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2016 American Presidential Campaign

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With the computer systems, though, you can make the result literally whatever you want and counter your hypothetical forensics, make things look as legitimate as possible. If the attacker has access to the system before the election, they own it; if they have access to it during the election (say, the machine has a USB port, hopefully which would be hidden behind some kind of metal plate, but assume the adversary has the right kind of screwdriver and is skilled at speedily manipulating it and sleight of hand), then the attacker will need more confederates; unless, of course, the computers are, or have ever been, connected to the Internet, in which case there's no way the result can ever be trusted. And you're thinking small.

Assuming that an entire state is using a uniform system (which would almost certainly be the case) an adversary with sufficient resources could manipulate whatever precincts they want to, ideally from the attacker's perspective, before the machines are even rolled out (say, they connect them to the Internet and the usual security patches and such that computers automatically download are manipulated, which is a very feasible attack, or if there is an insider, even a janitor, where they keep the machines, or whatever … the possible scenarios are endless.) With respect to this kind of thing, no computer can be consider safe unless they have total red/black separation (which means that the system is in two parts, one which deals with sensitive information, and the other deals with other stuff like the user interface, and there is an absolute one way system to communicate data from the user interface to the database, and there is no communication except for the ability to enter a vote, although still, your code would have to be immaculate and free of all sorts of injection attacks and the like; preferably the one-way is on a physical level, as can be done with an RJ45 cable and a pocket knife, but commercial products exist, but you'd have to see that as a possible threat vector, too, given the stakes.)

Everything is a potential threat vector with respects to any computer, but with these, the stakes are high, you may be dealing with APT-level adversaries who can even do things like steal your equipment en route via mail and alter it, the possibilities are entirely endless. And someone who has that level of sophistication is not going to make the manipulation as obvious as in your scenario.

No, there is no such thing as safe computerized voting. We live in a world where it's technically feasible to assassinate people by hacking their cars or even their pacemakers, and where major governments and other organizations are routinely getting owned.

Now, I don't expect that if we adopt widespread electronic voting that we'll immediately wind up in a North Korea situation where the Dear Leader routinely gets 97% of the votes. But I would expect that it would be manipulated should some genuine outside third-party radical type actually become a threat. They fucked over Bernie Sanders (not even that radical) in quite a few ways; in a future e-voting world, that might not even be necessary, it could be just done with a few keystrokes or 90 seconds alone (or with good sleight of hand) with a machine and a USB stick. Imagine a situation where you had a genuinely committed Libertarian and a genuinely committed Socialist or Green or whatever, a Republican, and a Democrat all showing decent numbers at the polls. Do you think that the powers that be (which would be in charge of the systems to begin with) would allow the Libertarian or Green to win if they had the technical capacity (which they would) to prevent it? They might allow them to show respectable numbers, but never to win.

It might happen with paper ballots, too, but it's harder, more dangerous to be exposed, more open to forensic detection like you're talking about,etc.

Stick with hole punching and double/triple/whatever-locked boxes guarded by the sherrifs or whatever exactly it is they do now (it varies from place to place.)
 
With the computer systems, though, you can make the result literally whatever you want and counter your hypothetical forensics, make things look as legitimate as possible. If the attacker has access to the system before the election, they own it; if they have access to it during the election (say, the machine has a USB port, hopefully which would be hidden behind some kind of metal plate, but assume the adversary has the right kind of screwdriver and is skilled at speedily manipulating it and sleight of hand), then the attacker will need more confederates; unless, of course, the computers are, or have ever been, connected to the Internet, in which case there's no way the result can ever be trusted. And you're thinking small.

Assuming that an entire state is using a uniform system (which would almost certainly be the case) an adversary with sufficient resources could manipulate whatever precincts they want to, ideally from the attacker's perspective, before the machines are even rolled out (say, they connect them to the Internet and the usual security patches and such that computers automatically download are manipulated, which is a very feasible attack, or if there is an insider, even a janitor, where they keep the machines, or whatever … the possible scenarios are endless.) With respect to this kind of thing, no computer can be consider safe unless they have total red/black separation (which means that the system is in two parts, one which deals with sensitive information, and the other deals with other stuff like the user interface, and there is an absolute one way system to communicate data from the user interface to the database, and there is no communication except for the ability to enter a vote, although still, your code would have to be immaculate and free of all sorts of injection attacks and the like; preferably the one-way is on a physical level, as can be done with an RJ45 cable and a pocket knife, but commercial products exist, but you'd have to see that as a possible threat vector, too, given the stakes.)

Everything is a potential threat vector with respects to any computer, but with these, the stakes are high, you may be dealing with APT-level adversaries who can even do things like steal your equipment en route via mail and alter it, the possibilities are entirely endless. And someone who has that level of sophistication is not going to make the manipulation as obvious as in your scenario.

No, there is no such thing as safe computerized voting. We live in a world where it's technically feasible to assassinate people by hacking their cars or even their pacemakers, and where major governments and other organizations are routinely getting owned.

Now, I don't expect that if we adopt widespread electronic voting that we'll immediately wind up in a North Korea situation where the Dear Leader routinely gets 97% of the votes. But I would expect that it would be manipulated should some genuine outside third-party radical type actually become a threat. They fucked over Bernie Sanders (not even that radical) in quite a few ways; in a future e-voting world, that might not even be necessary, it could be just done with a few keystrokes or 90 seconds alone (or with good sleight of hand) with a machine and a USB stick. Imagine a situation where you had a genuinely committed Libertarian and a genuinely committed Socialist or Green or whatever, a Republican, and a Democrat all showing decent numbers at the polls. Do you think that the powers that be (which would be in charge of the systems to begin with) would allow the Libertarian or Green to win if they had the technical capacity (which they would) to prevent it? They might allow them to show respectable numbers, but never to win.

It might happen with paper ballots, too, but it's harder, more dangerous to be exposed, more open to forensic detection like you're talking about,etc.

Stick with hole punching and double/triple/whatever-locked boxes guarded by the sherrifs or whatever exactly it is they do now (it varies from place to place.)

You're wrong, with modern cryptography it IS possible to do secure voting and make it impossible to just change the vote to anything you want. The difficulty is in making it both safe AND anonymous, but that is also doable.

That said, I have great concerns about electronic voting. Computers and computer technology is pretty much my field of expertise. I am more than qualified to say that computer systems CAN be made safe. The problem is I don't trust the people responsible for designing it to do it properly. The problem isn't that computer systems can't be made safe, the problem is the utter incompetence of the people we often entrust to design the systems. This is especially the case where we desperately try to cut costs and design it as cheap as possible.

Paper voting is tried and true, it is easy to implement safely. I'm sure one day we will have safe electronic voting. But we must ensure we skimp no cost in recruiting the best of the best to design it.

People often say computers can't be made unhackable. But that's crap. It's an excuse to justify the failures of incompetent designers and engineers. It absolutely can be done. But you have to invest in getting people who know what they're doing. Designing something that's secure requires far more expertise than just designing something that works.
 
I, too, have pretty good knowledge of the relevant computer security material, although it's not my actual field and I don't have formal education in it. There are a variety of interesting protocols involving asymmetric cryptosystems that do meet the desiderata of election systems (anonymity, verifiability, accuracy, reliability, ...) although quite often one of them has to be sacrificed for the good of the rest. None of these protocols to my knowledge scale well, and if you're talking about having some kind of nationwide PKI then that's a problem in and of itself regarding privacy, because it risks becoming some kind of de facto national ID card or something of the like. And the issue is not with the protocols. There have been interesting and largely theoretical secure voting protocols existing for decades now. They're alright. But everything else?

As for reliable computer systems, maybe one day. But unlikely. Because reliability comes from simplicity, and security. If I want to encrypt very sensitive stuff, I'd put burn it on CD and put in and out of my ancient 386 which has never been connected to the Internet since like 1994 and runs an ancient linux version. I can still rely on my grandfather's M1 Garand in a live-or-die situation. But there are so many different layers to modern computers you can't trust them. A truly secure voting system would have to be built from the ground up, no off-the-shelf components. It would have to be done with trusted provable, verifiable systems, from silicon upwards, which is truly a task in and of itself. There are the (somewhat dated perhaps) NSA "rainbow books" especially orange and red (maybe showing the length of time ago that I was actively studying this stuff that I reference them? But still, classic and important.) And, most perhaps as the greatest problem, it would have to be audited by trustworthy people. Set something up verifiable and trusted, set it up on some tamper-resistant FPGAs or whatever, dedicate secure input and output, no real operating system in the strict sense, single-purpose setups, basically, and maybe you have a chance, publish the whole thing so people can duplicate the systems, verify them themselves, set them up themselves on a local basis or whatever, but still, you have the issue as presented by Stalin, "it doesn't matter who casts the votes, but who counts them" (possibly apocryphal, paraphrasing from memory.)

Which, of course, goes for paper ballots, too. But I just see so many possibilities for electronic voting machines going wrong. And little to no advantage, save convenience, for using them. (And shortcuts for convenience sure has been the bane of a lot of secure systems and a lot of other types of issues all around the world.) And the math, the protocols, all that, perhaps, is verifiable, but when you get down to the proverbial nuts and bolts of the thing, a way will be found to either alter either the input, the stored information, or the output. Just like just about every significant hack that goes on these days. Nobody's going ahead and factoring out the primes, or whatever, they're not going through the front door, they're finding a window or just blasting their way through the wall. I just don't see it being done in a bulletproof manner. I am doubtful that it can be done in a way that approaches the security of our current paper-ballot systems. I'm not alone in thinking this way (see the Schneier links, among other literature in the area.)
 
SKL said:
Obama won with nothing but a just-black-enough face to get "minorities" and self-flagellating White folks excited but not-black-enough to be threatening to soccer moms, a teleprompter, and the adoration of the media
What a load of racist codswallop.
The guy is the finest orator your country has elected in living memory.

No amount of angry-white-man vitriol changes that fact.
 
What a load of racist codswallop.
The guy is the finest orator your country has elected in living memory.

As far as I know, voter turnout in 2016 was similar to 2012.

However, Trump flipped countries that went Obama last time.

I'm not sure if race was a factor in any of the elections. I'd have to see the numbers, especially by state breakdown.

Anecdotally, I saw people voting for Trump that didn't vote for years. Trump also flipped counties that went for Obama last time. Perhaps both were viewed as outsiders to the political system.
 
Can you point to any proposal that gives anonymous, hack-proof voting?

There are many ways. I'll start with the actual voting part. Several proposals are listed here https://crypto.stanford.edu/pbc/notes/crypto/voting.html.

But as for an example. We could generate a cryptographic key for each voter. The voter gets a private key that can only encrypt, the government keeps a public key that can decrypt it. This key would not be tied to the voter beyond initial generation. The voter uses the key to encrypt or sign some identifier that identifies the candidate. After the election, all the votes are decrypted and tabulated. The authority can ensure any votes with that key after the first one are discarded. As a result, we have all the votes, don't know who voted for whom, and can ensure that each key capable of voting was only handed to eligible voters. The private keys can be destroyed after the election ensuring that anonymity remains long after the election. There are many other options apart from this. I just came up with this one on the spot. It is absolutely doable. Using modern cryptography we can ensure that the electronic votes are unforgeable, anonymous, and publicly vetting. As good as if not better than paper voting. In practice we would probably provide voting machines for people to use, providing them with perhaps a smart card containing their key.

It could also be done online with peoples home computers. People can't be trusted to have a secure computer of course, but it could be done in theory. Perhaps you could provide a secure usb stick that enables you to boot into a secure environment on the home computer, using an internal physical tamperproof chip that contains the required cryptographic key to establish a secure authenticated connection to the voting server. Then we can make the home computer secure for the purpose of voting.

I agree with SKL in that for that last part, we would likely want to custom design an open source environment for such a live usb key. We could take advantage of the ubiquity of TPMs and secure booting to further improve security. There are other options too.

As for SKLs concerns regarding public operating systems, I think it's unfounded. A fully locked down and secured environment of say, openbsd or SELinux perhaps. With all unnecessary packages removed, should be perfectly safe. The main treat is external attacks and given most people are behind NATs and after closing down all inbound ports, with the openbsd or SELinux kernel there's no way someone breaking in. And the certificates would prevent all but the most basic connections from even being established with the remote server in the event of a man in the middle attack, and even that's unlikely to begin with given the number of voters. Nevertheless this only applies with the hypothetical online voting. If we keep doing it at polling booths we can lock it down even more.

The problem is even though all this technology exists, we repeatedly fail to use it properly. Again and again giant companies and governments don't just make extremely small obscure oversights creating vectors of attack. Most of the big public hacks we hear about, when we learn how it happened, turn out to be amateur hour across the board.

It is exceedingly rare that I hear about big public hacks that don't turn out to have been caused because of astonishingly poor design. It's kinda sad, so rare is it that something truly impressive, like say stuxnet, is the cause.

Everything I've said is just the beginning, there are lots of other, I'm sure even better approaches. Its been a while but ive seen some very secure solutions for cryptographic voting.

I, too, have pretty good knowledge of the relevant computer security material, although it's not my actual field and I don't have formal education in it. There are a variety of interesting protocols involving asymmetric cryptosystems that do meet the desiderata of election systems (anonymity, verifiability, accuracy, reliability, ...) although quite often one of them has to be sacrificed for the good of the rest. None of these protocols to my knowledge scale well, and if you're talking about having some kind of nationwide PKI then that's a problem in and of itself regarding privacy, because it risks becoming some kind of de facto national ID card or something of the like. And the issue is not with the protocols. There have been interesting and largely theoretical secure voting protocols existing for decades now. They're alright. But everything else?

As for reliable computer systems, maybe one day. But unlikely. Because reliability comes from simplicity, and security. If I want to encrypt very sensitive stuff, I'd put burn it on CD and put in and out of my ancient 386 which has never been connected to the Internet since like 1994 and runs an ancient linux version. I can still rely on my grandfather's M1 Garand in a live-or-die situation. But there are so many different layers to modern computers you can't trust them. A truly secure voting system would have to be built from the ground up, no off-the-shelf components. It would have to be done with trusted provable, verifiable systems, from silicon upwards, which is truly a task in and of itself. There are the (somewhat dated perhaps) NSA "rainbow books" especially orange and red (maybe showing the length of time ago that I was actively studying this stuff that I reference them? But still, classic and important.) And, most perhaps as the greatest problem, it would have to be audited by trustworthy people. Set something up verifiable and trusted, set it up on some tamper-resistant FPGAs or whatever, dedicate secure input and output, no real operating system in the strict sense, single-purpose setups, basically, and maybe you have a chance, publish the whole thing so people can duplicate the systems, verify them themselves, set them up themselves on a local basis or whatever, but still, you have the issue as presented by Stalin, "it doesn't matter who casts the votes, but who counts them" (possibly apocryphal, paraphrasing from memory.)

Which, of course, goes for paper ballots, too. But I just see so many possibilities for electronic voting machines going wrong. And little to no advantage, save convenience, for using them. (And shortcuts for convenience sure has been the bane of a lot of secure systems and a lot of other types of issues all around the world.) And the math, the protocols, all that, perhaps, is verifiable, but when you get down to the proverbial nuts and bolts of the thing, a way will be found to either alter either the input, the stored information, or the output. Just like just about every significant hack that goes on these days. Nobody's going ahead and factoring out the primes, or whatever, they're not going through the front door, they're finding a window or just blasting their way through the wall. I just don't see it being done in a bulletproof manner. I am doubtful that it can be done in a way that approaches the security of our current paper-ballot systems. I'm not alone in thinking this way (see the Schneier links, among other literature in the area.)

If you wanna encrypt stuff securly, ditch the 386, set up a locked down openbsd or similar setup, root access disabled at kernel level while booted, locked down kernel, chrooted user environment. Perhaps an IDS. Keep it offline, store it on a livecd or something. Ditch the ancient linux distro. You can probably root it in 5 seconds with one of the old kernel vulnerabilities like the ptrace syscall vulnerability from a decade ago.

Yes we want a secure and locked down OS, one well vetted like openbsd or SELinux which is made for the purpose. But our main concern is often remote code execution vulnerabilities, and once you close down all remote port access, put in shit like address space randomization, disable execution in writable memory pages, etc. It's effectively impossible for someone to break in. I invite to find an instance where such a set up has been defeated by remote because of a problem in the code rather than a user error. And as for user errors like social engineering, that's why we would set it up so the user can't modify it or do anything with it except vote. As unlikely as it would be given we are trying to stop people impersonating other voters, we would probably set it up so that it disables hardware like pccard, firewire, and similar DMA capable attack vectors.

It can be done. We would make it open source and invite people and offer a sizeable cash reward for anyone who can break it long before we ever use it.

As for "every significant hack these days". Most are social engineering or the retarded "secret question" approach. Most of the rest are boneheaded amateur mistakes like poor input sanitization enabling sql injection or the like. Very very very very VERY few have been done by any truly impressive method. Ajs virtually none where the approaches ive mentioned have been properly put in place. And that's with a complex website setup usually. In this case we are talking about a fairly simple server for vote lodgement. No website needed at all. Just a basic SSL enabled server that the voting software can talk to. I wouldn't do it with a web server. Too many unknowns in a remotely access able port. Not a risk we need to take. Especially given we would be having the voters use a live environment where we can give them a custom voting interface that just collects the vote and lodges it with the server. The server would have no open ports except for the voting server and for extra peace of mind would be firewalled off. Just for extra over the top levels of certainty.
 
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Computer security is well beyond the needs of the voters. There will be a small percentage of vocal individuals that won't like it and we will spend billions on wasted studies that any high school student could write up the results for in 5 minutes.

We bank with phones, computer and tablets and if asked which is more important to me to be secure I would say banking over voting. Hackers that are aledgedly going to jump through hoops to steal my vote or make fake votes should probably invest their skills in hacking banks, just a guess but if these people are so prevalent why is our financial world so secure? The logic just falls to the floor on why voting, which is of no value to 50% of the population, has to be more secure than money.

The voter apathy we are experiencing is a sign of the health of our current political system. I spend nearly 50% of my labour to support these people running my country. Each year they claim, due to increasing complexity, they need more. It's gone well past the point of my being a fool to allow it to continue. Starting with new voting methods is just a step in the direction of a very long road.
 
There are many ways. I'll start with the actual voting part. Several proposals are listed here https://crypto.stanford.edu/pbc/notes/crypto/voting.html.

But as for an example. We could generate a cryptographic key for each voter. The voter gets a private key that can only encrypt, the government keeps a public key that can decrypt it. This key would not be tied to the voter beyond initial generation. The voter uses the key to encrypt or sign some identifier that identifies the candidate. After the election, all the votes are decrypted and tabulated. The authority can ensure any votes with that key after the first one are discarded. As a result, we have all the votes, don't know who voted for whom, and can ensure that each key capable of voting was only handed to eligible voters. The private keys can be destroyed after the election ensuring that anonymity remains long after the election. There are many other options apart from this. I just came up with this one on the spot. It is absolutely doable. Using modern cryptography we can ensure that the electronic votes are unforgeable, anonymous, and publicly vetting. As good as if not better than paper voting. In practice we would probably provide voting machines for people to use, providing them with perhaps a smart card containing their key.

It could also be done online with peoples home computers. People can't be trusted to have a secure computer of course, but it could be done in theory. Perhaps you could provide a secure usb stick that enables you to boot into a secure environment on the home computer, using an internal physical tamperproof chip that contains the required cryptographic key to establish a secure authenticated connection to the voting server. Then we can make the home computer secure for the purpose of voting.

Sort of like a Clipper chip? That worked out well. As soon as it goes tamperproof (which of course isn't "tamper proof," estimates in 1994 of what it would take to reverse one were in the $100,000-$1 million range), out with tamperproof goes verifiability. As I said before, then nationwide PKI is troubling; the user should be able to generate his own key, but protocols allowing that don't scale if they allow for any sort of verification of eligibility and don't do well with eliminating the problem of dual-voting. A lot of very clever protocols have been invented, but the really clever ones, the ones that come close to solving all of the desiderata, don't scale.

I agree with SKL in that for that last part, we would likely want to custom design an open source environment for such a live usb key. We could take advantage of the ubiquity of TPMs and secure booting to further improve security. There are other options too.

As for SKLs concerns regarding public operating systems, I think it's unfounded. A fully locked down and secured environment of say, openbsd or SELinux perhaps. With all unnecessary packages removed, should be perfectly safe. The main treat is external attacks and given most people are behind NATs and after closing down all inbound ports, with the openbsd or SELinux kernel there's no way someone breaking in. And the certificates would prevent all but the most basic connections from even being established with the remote server in the event of a man in the middle attack, and even that's unlikely to begin with given the number of voters. Nevertheless this only applies with the hypothetical online voting. If we keep doing it at polling booths we can lock it down even more.

The problem is even though all this technology exists, we repeatedly fail to use it properly. Again and again giant companies and governments don't just make extremely small obscure oversights creating vectors of attack. Most of the big public hacks we hear about, when we learn how it happened, turn out to be amateur hour across the board.

It is exceedingly rare that I hear about big public hacks that don't turn out to have been caused because of astonishingly poor design. It's kinda sad, so rare is it that something truly impressive, like say stuxnet, is the cause.

Everything I've said is just the beginning, there are lots of other, I'm sure even better approaches. Its been a while but ive seen some very secure solutions for cryptographic voting.

If you wanna encrypt stuff securly, ditch the 386, set up a locked down openbsd or similar setup, root access disabled at kernel level while booted, locked down kernel, chrooted user environment. Perhaps an IDS. Keep it offline, store it on a livecd or something. Ditch the ancient linux distro. You can probably root it in 5 seconds with one of the old kernel vulnerabilities like the ptrace syscall vulnerability from a decade ago.

It could be the 386 running Linux, it could be something equally antiquated, another architecture than Intel is actually probably preferable, running something custom made that I could quite easily hack up in assembly language and C on bare metal in a few days of sustained work and then months of debugging; the point is for it to be small and easily understood to lower the attack space, and for it to be airgapped and to both take in and receive read-only memory. The rest doesn't really matter. MS-DOS is fine too. A $20 Raspberry Pi which I think is open hardware too is fine. I would be absolutely fine with a 386 or even worse running DOS (i.e. bare metal with some built in calls and hooks which might actually better than Linux in this case) for the purposes of doing any encryption, as long as I could read and burn CDs, or otherwise securely and unidirectionally transfer information (although interpreting this information once in unsafe space again is a problem.) I'm primarily just talking about airgapping, and also on the fact that old systems are reliable and well-known (hence the example of old, elegantly-designed guns with few moving parts; you could add the 1911) whereas systems we have these days are so complex and layered nobody really understands them and all the layers; let alone once you connect them to the Internet (even with whatever firewalls, proxies, etc. or other measures you can imagine.) This is the sort of thing that I would use if I was involved in serious criminal or political activity, and the absolute minimum of what I'd want to see in terms of securing voting machines, I consider voting from home to be impossible to secure and also extremely undesirable as it makings voting easier.

Yes we want a secure and locked down OS, one well vetted like openbsd or SELinux which is made for the purpose. But our main concern is often remote code execution vulnerabilities, and once you close down all remote port access, put in shit like address space randomization, disable execution in writable memory pages, etc. It's effectively impossible for someone to break in. I invite to find an instance where such a set up has been defeated by remote because of a problem in the code rather than a user error. And as for user errors like social engineering, that's why we would set it up so the user can't modify it or do anything with it except vote. As unlikely as it would be given we are trying to stop people impersonating other voters, we would probably set it up so that it disables hardware like pccard, firewire, and similar DMA capable attack vectors.

It can be done. We would make it open source and invite people and offer a sizeable cash reward for anyone who can break it long before we ever use it.

Most of this goes without saying and should be a prerequisite for any trusted system. But you're still talking about a system that is not airgapped, which is inherently untrustworthy for sensitive functions. You're talking about something that I might feel reliable for digital banking or even, maybe, for information on internet-mediated drug sales on a relatively small scale (say, ~$100-250,000/year, enough to be pissing in the ocean as far as LE with serious resources is willing to go.) Osama bin Laden did quite well with airgapped communications, up until, as you go on to say, he was ultimately defeated by social engineering and synthesis of together a bunch of different streams of intelligence, and probably a lot of machinations within the Pakistani government and their not-always-aligned intelligence apparatus and between theirs and ours, that we aren't now, may never, or won't for a long to be privy to.

As for "every significant hack these days". Most are social engineering or the retarded "secret question" approach. Most of the rest are boneheaded amateur mistakes like poor input sanitization enabling sql injection or the like. Very very very very VERY few have been done by any truly impressive method. Ajs virtually none where the approaches ive mentioned have been properly put in place. And that's with a complex website setup usually. In this case we are talking about a fairly simple server for vote lodgement. No website needed at all. Just a basic SSL enabled server that the voting software can talk to. I wouldn't do it with a web server. Too many unknowns in a remotely access able port. Not a risk we need to take. Especially given we would be having the voters use a live environment where we can give them a custom voting interface that just collects the vote and lodges it with the server. The server would have no open ports except for the voting server and for extra peace of mind would be firewalled off. Just for extra over the top levels of certainty.

I think I put the clause in the wrong place in "every significant hack these days," because I'm more or less agreeing with you, I'm saying nobody attacks cryptography or protocols head on (unless there ends up being a significant vulnerability in them, like WEP), most everything else is executing dumb exploits.

But if voting were to be done over the wire, and yes, thank God you're not talking about a web server, we use them for way too much (remember the original online banking systems which were actually more or less built up from the ground up, or at least coded from the ground up? Few people will, they didn't see a lot of use, because they were too hard." They kept waiting in line and balancing their checkbooks. Eventually the bankers did some cost/benefit analysis and realized that maybe online banking as, more or less, we have it now wouldn't be so bad, and even handling of quite large, e.g. trading portfolios, and it's, effectively, not, see below. One thing it it did do is put a bunch of people out of work, but computers did that in general, and that was pretty much inevitable, so I can't really lay that one at their feet except that they were thinking economics over the security of the traditional way of doing this. Although, to tell the truth, in terms of physical security, online banking has probably mitigated some risks; why don't you really hear about bank robbing much anymore? It's definitely still going on. But in almost every case, the take is pissant stuff, >$10k,; the smart money in strong-arming is in robbing small pharmacies but then you have to take a dual-proficiency in drug dealing like half this forum, or, for more the skilled professional thief, high end jewelry stores and such. Who often don't like to advertise the fact and are well insured. No, none of this is like in the movies, just like hacking, of banks or anything else, is.)

But the very idea of voting from home over the Internet is a terrifying one. Everything I was writing about was about voting machines.

On two accounts; (1)—it will mean that no election, ever, can be trusted again; and (2)—it will mean that more people will vote, just like more people started banking online; I outlined in my previous lengthy post about why this is bad.

Computer security is well beyond the needs of the voters. There will be a small percentage of vocal individuals that won't like it and we will spend billions on wasted studies that any high school student could write up the results for in 5 minutes.

If you have this little knowledge of the highly academic, rigorous nature of proven, verifiable computer systems ...

We bank with phones, computer and tablets and if asked which is more important to me to be secure I would say banking over voting. Hackers that are aledgedly going to jump through hoops to steal my vote or make fake votes should probably invest their skills in hacking banks, just a guess but if these people are so prevalent why is our financial world so secure? The logic just falls to the floor on why voting, which is of no value to 50% of the population, has to be more secure than money.

... and this little knowledge of the actual attack vectors (i.e. the low hanging fruit and the stuff that's not going to attract nation state-actor level attention) that are used to actually steal money, then I hope that you're not my banker, or at least one of my bank's IT people.

The voter apathy we are experiencing is a sign of the health of our current political system. I spend nearly 50% of my labour to support these people running my country. Each year they claim, due to increasing complexity, they need more. It's gone well past the point of my being a fool to allow it to continue. Starting with new voting methods is just a step in the direction of a very long road.

You're completely on point except for the mistake in cause and correlation. Voter apathy may indeed correlated with the health of our political system, but how getting apathetic voters to vote on things and people they neither know nor understand is supposed to make things better I do not understand.

I wrote a long post about this the substance of which nobody's really responded to except to take something out of context about the campaigning-Obama versus governing-Obama's complete lack of charisma, and the falseness of it in the first place (which I think is evident to anyone who watches the news; sj, when's the last time you heard the man speak? He's among the most arrogant, smug, condescending bastards the entire political world has produced in my lifetime) taken out of context to call me racist.

Seeing voter apathy as the problem is just a scapegoat for the fundamental problems of our political and economic situation.

If voting is important, it would warrant the highest level of security, yes?

As someone said, voting is so important, it shouldn't be entrusted to the voters. They were being ironic, I think, but it's a point worth taking, if you're talking about good governance, adding more votes to the equation is unlikely to get you there unless you believe in some pretty antique 18th century ideals that were proven wrong quite conclusively by the end of the 19th and dead and buried by the 20th, although we still wage war in the name of this toxic doctrine we call "democracy," people still celebrate it and we teach our kids it's the foundation of freedom, maybe best of all it's a source of great entertainment every few years.

Voting isn't important. In fact, for the purposes of good government and such, it's probably a net negative as it deceives a large number of politically engaged voters into believing that they're doing something. Making voting easier will only hasten the transition to the Kardashian administration.
 
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Personally I like the various dongles I've used in the past for security checks, they were too cumbersome for the banking community as they required a separated piece of hardware beyond the chipped card.

Computer security isn't the issue and has never been the issue in this debate it has been the issue of obfuscation. Voting electronically makes perfect sense it's safer, cheaper, faster and allows more freedom for us the voter, we are electing (hiring) so we can change how to hire when we want. just getting past the long winded obfuscation may take us some time and we need a real social media champion to make it so.

We need to hire people that can get thing done not debaters, not now, we are behind because we let the silly people take over and we are in the shit. The people (all of us) need to take control of their (our) governments back and fix the mess.
 
And that would be our point of departure.

Our current style of politics, watch the Kennedy/Nixon debate (e.g., it's on YouTube) or any of the talks between Buckley and Vidal (they are too, and I'm not referring to the notorious sock-you-in-the-jaw incident) and compare them to anything that gets on TV.

These are a result of politicians playing to the lowest common denominator.

Involve the Internet, easier voting, Social media, etc. and you just pander more to the commond denominator.

Not to wear out the joke, but, as I said, paving the way for the Kardashian administration. Really, I would be shocked if one of them (or, Heaven forefend, Kanye West) runs for office. And quite possibly wins. Because most of the electorate are morons. That's not healthy democracy because it's not a healthy population of a spiritually healthy nation.

Even if our democracy was once purer and more mature, it is still still a doctrine and a form of government that is doomed to the exact sort of failure we've experienced since. Plato knew this thousands of years ago. Greco-Roman society experienced it.

Mussoloni & Gentile again (Doctrine, 1932, supra) call for cooperative action as one body "felt throughout the length and breadth of the country by means of its corporative, social, and educational institutions, and all the political, economic, and spiritual forces of the nation, organized in their respective associations … a State based on millions of individuals who recognize its authority, feel its action, and are ready to serve its ends[,] not the tyrannical state of a mediaeval lordling [nor having] anything in common with the despotic States existing prior to or subsequent to [the advent of liberal democracy in] 1789," which is seen as, and is, a form of tyranny equal to and preceding some of it's antecedents against which it rose in spirit of rebellion.

These are the lines of division along which we fight our bullshit two-party system, with the marked exception of the spiritual conception of the State, rather than individualistic voters electing individually appealing personalities, or persons or organizations based on various sorts of appeal, charisma, appeal and affiliation with groups (including metaphorical "tribes" like the "eleven nations of the US" mentioned above, or simply race or ethnicity or even religion) and organizations, their partisanship (as I've mentioned early, in the study American Politics, party affiliation is one of the most stable and heritable political variables for individual.)

Tear it all down. I'll repeat the same metaphor again. If we have 50% of the population voting, having the rest voting would be like arbitrarily doubling the metaphorical chemo dose for our metaphorically cancerous government. You will kill the patient. And the vast majority of the 50% of nonvoters are going to be even more toxic than the regular voters.

Does no one see how more voter participation can be a bad thing?

Look at this stuff from a realist point of view, and first of all forget everything you were taught in high school civics class; learn something about how this stuff really works. I studied for years planning on becoming a political operative or working for the C.I.A. or State Department, I wouldn't have passed their background checks, but could have had some job in the Republican party apparatus, no doubt, although through the years (still wanting the C.I.A., who talked to me 'at least' once) studied more and more about international relations, from a very hard-realist perspective, and I just directed the same at my own country, eventually, after choosing to discard that degree and career path in favor of something totally different (I'd already been taking all the prerequisites and such, to have something to fall back on, basically, something where I'd be guaranteed a job, and the possibility of having both credentials might have it's benefits in either field.)
 
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There are many ways. I'll start with the actual voting part. Several proposals are listed here https://crypto.stanford.edu/pbc/notes/crypto/voting.html.

But as for an example. We could generate a cryptographic key for each voter. The voter gets a private key that can only encrypt, the government keeps a public key that can decrypt it. This key would not be tied to the voter beyond initial generation. The voter uses the key to encrypt or sign some identifier that identifies the candidate. After the election, all the votes are decrypted and tabulated. The authority can ensure any votes with that key after the first one are discarded. As a result, we have all the votes, don't know who voted for whom, and can ensure that each key capable of voting was only handed to eligible voters. The private keys can be destroyed after the election ensuring that anonymity remains long after the election. There are many other options apart from this. I just came up with this one on the spot. It is absolutely doable. Using modern cryptography we can ensure that the electronic votes are unforgeable, anonymous, and publicly vetting. As good as if not better than paper voting. In practice we would probably provide voting machines for people to use, providing them with perhaps a smart card containing their key.

Multiple ways around this.

For example, the software can say it's signing the vote for one candidate, but actually sign the vote for the opposing candidate.

It could also be done online with peoples home computers. People can't be trusted to have a secure computer of course, but it could be done in theory. Perhaps you could provide a secure usb stick that enables you to boot into a secure environment on the home computer, using an internal physical tamperproof chip that contains the required cryptographic key to establish a secure authenticated connection to the voting server. Then we can make the home computer secure for the purpose of voting.

"Tamperproof" is a pretty tall order.
 
It's an impossible order, in digital computers, for all practical purposes. A dozen people or maybe even a hundred or stretching it a thousand who mutually know each other can use some rather esoteric protocols using asymmetric cryptography to cast a vote, but that involves an infrastructure of trust and a small scale, which simply aren't present in real elections.

Online voting is a joke, even in-person voting with voting machines we must remember the number of levels that modern computers are built on, with something going wrong on any of them, a malicious actor can easily manipulate results.

And if the outcome of allegedly "free and fair" elections matters to you,you should be with all your might protesting against anykind of electronic voting scheme whatsoever.

I, of course, think the fix is in well before any ballot is cast, at least in practical terms of where our country is going (i.e. circling the drain and being sucked dry by a parasitic rentier class.)
 
How sure are we that its not the inner Luddite opposing digital voting? We accept that paper votes aren't 100% tamper proof, why do we consider digital voting as needing to be 100% tamper proof? Do you think electronic voting is even worse than paper ballots?

My issue is more with the idea that more participation means better outcomes. I don't think this is so, I think universal democracy will cause different but equally troublesome problems.
 
Multiple ways around this.

For example, the software can say it's signing the vote for one candidate, but actually sign the vote for the opposing candidate.



"Tamperproof" is a pretty tall order.

That's why we make the voting live system open source and checksum verified. Then we know it hasn't been tempered with. Simply saying "it can't be done, it won't scale" without explaining why is not a legit counterpoint.
 
^ Naive. You're not looking at the extent of the possible threat vectors, which are basically innumerable, and not a person on Earth, I think, understands every layer of how a modern computer works, together, and how they interact. A lot of blind faith is involved. If you made me make a voting machine, like I said, I'd do it on a bare-metal much earlier processor (386 probably at the latest, maybe even something considerably older and less sophisticated, IIRC they had VAX and PDP-11 system-on-chips not too long ago, which are much simpler and more elegant, anyhow) from the ground up starting with homebrewed assembly language everything. Still, not enough against a determined adversary.

@Swilow,

Well, you and I are together on the idea that more participation won't mean better outcomes (and you, as an Australian, should know.) The tech stuff, though, I am an amateur, although I'd like to consider myself a fairly well-versed one, but many very respected names in the field of computer security, such as Bruce Schneier, who I linked to extensively a few posts back, are very opposed to electronic voting machines much less online voting, their opinion surely counts for more than mine; people who claim they can securely do it are probably trying to sell you something. At best, just trying to sell a voting machine, at worst, actively trying to rig elections; although I'd bet things usually are on the more innocuous former side; I'm not excessively paranoid about rigged elections, as I see the game as being rigged entirely anyway. But yes, electronic voting is substantially worse than paper ballots, because of the lack of the paper trail; and the possibility of an advanced attacker using various means to counter forensic measures to detect fraud as was discussed above, as well, simply discarding paper ballots is a lot more obvious than tampering with a computer, especially if you have access to the computers on a wide scale, which would be the case in any (God forbid) election-via-internet scheme or even electronic voting machine system. It's not just Ludditism, the size of the threat space is much, much larger doing things digitally. As I've pointed out before, you can mathematically prove that you have cryptographic protocols that ensure a good vote, but that means nothing if the underlying software and hardware has vulneraiblities, which all software and hardware does, being that it's created by very fallible human beings. I've done my share of coding, although mostly a long time ago, at a much lower level (assembly language and C in DOS or bare metal or on much simpler Linux systems than we have today), stuff is so complex now as to basically be unfathomable to one or even a reasonable group of human beings, all the ways that the various software and hardware components interact, and all the potential threat vectors, they're innumerable. Electronic voting is a terrible idea. Extending the franchise is a terrible idea. Voting, period, is a terrible idea, IMO, but I'm more or less an orthodox Fascist in a lot of my political thinking, so maybe take that as you will.
 
Sort of like a Clipper chip? That worked out well. As soon as it goes tamperproof (which of course isn't "tamper proof," estimates in 1994 of what it would take to reverse one were in the $100,000-$1 million range), out with tamperproof goes verifiability. As I said before, then nationwide PKI is troubling; the user should be able to generate his own key, but protocols allowing that don't scale if they allow for any sort of verification of eligibility and don't do well with eliminating the problem of dual-voting. A lot of very clever protocols have been invented, but the really clever ones, the ones that come close to solving all of the desiderata, don't scale.

WHY don't they scale. The user COULD generate their own private key, and it could be verified prior to voting. We only need it to be tamperproof to the point of securing the private key. Which we can. An attacker would have to break as many keys as there are voters. It wouldn't be feasable.

It could be the 386 running Linux, it could be something equally antiquated, another architecture than Intel is actually probably preferable, running something custom made that I could quite easily hack up in assembly language and C on bare metal in a few days of sustained work and then months of debugging; the point is for it to be small and easily understood to lower the attack space, and for it to be airgapped and to both take in and receive read-only memory. The rest doesn't really matter. MS-DOS is fine too. A $20 Raspberry Pi which I think is open hardware too is fine. I would be absolutely fine with a 386 or even worse running DOS (i.e. bare metal with some built in calls and hooks which might actually better than Linux in this case) for the purposes of doing any encryption, as long as I could read and burn CDs, or otherwise securely and unidirectionally transfer information (although interpreting this information once in unsafe space again is a problem.) I'm primarily just talking about airgapping, and also on the fact that old systems are reliable and well-known (hence the example of old, elegantly-designed guns with few moving parts; you could add the 1911) whereas systems we have these days are so complex and layered nobody really understands them and all the layers; let alone once you connect them to the Internet (even with whatever firewalls, proxies, etc. or other measures you can imagine.) This is the sort of thing that I would use if I was involved in serious criminal or political activity, and the absolute minimum of what I'd want to see in terms of securing voting machines, I consider voting from home to be impossible to secure and also extremely undesirable as it makings voting easier.

Yes, with more complexity more room for mistakes exist. But what I said is still true, which is that using an old linux distro is not very secure at all. Given all the vulnerabilities that have been found in that time.

But if voting were to be done over the wire, and yes, thank God you're not talking about a web server, we use them for way too much (remember the original online banking systems which were actually more or less built up from the ground up, or at least coded from the ground up? Few people will, they didn't see a lot of use, because they were too hard." They kept waiting in line and balancing their checkbooks. Eventually the bankers did some cost/benefit analysis and realized that maybe online banking as, more or less, we have it now wouldn't be so bad, and even handling of quite large, e.g. trading portfolios, and it's, effectively, not, see below. One thing it it did do is put a bunch of people out of work, but computers did that in general, and that was pretty much inevitable, so I can't really lay that one at their feet except that they were thinking economics over the security of the traditional way of doing this. Although, to tell the truth, in terms of physical security, online banking has probably mitigated some risks; why don't you really hear about bank robbing much anymore? It's definitely still going on. But in almost every case, the take is pissant stuff, >$10k,; the smart money in strong-arming is in robbing small pharmacies but then you have to take a dual-proficiency in drug dealing like half this forum, or, for more the skilled professional thief, high end jewelry stores and such. Who often don't like to advertise the fact and are well insured. No, none of this is like in the movies, just like hacking, of banks or anything else, is.)

But the very idea of voting from home over the Internet is a terrifying one. Everything I was writing about was about voting machines.

On two accounts; (1)—it will mean that no election, ever, can be trusted again; and (2)—it will mean that more people will vote, just like more people started banking online; I outlined in my previous lengthy post about why this is bad.

If more people voting is a bad thing, why have democracy at all. And no, the election could still be trusted, because after the election we can go back and see the recepts of keys being issued to voters. We won't obviously know which voter it was, but that it was a legit voter. And then we can verify that key was used to cast a vote, and sure, like with paper ballots some votes could be fraudulant, but with the methods ive suggested or several others we can be sure that there's no way for one individual or group to get ahold of a significant number of the private keys because at no point were they ever held together.

The vote may be cast over the internet, but it would be done of a secure connection to a certificate authenticated server, and only from a secured live environment using the methods I suggested. But this is still getting ahead of ourselves. My initial point was just about electronic voting, I went on to say you could safely do if online too, but initially that's not what I was talking about.

It doesn't have to be flawless to be better than paper voting.

Online banking these days is very secure. And it doesn't have nearly as much security on the users side as I'm suggesting. People just log on to their banks website. Sure there is authentication, but the users don't even look and see if the sites certificate has passed the chain of trust up to the issuing CA. And they ignore the warnings in part because so many crap websites don't set up their certificates properly so people see those warnings on legit sites too. And get still there is no large scale bank theft accomplished via MITM attacks between the user and the banking server.

I've still yet to hear a concrete reason why evoting can't be made secure with the various options available. Just vague fears lacking any specific details.
 
^ Naive. You're not looking at the extent of the possible threat vectors, which are basically innumerable, and not a person on Earth, I think, understands every layer of how a modern computer works, together, and how they interact. A lot of blind faith is involved. If you made me make a voting machine, like I said, I'd do it on a bare-metal much earlier processor (386 probably at the latest, maybe even something considerably older and less sophisticated, IIRC they had VAX and PDP-11 system-on-chips not too long ago, which are much simpler and more elegant, anyhow) from the ground up starting with homebrewed assembly language everything. Still, not enough against a determined adversary.

@Swilow,

Well, you and I are together on the idea that more participation won't mean better outcomes (and you, as an Australian, should know.) The tech stuff, though, I am an amateur, although I'd like to consider myself a fairly well-versed one, but many very respected names in the field of computer security, such as Bruce Schneier, who I linked to extensively a few posts back, are very opposed to electronic voting machines much less online voting, their opinion surely counts for more than mine; people who claim they can securely do it are probably trying to sell you something. At best, just trying to sell a voting machine, at worst, actively trying to rig elections; although I'd bet things usually are on the more innocuous former side; I'm not excessively paranoid about rigged elections, as I see the game as being rigged entirely anyway. But yes, electronic voting is substantially worse than paper ballots, because of the lack of the paper trail; and the possibility of an advanced attacker using various means to counter forensic measures to detect fraud as was discussed above, as well, simply discarding paper ballots is a lot more obvious than tampering with a computer, especially if you have access to the computers on a wide scale, which would be the case in any (God forbid) election-via-internet scheme or even electronic voting machine system. It's not just Ludditism, the size of the threat space is much, much larger doing things digitally. As I've pointed out before, you can mathematically prove that you have cryptographic protocols that ensure a good vote, but that means nothing if the underlying software and hardware has vulneraiblities, which all software and hardware does, being that it's created by very fallible human beings. I've done my share of coding, although mostly a long time ago, at a much lower level (assembly language and C in DOS or bare metal or on much simpler Linux systems than we have today), stuff is so complex now as to basically be unfathomable to one or even a reasonable group of human beings, all the ways that the various software and hardware components interact, and all the potential threat vectors, they're innumerable. Electronic voting is a terrible idea. Extending the franchise is a terrible idea. Voting, period, is a terrible idea, IMO, but I'm more or less an orthodox Fascist in a lot of my political thinking, so maybe take that as you will.

There would be a digital paper trail. And we don't have to secure every last aspect of it. From the side of the server we just need to ensure that it doesn't respond to anything except what it's supposed to, and in a secured physical environment. That is human manageable. As for the user side. Doing it in asm from the ground up is overkill, with vetted kernel, an environment hand crafted for the purpose, and locked down in the ways I said. After which we offer money to anyone who can break it. That is sufficient to ensure it is safe for the user side. Obviously neither I not anyone else can defend a claim that is based on the existence of unknown, impossible to quantify vulnerabilities that can't be described or quantified, yet supposedly exist.

If you take away all the possible ways for arbitrary input to be processed in any unknown way, you take away that entire vector as a risk. And as I said, we don't have to make it impossible for one vote to be tampered with, just for it to be impossible to tamper with lots of them.
 
There have been a lot of good ideas popping out here. When you consider simply changing the method of voting it shouldn't take more than a minute to see the current method is designed to discourage voting not encourage it.

For the first time in recorded history we have instant world wide communications, we haven't ever had a chance to make this work before. I see it as inventing food replicators that run on sunshine but not letting people use them because we fear they'll forget how to cook.

There are a few notions we should add to the table as well. Public control of the government and taking 100% of critical decision making away from the few will take longer to do right. Voting, we could just do now with a tiny window of abuse, one that would be no bigger than the current abuse. We'd still save money, time and encourage public involvement.

Moving beyond voting into public control of government is obviously coming. The unsatisfactory conditions world wide need to be addressed and not with yet another killing spree. This may be the last generation where the west has an opportunity to cease world meddling and start repairing the damage the has been done. If we don't start a serious move away from capitalism we will drain the world and kill ourselves off.

I think initially we need to provide simply polling numbers on issues publicly. We all need to see that only 10% of us want to spend on new civic projects etc. Over time voting for X and getting Y will become a thing of the past.

Decentralized control and empowering the population has never been done and global communications never existed, this is new territory, we can write a future that has our children in mind. (well yours, I'm gay so I have no horse in this race). We do need to provide some kind of hope for those that come behind us. My generation has greedily burned through all the easy energy and made nothing of lasting value while stripping the planet. I don't just see us stopping this but reversing it. To do it we need to take control of our governments and give up money. If we can accomplish those two goals we can redirect our world focus from survival of my tribe to advancement of the race.

We need to build mega projects and our current social economic system fails to advance. We have the resourses, technology and unworking labour to change life for everyone, we need a motivated public and leadership that has vision for the world's future.
 
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