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Vegas Mandalay Bay mass shooting / Gun Control 2017 Thread

spacejunk said:
which is why (in my admittedly amateur analysis) I get the feeling that constitutional justifications for "gun rights" are cynical (ad overly-simplistic) exploitation of a complex legal argument.
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i tend to agree.

here's the text of the 2nd amendment: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

nuttynutskin (don't mean to single you out but i know you own a gun and talk about your right to do so) but to which militia do you belong and can you talk about how well it's regulated?

i think there's a lot of intellectual dishonesty on display with this issue. it would be hard but i'd probably respect some gun owners more if they just said "i own a gun because i like shooting things and it's my right. i also place my right to own a gun higher than the lives of the 60 people who died in vegas. that's the price society pays so i can have a gun." :\ honestly, i'm not 100% sure how i feel about that...

alasdair
 
Early English settlers in America viewed the right to arms and/or the right to bear arms and/or state militias as important for one or more of these purposes (in no particular order):

enabling the people to organize a militia system.
participating in law enforcement;
deterring tyrannical government;
repelling invasion;
suppressing insurrection, allegedly including slave revolts;
facilitating a natural right of self-defense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
 
^ right. but those views are interpretation. they were not enumerated in the amendment. so we can at least agree that the amendment is open to interpretation?

let me ask you another question. a lot of gun owners use their weapons for hunting, recreational shooting and have them for self/home defense. that's fine. but they say it's the fact that the amendment grants them the right to bear arms in case they ever have to overthrow a tyrannical government which is the underlying reason.

when george bush was president, he invaded iraq and justified it by lying to the american people. further, he signed the 'patriot' act and authorized the nsa to invade the privacy of u.s. citizens with no requirement for a search warrant. and a thousand other examples of insidious government tyranny.

if gun-toting, 2nd-amendment believers don't think that's reason enough to get busy taking the government down a notch, what's it going to take? seriously, what are they waiting for?

alasdair
 
It's right that we already had the right to bear arms before the second amendment. As far as "taking the government down a notch" there's a slight imbalance in fire power. Anyone that wants to overthrow the government wouldn't stand a chance against the military.
 
nuttynutskin said:
Early English settlers in America viewed the right to arms and/or the right to bear arms and/or state militias as important for one or more of these purposes (in no particular order):

enabling the people to organize a militia system.
participating in law enforcement;
deterring tyrannical government;
repelling invasion;
suppressing insurrection, allegedly including slave revolts;
facilitating a natural right of self-defense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
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Your example doesn't help your case much. You may have a natural right of self-defense, that may be facilitated by arms, not a right to arms first. At least the way you've put it. I'm sure 17th century English is less helpful than 18th century English. Are "settlers views" like "man on the street" reporting then? I'm sure if you lived in Boston you thought less about any of that compared to somebody pushing through the wilds 100 miles inland.

If you want to make a legal argument on English Common Law, the English probably have you beat, and it didn't go your way. If you say the Americas were a special place compared to England, it ain't special anymore. People go on arduous drives on the interstate TO see a wolf in Yellowstone. Although the savages do still live on reservations, and the right-wing make fun of the French.

Deterring tyrannical government--do you really thing early English settlers in the Americas gave some reporter the answer, "why yes, I'm standing here on wild shores surrounded by hostile natives and unknown carnivorous wildlife, and this is my muzzle-loaded firearm that cost me ten years worth of indentured servitude. I keep it just in case we declare independence in 100 years and have to fight off the Crown."


ETA: as for all these militias everywhere, isn't it that the "police" as we know them weren't really around then?
 
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spacejunk said:
I've never really understood americans' attachment to the constitution.
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8o
images

It's existence has insured your existence as your grandparents/parents would have died in an asian slave camp, our constitution is damn near jerkoff material in most countries...:|

spacejunk said:
a gun amnesty of the sort we've had in australia wouldn't work in the USA
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There is no comparison to the sole superpower and land of crocodile dundee, Brazil has a higher GDP than the island formally known as prison, you're 3 tenths higher than Mexico.
 
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Fresco said:
You want more examples??
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for every example of somebody with a gun beating off an assailant (or whatever) there is another of somebody being murdered with a gun (or a kid accidentally shooting his sister with a gun or whatever).

does whoever can come up with the most examples 'win'? because, if so, i think you have your work cut out for you.

alasdair
 
David Wooderson said:
your grandparents/parents would have died in an asian slave camp
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The Japs couldn't even fully conquer China. At no point would they have been capable of mounting and then supplying the kind of seaborne invasion needed to get a foothold in Australia proper, much less actually conquer the place. In fact much of the US Pacific theatre was fed and supplied almost entirely by Australia.

There is no comparison to the sole superpower and land of crocodile dundee, Brazil has a higher GDP than the island formally known as prison, you're 3 tenths higher than Mexico.
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The US was Britain's prison colony before Australia. It was the traitorous treachery of Britons living in America declaring independence that forced the Brits to seek alternatives - ie Botany Bay.
 
^^^^
Asshole that used to make dough of of "girls on trampolines while making the elderly chug poison for a paycheck" is all of a sudden neo jesus christ, smfh
He feelz soooo hard = he matter now, hahahhaa
Those fake tears have to be tasty, they're funnier than any beer can make things lol.
His baby had heart problem = he matter Jimmy "fake ass shilling PAID" Kimmel.

CFC said:
The Japs couldn't even fully conquer China. At no point would they have been capable of mounting and then supplying the kind of seaborne invasion needed to get a foothold in Australia proper, much less actually conquer the place. In fact much of the US Pacific theatre was fed and supplied almost entirely by Australia.



The US was Britain's prison colony before Australia. It was the traitorous treachery of Britons living in America declaring independence that forced the Brits to seek alternatives - ie Botany Bay.
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Qoute #1:
I said asian who knows what would have happened had the Nazi's conquered Russia which they would have absolutely accomplished without the USA's involvement, the Russians arrived to rape germany on ford trucks and American money.

Thats why we're #1 and everyone else doesn't matter....to we American citizens at least.

Quote #2:

LMFAO

Bullshit, not even worth a detailed response, however to sum it up...... you are still to this day apart of the facade of a British empire, just like Cuckanda, at least we American citizens aren't stuck paying your bills....well armed defense excluded lol.
 
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Fresco said:
Maybe you're special. I know lots of Americans who say they feel safer with a gun
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My mommy does say I'm special, but you're pretty special talking about how guns make you safe . . . in Canada. Easy to say you oppose it when you're surrounded by effective gun control.

nutter's nutsack said:
I don't know what you're on about.
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Mr. Nutsack, you'll forgive me for assuming at first that you were referring to some English Common Law thing as a basis for the 2nd Amendment, in which case the point you bolded does not back you up. Then I realized, who are these Early English Settlers, who are worried about tyranny, when they already have a King an ocean away? And who asked them?

It made me suspicious of Wikipedia, and the bullets all cite "in no particular order" second and third sources, which is too bad. Except for the tyranny line. That comes from "HumanEvents" a website of "Powerful Conservative Voices" with "Guns & Patriots" as the second tab, and the author is not a historian. It probably was snuck in there after "Early English Settlers" was written, since HumanEvents cites the usual Founding Fathers (not early settlers, not even the last English settlers).

Fresco said:
Of course the tyrannical government argument doesnt really apply today anymore. But self-defense still very much does.
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The argument is made less when there's a Republican admin. Your videos, would you use your "AK-47 clone", ie. a Soviet sub-machine gun, in those situations? Or is that strictly for the confined spaces in your house?


Dave again said:
It's existence has insured your existence as your grandparents/parents would have died in an asian slave camp, our constitution is damn near jerkoff material in most countries...
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FFS, all those reasons to defend the US Constitution you learned in grade school, and you gotta do that? Enjoy your beer Dave.
 
David Wooderson said:
Thats why we're #1 and everyone else doesn't matter....to we American citizens at least.

Quote #2:

LMFAO

Bullshit, not even worth a detailed response, however to sum it up...... you are still to this day apart of the facade of a British empire, just like Cuckanda, at least we American citizens aren't stuck paying your bills....well armed defense excluded lol.
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it takes a special kind of person to troll a thread about someone murdering 58 innocent people, and trying to turn it into some argument about countries.

i don't have a patriotic bone in my body, but when shit like this happens in the US, i am grateful i don't live there, i must admit.
no amount of historical revisionism on your part will change the fact that american gun culture is insane and out of control.
 
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