Investigations And Lawsuits.
Prosecutors are digging into the president’s business from which he refused to divest.