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ANTIFA attacks peaceful right wing protestors in Berkeley CA.

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While we have seen a rise of fascism in some places, its a relatively powerless force; and this is not because antifa protests militant action have scared them away. The reality is that the majority in the various communities of western democratic communities simply do not support fascism. And, from what I can tell, it is largely because fascism is seen as a doctrine that can only be introduced using force, not because it has racist or nationalistic overtones.

The thing that annoys me about all of this is that it's too easy to fall back on definitions and terms of political theory, of political scales, and say "there's the problem over there!" based upon previous history. It's too easy to get caught up with these definitions and terms, as we can see with Antifa who seem to specifically want to go after white racists or supremacists, because they seem to believe that is the only possible source from which fascism (or racism) can arise - only white people are capable of such evils.

Fascism doesn't have to be so rigidly defined - fascistic behavior can be seen stewing in many places.. hence my question on Islamic extremism and why the anti-fascists are just silent on that issue, and why in the UK they go after groups like the EDL who have ZERO chance of becoming a political force given they are not wanting it in the first place. Why protest against the EDL, a street movement of pissed off working class folk, and instead give implied support for the Islamic extremists who actually have the far greater chance of implementing a system of governance that would be antithetical to all the values we hold dear in Western society? It makes no sense if you're opposed to fascism in all its manifestations, but then that's the issue with Antifa and the anti-fascist crowd.. too confined to what they think the definition of fascism ought to be. That and they don't have the balls to stand up the Islamic crowd who are genuinely dangerous people.

The irony of the far-left groups is that they claim to oppose racism but they themselves are predominantly white people caught up in white political theory of left vs right, love vs hate or whatever, and are overlooking elephants in the room because they're too busy playing their stupid childish political games. They're so busy focusing on white racists or supremacists who are totally insignificant and will never achieve any sort of momentum that they're missing the real creeping threats that are sidestepping around them. I can see three systems of political current that could potentially manifest into something dangerous in the Western sphere: One is the creeping Islamic threat, with its core of nutters surrounded by legions of "nice" religious followers who may inadvertently allow political power to settle their with increased demographic potency, another is the cynical alliance between liberal society and the corporate state (modern society as it stands) in many western countries, and the final one is the European Union which is ironic given that it supposedly exists to prevent that sort of thing happening. The anti-fascists crowd generally speaking has no problem with Islam (because it can't be seen to be racist), no problem with liberal bigotry because they themselves are largely liberal bigots, and no problem with the idea of EU supranational governance because they hate the idea of nation states and self-determination.. because of course we all know there's a link between that and Nazism.
 
This is the last word I'm going to have on this matter but German complacency --> Nazi Government --> a disastrous war that decimated the populations of Central and Eastern Europe, especially the 20 million plus Soviet deaths and the Holocaust. If you can't think it can happen again, that's when it's going to happen.

I didn't say it can't happen again. I said I believe these "antifa" tactics represent as real a threat to free society as the fascists they claim to oppose. Not the same thing.

I think people like you are complacent in assuming that undermining free speech by depriving it to those who's words you don't like won't make it all the easier to eliminate more speech deemed undesirable.

Today it's these guys, but you can stretch these arguments to cover a lot more.

All conservative or right wing beliefs could become more radical which could lead to nationalism which could lead to naziism.

I don't want to live in a society where my free speech is suppressed because of such a vague assumption on what it "might" lead too.

I can see it happening, with things I believe in even. Free speech must be absolute. You can disagree but I won't compromise on it. Until you can prove to me to my satisfaction that society can not have true free speech without it inevitably leading to a worse outcome than some better system, I'll support it no matter what it's used for.

So maybe in another 500 years or so we might have a better idea if free speech can work without inevitably leading to destruction. But I'd say for my lifetime I can't see how anything could ever change my mind on this one.

I believe in absolute free speech. It is one of the most fundamental parts of my belief system. So I expect for the rest of my life I'll do whatever I can to ensure you always have the right to naively advocate in words that it be undermined by stripping it from people you disagree with. And that your words are as far as it ever gets to reality.
 
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This is the last word I'm going to have on this matter but German complacency --> Nazi Government --> a disastrous war that decimated the populations of Central and Eastern Europe, especially the 20 million plus Soviet deaths and the Holocaust. If you can't think it can happen again, that's when it's going to happen.

As I suggested in my last post we'll all be too busy looking in one direction, thinking its going to manifest itself in the same way it did last time in Germany and completely miss it springing up around us from other sources. History can repeat itself but that doesn't mean it's going to follow the same identical formula it did before. Hatred and blind murderous lust are not confined to particular groups of people or political persuasions, they are tolerant and diverse impulses that don't discriminate from where or whom they arise in.

Wholeheartedly agree with JessFR. Free speech must be protected at all costs, it is too precious and one of the few tools we have as humans to prevent organized power from succumbing to the darker impulses of the mind. I disagree with what the white supremacists say as much as I disagree with what far-left comes out with, as much as I disagree with what the Islamic extremists come out with, but at the end of the day the only way you drive out the darker impulses is by confrontation through direct questioning and criticism.
 
All I meant before her 2A ACLU exegesis gave me a concussion, is that we need to stop SS before he--I mean fascists are bad. Nothing to do with free speech. I also advocate confronting proto-Nazis with direct questions and harsh criticism, including of outfit, especially khaki shorts cause goddammit that's all I've got. I can't wear blue jeans all summer.

It is still summer till about mid Dec.
 
This is the last word I'm going to have on this matter but German complacency --> Nazi Government --> a disastrous war that decimated the populations of Central and Eastern Europe, especially the 20 million plus Soviet deaths and the Holocaust. If you can't think it can happen again, that's when it's going to happen.

Have you even ever studied German, and Russian/Eastern European history-including modern day history? Or traveled to either Russia or Germany? Or do you know anything about modern day political parties/politics in both countries?

Extreme far right fascist sympathizers, neo-nazis, or people who lean that way politically are an extreme minority in both Europe and North America.

The Holocaust is never going to happen again. In both Germany and Russia people know all about the Nazi Holocaust, and Lenin with his acts of mass killings and prison camps, and Stalin and his GULAG prison camps, and how it will NOT be repeated ever.
 
You mention "history", then bring up stalin and lenin, which has nothing to do with this topic whatsoever.

Not a single mention of a nazis though. Do you agree with the nazis, priest? Serious question.
You seem happy to dismiss the entire topic of nazi violence, whilst being blase about the idea of the holocaust.
 
Take it to stormfront, SS.
This has nothing to do with communism or islamic extremism - that's just obfuscation for nazi apologists.
Don't derail the thread please.
 
You mention "history", then bring up stalin and lenin, which has nothing to do with this topic whatsoever.

Not a single mention of a nazis though. Do you agree with the nazis, priest? Serious question.
You seem happy to dismiss the entire topic of nazi violence, whilst being blase about the idea of the holocaust.

Stalin has to do with WWII and Nazism, and both Hitler and Stalin have a lot in common with each other. Hitler also has things in common with Lenin, and other Communist/Socialist dictators throughout history that are in different countries. Despite the Marxist/Socialist rewriting of Soviet/Russian history, Lenin was extremely Anti-Semetic as well.

This is basic history though, doesn't anyone actually know this, or study it? 8)

I am not being dismissive about Nazis or being blase about the Holocaust. I do not agree with Nazis, or fascists, etc. Someone can be against ANTIFA and other extreme far left groups but yet still be just as against Nazis, fascism, etc.

Just like how Hitler and Stalin have a lot in common, both ANTIFA and the Neo-Nazis have a lot in common. Both groups are for censoring history, promote or are violent towards others they do not like or agree with, both are hate/terrorist groups, and both are just as crazy and extreme as the other.
 
How are antifa "censoring history"?
I get the feeling you don't know anything about anti-fascism, if you believe that.
Thw whole concept of anti-fascist action is extremely focused on history.
Ever heard of the 43 Group?
Or the "Battle of Cable Street"?

Antifascist roots go back over the last hundred-odd years - but "antifa" as we now know it arose out of community resistance to neo-nazi skinhead (bonehead) groups in Paris in the early 1980s. Those nazis killed and bashed people - especially ethnic minorities and gay people.

If you want to make patronising remarks about knowledge of history, you might want to actually include some insight, rather than irrelevant references to the Soviet Union.

You should watch this, you might learn something about community resistance:

[video=youtube_share;aSNkTnIsWho]http://youtu.be/aSNkTnIsWho[/video]

Or, you know - you could just keep parotting racist talking points about BLM being a hate group.

People standing up to racist hate is always commendable.
Obviously you don't have to support nazism to oppose antifa tactics, but when people condemn various anti-racist resistance movements, but don't have the same condemnation for people pushing genocide and racial hatred, you have to wonder where their priorities lie.

Antifa aren't the ones trying to stage a coup. Antifa aren't trying to start a war. Antifa are trying to prevent either of those things happening - so all the off-topic talk about stalin is - again - kind of ironic.
Antifascists are anti-authoritarian. If you think otherwise, you've been fooled by propaganda.

People that go around talking about ethnic cleansing need to realise that violent rhetoric tends to elicit a violent response. The far right deride leftists as "snowflakes" or whatever, yet they're so scared of us that they can't even have a rally without turning up like they're armed for battle.

Can you see how calling antifa "terrorists" and calling a non-violent protest groups like BLM a hate group makes you look like you're siding with racists?
Antifa don't beat up people we "don't agree with". That's just completely false.
We target nazis, because we understand how dangerous they are.

It's pretty obvious that i'm wasting my time explaining why nazis shouldn't be tolerated, which is pretty depressing.
still, the more normalised nazism becomes - and the more people advocate on their behalf - the harder we will fight.
 
Why must everyone have to be on one side or the other. This bullshit happens all the time.

You can't criticize say, antifa without being deemed to be in the fascist side instead.

I could go to one forum and talk about how I don't believe a collectivist 2nd amendment interpretation is valid, and be deemed to be pro gun.
Then I could go to a different forum. And say I think the 2nd amendment should be changed, and be deemed Antigun.

Believe the collectivist interpretation is bullshit isn't the same as believing the individualist interpretation is right for society.
And believing it should be changed isn't the same as wanting to get rid of gun rights entirely.

In reality I believe both, that collectivist interpretation is horseshit but that individualist interpretation is to societies detriment. But that's not allowed. If I wanna agree with stricter gun control I gotta agree with it in the approved way.

Cause people get driven to such bullshit extremes in such large numbers so much of the time people don't really comprehend nuanced opinions that don't fit into the accepted dichotomy. You're either pro, or your anti. And which ever side you belong to comes with a set of beliefs that you must conform too.

For example. You can't be against abortion but not also believe it should be banned. You can believe the fetus is a human life but if you do, you must believe abortion is murder and a sin too. You can't be want stricter gun control but oppose the assault weapons ban. There is a set template for each side and if you don't conform to people, people will conform you to it for you.

It's infuriating. You can't have your own beliefs, you gotta share one of the two extremes. It doesn't matter what the issue is, every issue is like this. And it's true. Most people don't have a nuanced view. People derive validation for their opinions by seeing others who agree. So they tend to wind up believing in the set template. It starts with a small thing, believing say, that we need stricter gun control. Then the rest of your opinions around that one small belief get shifted to conform to what everyone else who agrees with the central premise agrees with. If you want stricter gun control, you will likely come to believe the answer is the specific kind of gun control every other gun control advocate is advocating.

I know why, it's cause people are sheep, they are psychologically driven to conform through the ways I described above. And in democracies the system drives people to clump together into two opposed sides cause if either side were comprised of more diverse, nuanced views, the side that has a uniform belief template will outnumber them the side that's more diverse and beat them. But it's still bullshit.

It drives me nuts that I can't give an opinion without a dozen other stances coming with it. I can't for example say I don't believe approve of abortion without also becoming religious too. I can't defend the fascists free speech rights without being on their side.

It's maddening.
 
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You can criticise antifa without coming across as a nazi apologist. People like swilow manage to do so - there are quite of people who raise objections to militant approaches to anti-fascist activism on BL, without leaning on extremely hyperbolic claims.

I appreciate having the discussion with those people, because they seem to be able to balance different aspects of the conversation (like acknowledging that racism and nazism are wrong - which seems to be extremely difficult for some).

It actually makes for an engaging discussion, rather than feeling like you're talking to a someone who isn't capable of acknowledging why people put their lives and safety on the line to stand in the way of something as toxic and negative as neo-nazism.

The problem with discussing antifa with someone who seems to have a deeply racist worldview is that they're obviously going to demonise it.
On the other hand, people who don't agree with antifa tactics, but are more generally reasonable and enlightened can have a decent debate about it, because they're not operating in an entirely different ideological and ethical sphere.

I certainly don't think it's a 'you're with us or you're against us' situation at all.
But sometimes you really have to question where people are coming from.
 
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Do you like ketchup on your hotdogs or not, Jess? Have you spent five hours holding up the line at the ballpark going over how you can't pick a side in that debate? I mean, it depends on the ketchup or what if there's not mustard and it's like only the sriracha left and oh, it's maddening!

Can the ketchup at least have a say here, can it pack some onions too, or is that too much for the hypocrites at Oscar Mayer?

It's an easy question that doesn't presuppose the other choices. In this thread, ketchup would be symbolic of fascism, maybe the blood that flows as it comes to power or something literary. Messers SpaceJunk, aifhl, and I are opposed to ketchup, not just on hotdogs but anywhere. It doesn't require you to be a fan of stone ground coarse spicy brown mustard.

Advanced symbolism: you could also make the question, "do you want a BARE hotdog or not?" They didn't ask what you would put on your hotdog, just if you wanted it plain. That would be like the gun control that you never discuss, where folks say, "hotdogs should never have toppings ever no way," and others say, "at least put some fucking mustard on it."

Or you can sub in abortion, still works. Do you want to ban abortion or not? Simple question. Wait, you're waffling? Sounds like you're not pro-life then, stop saying you are (people in general, I don't know or care about your views there, Jess)

These are examples of an extreme position, and the rich tapestry of all human jackassery left.

But wait, antifa are clearly extreme and identical to fascists in every way, so you're protesting yourself, and because it involves talking, you HATE FREE SPEECH!

Well, I'm using words that the rest of us agree on, and that makes no sense. We've spent a thousand real words on it trying to help you out, explaining the same thing.
 
Aw man you prick now I'm hungry for a hotdog. :(
And I'm a heavy opiate user I don't get hungry very often.

I know it's not relevant but, I really didn't follow your post, so I'm more interested in talking about hotdogs. Yes to ketchup, mustard too. And onions. All great. Fuck me I'm hungry now.
 
Veggie dogs? Man even your food preferences are ultra left :D.

Nah man, I want a hot dog. A real one made of all the cuts of meat nobody will use for anything else.

EDIT: See this is nice. I don't wanna talk about war and guns and fascists and hate. I wanna talk about hotdogs. :(
 
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Yeah, i haven't eaten meat in like 20 years.

I fucken hate kale though. That shit makes me physically ill.
 
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Yeah, i haven't eaten meat in like 20 years.

I fucken hate kale though. That shit makes me physically ill.

Ive entertained the idea of vegetarianism before. I really don't like the way we treat animals in the food industry. But... But... My hot dog :(.
 
I've been vegan for a couple of years now, and never felt better.
Not strictly an ethical thing (animal-derived foods really lose their appeal after you've cut them out of your diet - at least they did for me) and i really enjoy a plant based diet.

But yeah, i like mustard :)

This is one derailing that is a little more palatable than the usual.
 
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