Statues of traitors proudly displayed in the US Capital Building.

[Escher's Waterfall]

The National Statuary Hall Collection contains two statues provided by each state in the Union. A statue of Lee in uniform, sword by his side, was donated by Virginia in 1909. Aside from that sculpture, there are seven other statues of Confederate icons that are held for display inside the Capitol — including one of Jefferson Davis, the president of the Confederacy, which was donated by Mississippi.

- Village Voice

Did we miss the part where these individuals proudly took part of an armed rebellion against the US government?

 

[Scrofula]

No, no, they were proudly defending their heritage, you know, sweet tea and pork rinds or something. Mint juleps and fanning yourself on the veranda while you look out over fields of cotton and no, don't look at those folks picking, look at all the moss on them trees over there.

(Anyone know what a "julep" is? Not rhetorical.)

 

[Felonious Monk]

Did we miss the part where these individuals proudly took part of an armed rebellion against the US government?

Unfortunately, because of political considerations after the war, Confederates never got the justice they deserved, nor was the iconology banned/disgrace to the lengths it should have been. Though there's an argument to be made that living in the south was worse punishment than just hanging them all.

 

[Cream Gravy?]

^Don't you think that's a bit harsh?

I grew up admiring General Lee's ingenuity. I really don't get why people are suddenly making such a huge fuss about Confederate memorials. I don't even see the battle flag flying around here much any more, how much more of history must be forgotten for penance?

 

[alpha_centauri]

You all need to study the history of the United States, and the history of the civil war more. The Civil War or war between the states, and confederacy was started because it was an act of Northern states' aggression, and it had nothing to do with wanting to end slavery, free slaves, etc.

 

[Cream Gravy?]

Fear of slave freedom (what about our precious white women?!) was a main pushing point; however, I would argue that it was acts of both the North and South that eventually led to the war. Honestly the current political situation is the closest to such a congressional disparity we've been since 1865.

 

[alpha_centauri]

Fear of slave freedom (what about our precious white women?!) was a main pushing point; however, I would argue that it was acts of both the North and South that eventually led to the war. Honestly the current political situation is the closest to such a congressional disparity we've been since 1865.

LOL no it's not, in the United States yes people are divided but it's nowhere near as bad as it was during the civil war; but you can thank Obama for dividing people. Trump wants to bring people together but the idiot leftists/antifas people do not want this and believe that all of their silly protests actually accomplish something when in reality they do not at all.

 

[Cream Gravy?]

Sure.

Then what decade would you say is more divided than this one, aside from the 1860s?

 

[alasdairm]

...you can thank Obama for dividing people. Trump wants to bring people together...

that's, to me, laughable nonsense. but humour me - what did obama do to divide people. what is trump doing to unite people?

...but the idiot leftists/antifas people...

when you can't make your point without insulting people, you're a divider too.

alasdair

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

You all need to study the history of the United States, and the history of the civil war more. The Civil War or war between the states, and confederacy was started because it was an act of Northern states' aggression, and it had nothing to do with wanting to end slavery, free slaves, etc.

In the momentous step, which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

- A Declaration of the Immediate Causes which Induce and Justify the Secession of the State of Mississippi from the Federal Union, 1861.

 

[alasdairm]

"the greatest material interest of the world"

right there.

alasdair

 

[Scrofula]

The north had to pay the workers in their factories. It's probably a bit harder to handle slaves when they have industrial machinery and steam pipes handy.

The south didn't have to pay anybody but the whip makers, and couldn't turn a profit otherwise.

There was a huge, enormous, vast chunk of land opening up to the West ("opening up" being a euphemism for genocide).

Which economic system would control it?

Of course that started a war.

 

[Scrofula]

people are suddenly making such a huge fuss about Confederate memorials.

You know most of them were put up by bigots in the 50's and 60's, during the civil rights marches and desegregation push, right?

Personally, I admire that y'all get away with it. Name ONE other nation on Earth, in all of human history, that allows memorials to insurrectionists?

I mean, other nations would imprison ALL the defeated soldiers, line up and shoot all the officers. Not let them put up statues to themselves. Try flashing a swastika in Germany some time.

And 150 years later the south whines about how we're oppressing them, by meekly suggesting they don't fly a rebel flag on government property.

 

[Felonious Monk]

^Cosmic, these 2 posts by Scrofula speak my ideas on the issue pretty perfectly.

Personally I don't think there's anything to admire about traitors who fought to preserve slavery, whether or not they were good military commanders or exemplary citizens otherwise--there is no otherwise to me. And while my personal viewpoint is the U.S.A. should have allowed the south to become their own nation after burning down Georgia and freeing the slaves, the fact of the matter is that the Confederacy lost the Civil War, and their officers were lucky they weren't lined up and shot (in comparison to what traditionally happens to insurrectionists, as Scrofula noted).

 

[Cream Gravy?]

I realize that many of these memorials were indeed erected for the wrong purposes and at times of particular racial tension. And believe me, I have studied the period and I understand that racism was the main driving force behind secession. I just really don't understand this vitriolic demonization of the whole Confederacy. Maybe I'm just biased. My mother has a photo of a relative of ours who died in the conflict (a Confederate) and I don't think that this current evolving attitude is fair to the overall plight of the South. Most of the men who fought for the Confederacy owned no slaves, slaves were a commodity of the rich the way owning a factory became later. I'm sure many of them did in fact believe racist things (as did many Northerners) but that doesn't mean they should be condemned for being victims of circumstance. Remember this was when they still drafted soldiers. The whole thing is too complex to just say "Racism/rant".

 

[Scrofula]

The "vitriolic" demonization I see as pushback against creeping revisionism.

A lot of the soldiers who fought for the confederacy were poor and had no choice, and also didn't own any slaves. It seems appropriate to build a memorial for them, BUT, that's always been (and still is) the case for soldiers everywhere, and nameless grunts already have many monuments.

But the war was fought over who would control the economy in the West. One of those systems enslaved human beings into forced hard labor for life. You can't escape that fact, that only 150 years ago, you could murder a black child if she talked back to you, unless someone else literally owned her, in which case he'd sue, since it's property damage.

It is not some blood-libel on southerners, and during the Great Migration, plenty of slave descendants found different but equal racism in the north. No one's innocent here. But don't pretend that this system wasn't central to the war.

Those who fly the "confederate flag" (none of the ones you see were actually flown at the time), deliberately or not dilute the horrors of that system. You can find plenty of attempts and some successes at getting a rosy picture of slavery into school text books.

Why is it important to fight that? Because implanting the idea that blacks were "better off" under slavery winds up promoting racist policy today. You also can't deny that some icons have become symbols used by modern racists. What other meaning can you put to the confederate flag anyway? The heritage, like it or not, includes the enslavement of a people, and the willingness to go to war to preserve it. Would you really fly it in front of your black friends and not reflect a bit on how you can not literally shoot them dead, or hang them, if you felt like it, anymore? And order the survivor to bury the body?

I'd like to think that we who oppose public monuments can separate contemporary southerners and dead racist plantation owners, and I think we do most of the time. But that gets tough watching Trump rallies. But, we're trying to counter the image of a pastoral south innocently rising to self-defense that so many want to promote--not to attack southerners, but to remind people of the horrifying realities. I mean, southern slavery was some of the worst in human history. Shit, Roman slaves were part of the household, worked as accountants and businessmen, had certain rights. Blacks in the south before the war were sub-human. Pack animals, same as a mule.

Personally though, I'm glad to live in a country where you can fly an enemy flag legally. And one where people will argue and vote on taking it down (rather than beat your ass).

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

I realize that many of these memorials were indeed erected for the wrong purposes and at times of particular racial tension. And believe me, I have studied the period and I understand that racism was the main driving force behind secession. I just really don't understand this vitriolic demonization of the whole Confederacy. Maybe I'm just biased. My mother has a photo of a relative of ours who died in the conflict (a Confederate) and I don't think that this current evolving attitude is fair to the overall plight of the South. Most of the men who fought for the Confederacy owned no slaves, slaves were a commodity of the rich the way owning a factory became later. I'm sure many of them did in fact believe racist things (as did many Northerners) but that doesn't mean they should be condemned for being victims of circumstance. Remember this was when they still drafted soldiers. The whole thing is too complex to just say "Racism/rant".

Same could be said for Nazi Germany, yet Nazi Germany is almost universally condemned.

Do you believe that we're too strong in our condemnation of Nazi Germany?

 

[David Wooderson]

The thing that scares me is that certain people feel that we as a society have moved-on so forward from that point in history and as a result have NOTHING to benefit in the history of such a conflict.

The reason I personally learned about the civil war was because I questioned why those statues were there, and as a result I am imparted with knowledge.

Yeah! tear down that $1,000+ statue that citizens that are most likely dead PAID for with implicit intent on PRESERVING HISTORY because you feel society is so advanced and great, that the mere presence of a statue is ruining your vibes man.

The fact that two complete opposites of ideology could agree to come together as one country and one people and cement that knowledge must be lost on you and many others.

Do you believe that we're too strong in our condemnation of Nazi Germany?

100%

Hitler should be spoken in the same way as believer's speak of the devil.

The fact that samantha bee can declare cancer victims as neo nazi's proves that whole heartily.

It's like ppl have been craving some hitler and ppl can't quite scratch the itch.

 

[Scrofula]

Mr. Wooderson I don't know what the hell you're saying.

But I just thought of a solution: what if southerners just started flying the US flag? Maybe a Waffle House flag?

Shit, find a new symbol already if you need to let everyone know you're from the south.

 

[zephyr]

that's, to me, laughable nonsense. but humour me - what did obama do to divide people. what is trump doing to unite people?

when you can't make your point without insulting people, you're a divider too.

alasdair

Obama put into place a scheme for universal healthcare. That divided people somewhat. Trump squashed it and divided more people by the square root of the oreviously divided people.