The UK in the EU: "Brexit"

[ColonelPanic]

^^ Yep, for me the whole Turkey joining the EU is the scariest issue at the moment. And the hypocrisy with fighting IS, while NATO members are actively supporting them has me wondering how the fuck can people be so stupid/ignorant.

I think Turkey has crossed the line as it were. It's time to start pressuring our respective governments to pledge to no longer be blackmailed by Erdogan. If Turkey is unwilling to work with EU or says something stupid and threatening like "We will go your way, you go yours" then we should do the honorable thing, abandon the delusion of Turkey being a European state, back the Kurdish forces who, without Turkey's cooperation are our only hope on the ground. Then use NATO to occupy Istanbul and give it city-state status. Keep it under NATO guardianship until elections and parties can be formed and let them decide their own fate. Istanbul is the 10% o Turkey that actually lies on the European continent and the softly-softly approach has been a disaster for regional stability. Authoritarian states and Tyrants like Erdogan, whose negotiating tactics amount to blackmail and who are, for all intents and purposes, at war with our Kurdish allies needs to be bought under control. I think it's fair to say he's lost legitimacy as leader, his own head of state has resigned and been very clear about his reasons for doing so. The Kurdish bloodbath will spill over and push the already teetering county over the edge. The beginnings of open revolt leading to civil war are there; in that case Turkey will have rebels, the Kurds and IS to contend with. That's assuming its other regional enemies don't intervene. Frankly the Kurds deserve their own state ans homeland. They were promised as much at the end of WWI. We let Turkey dictate terms then. No more.

 

[manboychef]

I think Turkey has crossed the line as it were. It's time to start pressuring our respective governments to pledge to no longer be blackmailed by Erdogan. If Turkey is unwilling to work with EU or says something stupid and threatening like "We will go your way, you go yours" then we should do the honorable thing, abandon the delusion of Turkey being a European state, back the Kurdish forces who, without Turkey's cooperation are our only hope on the ground. Then use NATO to occupy Istanbul and give it city-state status. Keep it under NATO guardianship until elections and parties can be formed and let them decide their own fate. Istanbul is the 10% o Turkey that actually lies on the European continent and the softly-softly approach has been a disaster for regional stability. Authoritarian states and Tyrants like Erdogan, whose negotiating tactics amount to blackmail and who are, for all intents and purposes, at war with our Kurdish allies needs to be bought under control. I think it's fair to say he's lost legitimacy as leader, his own head of state has resigned and been very clear about his reasons for doing so. The Kurdish bloodbath will spill over and push the already teetering county over the edge. The beginnings of open revolt leading to civil war are there; in that case Turkey will have rebels, the Kurds and IS to contend with. That's assuming its other regional enemies don't intervene. Frankly the Kurds deserve their own state ans homeland. They were promised as much at the end of WWI. We let Turkey dictate terms then. No more.

The kurds do deserve their own homeland. I am sure they can govern themselves better than any state in the middle east as it is.

 

[Deleted member 210577]

The Spectator Debate: Should Britain leave the EU?
28th April 2016

Dan Hannan, Nigel Farage and Kate Hoey make their case for Brexit. Whilst Nick Clegg, Liz Kendall and Chuka Umunna argue that Britain is better off remaining a part of the European Union. Andrew Neil chairs.

 

[Dracarys]

I'm not that worried about britain leaving the EU. I'm worried about the next step, wich is leaving the european human rights treaty. That's the real conservative agenda. Look at how Boris managed to fuck-up London. He basically ran London like it's a sort of real-estate ponzi-scheme instead of a city where people actually live. These conservatives ideologically believe in a 19th century class society where people know their place. They want Britain to be as idyllic again, as it was in Dickens books. You know, with the homeless childeren an stuff. And they've come a long way. What better way to let the masses dig their own grave and give up their human rights in turn for some imaginary sovereignty.

 

[tambourine-man]

I will be voting 'leave'.

I sympathise with the perspective that all other considerations are secondary to the issue of sovereignty. I cannot overlook the fact that laws and regulations are being made by a foreign body that we have little control over. Although the UK Government may have some influence in the creation of these laws, the supremacy of EU law over UK law (and the consequential relative lack of scrutiny exercised in Parliament over it) makes my bones chill.

The right of repeal or the ability to punish the creators of poor law through the ballot box simply does not exist in the direct form one would expect. The link between the legislature and the people is being slowly broken and I cannot in good conscience vote for a continuation of it. The encroachment of sovereignty has left us effectively voting for harangued middle managers who presume to behave like leaders, yet admittedly lack the constitutional power to act accordingly. This is a dangerous precedent when combined with a supra-national power that is beyond our electoral reach.

It's a crude rule of thumb, but the further power moves from the people - both bureaucratically and geographically - the more corrupt it will become. The EU is an embodiment of that tendency for remote and highly centralised power to become unaccountable and, sadly, anti-democratic. Power is best concentrated in smaller, more localised blocks with highly visible accountability. This seems to me to be fairly self-evident.

Finance... there isn't a person on the face of the planet who knows what will happen post-Brexit. Just people with vested interests. As such, the financial argument is largely a score-draw for me. I suspect we'll be fine and even if it turns into a net loss, the cost of sovereignty is difficult to quantify. The stories of economic catastrophe and the entirety of Europe suddenly turning their backs on the huge British market are, however, somewhat humorous to listen to. It's also weird to hear so many people who have traditionally bashed bankers, suddenly worried about the bankers leaving us. Funny old world when it comes to money.

Security... I have deep and grave concerns about the reckless behaviour of the EU in the Ukraine and naive approach to dealing with Russia. It worries me greatly that these people are openly wanting to develop a European army (God help us) and want to pursue their own foreign policy agenda. Christ, we can barely control and make accountable our own halfwits from their foreign adventures, what chance would we ever have of curtailing the ambitions of these unassailable and ideologically-driven numpties?

The complete Horlicks of the migrant crisis sums up the EU shit-show for me. The decision to advocate for a no questions refugee status - expanding the scope so broad that it ensured a complete inability to handle the ensuing deluge - was a complete disgrace. The EU works along the 'community method'... except when German unilateralism sees fit to do otherwise. And now some disgusting back room deal with Turkey to traffic them back, while Greece remains Europe's waiting room. And all for the low, low price of your ethical compass and the risk of yet more Eastwards expansion on Russia's doorstep. These people are not leaders.

To say that we should persist with this situation in the hope of somehow reforming it from within seems incredibly optimistic - bordering on a weird and uncharacteristic sympathy towards politicians that I find disappointing, especially given the more radical bent of some posters on BL. This is not an optimism based on hope, it's one based on absolute ideological desperation. Nobody in the UK is offering anything ideologically attractive, but nothing about the EU's behaviour or historical motivations gives any indication that truly democratic reform is even a remote possibility, and certainly not a desirable means of delivering 'the project'.

We are, I fear, experiencing the final stages of a slow-motion car crash of our constitution. The impact of Heath's decision hasn't quite registered because we're too busy looking at the people waiting in the slow lane at Passport control.

 

[quiet roar]

^^ Good summary.

 

[Deleted member 210577]

I sympathise with the perspective that all other considerations are secondary to the issue of sovereignty

Absolutely. There is no 'debate' to be had if you really grasp this simple point. All other issues are secondary to that of sovereignty, because sovereignty has a direct relationship with power.

Finance... there isn't a person on the face of the planet who knows what will happen post-Brexit. Just people with vested interests. As such, the financial argument is largely a score-draw for me.

All the big players said the same thing about us not joining the Euro currency. That we would be a poverty stricken basket case. 100% wrong.. and not one of them predicted the 2008 crash either.. which shows that virtually no one knows what the fuck the economy will do.

The complete Horlicks of the migrant crisis sums up the EU shit-show for me. The decision to advocate for a no questions refugee status - expanding the scope so broad that it ensured a complete inability to handle the ensuing deluge - was a complete disgrace.

Damn straight.

To say that we should persist with this situation in the hope of somehow reforming it from within seems incredibly optimistic - bordering on a weird and uncharacteristic sympathy towards politicians that I find disappointing, especially given the more radical bent of some posters on BL. This is not an optimism based on hope, it's one based on absolute ideological desperation.

There is no reform. It's not optimistic.. it's delusional, and shows lack of understanding of what the EU is really about.

 

[TAVOR]

Have been studying in the UK since 2012, I really hope Britain leaves the EU, but I seriously doubt it'll happen.

If Britain leaves the EU, I believe it will have a domino effect and other anti-EU parties would also start pushing for referendums on the exit from the Union.
The EU is a great idea theoretically, but the reality is that its a complex bureaucratic disaster.

 

[Deleted member 210577]

Amazing passionate video on this moment of truth referendum. Bang on commentary!

 

[quiet roar]

Bookies still have "Bremain" as favourite, I believe. It will be bloody close, I reckon.

 

[Deleted member 210577]

Bookies still have "Bremain" as favourite, I believe. It will be bloody close, I reckon.

I don't know.. I think a lot of people are keeping schtum about their intentions to vote out, because it carries a certain (false) social connotation. Also, I don't think the remain side has half the passion or belief the leave side has.. when it comes down to it I think a lot of remain people won't even bother to vote, whereas the leave side will absolutely (because they actually understand what this vote entails!).

 

[Deleted member 210577]

Mr Slippery. EU: In or Out?

 

[Deleted member 210577]

Michael Gove. EU: In or Out?

 

[malakaix]

Bookies still have "Bremain" as favourite, I believe. It will be bloody close, I reckon.

I imagine this is because of past experience, for example the Scottish Independence Vote which had phone/online polls at 50% chance of leaving in the final weeks ended up been less then 45% of the actual vote.

 

[Vagina Lover]

I wonder what effect this would have on EU members of the Commonwealth like Malta should it occur.

 

[Blue_Phlame]

Who won between Farage and Cameron?

I liked Farage.

 

[Shimmer.Fade]

Who won between Farage and Cameron?

I liked Farage.

I would expect no less from someone currently in the US. The US (and Russia, India, and China) will benefit from a Brexit in the long run. I told a good friend of mine around 7 or 8 years ago that the US was starting to worry more about the EU as a threat than previously, and was beginning to enact policy and lube propaganda machines designed to undercut EU influence. US doesn't like being number 2 in anything, and will do anything to dominate. Being an American I am not opposed to this necessarily (the at all costs mentality is sometimes disturbing, but is necessary to show how far we will go when pushed).

The Brits should look around at the bigger picture, and realize that those invested in pushing a Brexit are not doing it for the UK or any bullshit idea of sovereignty, but rather to strengthen interests from outside the UK and Europe. The UK lost its sovereignty the moment its navy couldn't secure the oceans, and the UK is much too small to ever get it back. The UK has some amount of say within the EU, and will have absolutely no say in anything once outside of the EU.

Personally, I would like to see a Brexit simply to have another source of data further demonstrating how democracy is a poor form of government. If a Brexit were to go through, I would feel sorry for the people who will suffer from another poor decision made by the brainwashed and/or under-educated masses. I hope that one day technocrats (people trained in natural/hard sciences) can use the cluster fuck caused by democracy as an example for a truly correct way to lead the ignorant in order to benefit humanity as a whole.

Some people should ask themselves what qualifications they have to be making decisions which will impact our collective future. Going further, why should career politicians (i.e. people whose job it is to regurgitate what they are told without thinking), bankers, and businessmen be making decisions which will negatively (based on their philosophy of profit first, everything else second) impact our collective future?

Anyhow, anyway, if someone doesn't understand what is going on they probably shouldn't even be voting. From what I read, few average people understand the situation, and outside of the political circus their opinion would normally be invalid.

 

[spacejunk]

^ top post.

 

[Deleted member 210577]

I hope that one day technocrats (people trained in natural/hard sciences) can use the cluster fuck caused by democracy as an example for a truly correct way to lead the ignorant in order to benefit humanity as a whole.

Well that doesn't sound like a total fucking nightmare scenario. I just love the implied assertion that well trained robots can somehow lead less well trained robots to a better outcome, when neither have the slightest clue what is really going on and how we should be playing the game of life. And before you say it, no, science does not have it all figured out, and yes, I think atheists are fools.

 

[MMT]

I would expect no less from someone currently in the US. The US (and Russia, India, and China) will benefit from a Brexit in the long run. I told a good friend of mine around 7 or 8 years ago that the US was starting to worry more about the EU as a threat than previously, and was beginning to enact policy and lube propaganda machines designed to undercut EU influence. US doesn't like being number 2 in anything, and will do anything to dominate. Being an American I am not opposed to this necessarily (the at all costs mentality is sometimes disturbing, but is necessary to show how far we will go when pushed).

The Brits should look around at the bigger picture, and realize that those invested in pushing a Brexit are not doing it for the UK or any bullshit idea of sovereignty, but rather to strengthen interests from outside the UK and Europe. The UK lost its sovereignty the moment its navy couldn't secure the oceans, and the UK is much too small to ever get it back. The UK has some amount of say within the EU, and will have absolutely no say in anything once outside of the EU.

Personally, I would like to see a Brexit simply to have another source of data further demonstrating how democracy is a poor form of government. If a Brexit were to go through, I would feel sorry for the people who will suffer from another poor decision made by the brainwashed and/or under-educated masses. I hope that one day technocrats (people trained in natural/hard sciences) can use the cluster fuck caused by democracy as an example for a truly correct way to lead the ignorant in order to benefit humanity as a whole.

Some people should ask themselves what qualifications they have to be making decisions which will impact our collective future. Going further, why should career politicians (i.e. people whose job it is to regurgitate what they are told without thinking), bankers, and businessmen be making decisions which will negatively (based on their philosophy of profit first, everything else second) impact our collective future?

Anyhow, anyway, if someone doesn't understand what is going on they probably shouldn't even be voting. From what I read, few average people understand the situation, and outside of the political circus their opinion would normally be invalid.

So what,as long as the trains run on time fuck the 99% ? That suggests that Hitler was ahead of his time.