71 dead found in a truck abandoned in Austria

[swilow]

It doesn't seem that any conservatives are willing to come up with a solution to this. If people are advocating these asylum seekers be forcibly returned home, that is facist garbage and cruel/evil. Wishing for people to be indefinitely deterred in detention camps is also cruel. The only correct response would be for destination countries to actively transport asylum seekers to a safe country. This way, destination countries will be able to quantify the amount of refugees in their country and may enable officials to catch the possible small percentage of extremists who may also me migrating.

I don't believe in simply opening borders, and I'm not sure anyone does. I am for taking responsibility and doing your duty. It seems the right is paralysed by fear; which is good, because it allows those with the correct ideas to do the actual hard work here and hopefully achieve a good outcome for all.

I love multiculturalism myself. My closest friends are Italian and Puerto Rican. I work with people from Burma, India, Pakistan, Germany, Turkey, Malaysia, Zimbabwe... From my perspective, the more diversity, the more I appreciate it. Obviously, many do not feel that way and wish only to see white faces. Too fucking bad :D

I can not believe anyone at this point still wants to welcome these people into our nations.

Well, you better believe it. I would welcome people to my community. They are just desperate humans, and desperate humans can act like fucks. You seem to be frightened of them though, so perhaps that clip seems like something different to you then to me. I don't like that sort of mod mentality, but I totally understand it. What do you think these people are going to do- flee back to fucking ISIS because of some razor wire and policemen? Would you?

Your clip portrayed a tiny proportion of people. You should not use that to make judgments on the whole. Doing so reveals a strong and irrational bias. But, no-one seems to address that point, that imagining the disastrous future doesn't mean a thing.

But, the point isn't about what we want. No-one wants this situation to be occurring. But the solution is about doing our legal and ethical duty. I simply cannot accept that affluent countries, which must bear some responsibility for this crisis, are unwilling to assist people. It is unethical and illegal. It is the wrong way to treat people.

 

[Deleted member 210577]

It doesn't seem that any conservatives are willing to come up with a solution to this. If people are advocating these asylum seekers be forcibly returned home, that is facist garbage and cruel/evil. Wishing for people to be indefinitely deterred in detention camps is also cruel. The only correct response would be for destination countries to actively transport asylum seekers to a safe country. This way, destination countries will be able to quantify the amount of refugees in their country and may enable officials to catch the possible small percentage of extremists who may also me migrating.

Actually.. UKIP leader Nigel Farage said MONTHS ago that what is needed are camps in Turkey and adjoining nations where refugees can be formally processed and documented properly, and then helped on to other nations. In conjunction with stopping the boats/smugglers. Now thanks to Merkel (stupid daft bint, jesus christ..) who said "Hey! Everyone! Come on over!" we have thousands of people marching across Europe. They have to be processed somewhere properly. If that's in Serbia, Croatia, or whereever they are now, then they should be processed there.. in conjunction with stopping further migratory waves by toughing up borders of the EU nations. The message needs to be sent that people can't just march as they please and demand sanctuary in a far away nation.. that is not how we do things civilized society.

How those EU nations do it is up to them. Thankfully the UK is an island. We may have to deploy the army at Calais at some point, with the front line being police.. we don't need to shoot, just send a clear message that you can't turn up like this and be a dickhead.

I don't believe in simply opening borders, and I'm not sure anyone does. I am for taking responsibility and doing your duty. It seems the right is paralysed by fear; which is good, because it allows those with the correct ideas to do the actual hard work here and hopefully achieve a good outcome for all.

Sorry Willow but this response shows your thinking, and I reject it completely. First, we do our duty already, through the formal channels. We do our bit. Highlighted in bold.. people who think in that way are a far greater danger to nations that any right wing person will ever be. You really should examine your head if you genuinely think like that, which I know a lot of people on the left do.. you see the right wing as heartless or racists bastards.. if only we did things your way we'd all live in peace. Dangerous thinking Willow.

I love multiculturalism myself. My closest friends are Italian and Puerto Rican. I work with people from Burma, India, Pakistan, Germany, Turkey, Malaysia, Zimbabwe... From my perspective, the more diversity, the more I appreciate it. Obviously, many do not feel that way and wish only to see white faces. Too fucking bad :D

Again.. this post just highlights the issue with your thinking more than anything. "I love..", "Too bad". It's alright for you in your social sphere.. but that is not what multiculturalism is about. I love people from anywhere too. Most people do. That has nothing to do with multiculturalism at all. If you actually understand what multiculturalism means, and what it means for the future of nations, you would not support it for the simple fact that it does not work when taken to excess. Which it has been in the UK.

Actually what you love is your hatred for those who hold conservative opinions, which is typical of the left. Got to stick it to the man, and all that.

Well, you better believe it. I would welcome people to my community. They are just desperate humans, and desperate humans can act like fucks. You seem to be frightened of them though, so perhaps that clip seems like something different to you then to me. I don't like that sort of mod mentality, but I totally understand it. What do you think these people are going to do- flee back to fucking ISIS because of some razor wire and policemen? Would you?

Your clip portrayed a tiny proportion of people. You should not use that to make judgments on the whole. Doing so reveals a strong and irrational bias. But, no-one seems to address that point, that imagining the disastrous future doesn't mean a thing.

But, the point isn't about what we want. No-one wants this situation to be occurring. But the solution is about doing our legal and ethical duty. I simply cannot accept that affluent countries, which must bear some responsibility for this crisis, are unwilling to assist people. It is unethical and illegal. It is the wrong way to treat people.

Sorry but we are under no obligation to give a fuck. I don't, not when I can see my nations future, its culture, and that of my European brothers coming under threat. Which it is. You simply can not integrate this many people all at once, it just does not work. Especially with those who push Islam. You can pretend their isn't a problem but there is.. you only need visit one of many areas in the UK, or France, or other EU nations which have become ghetto Islamic areas where hatred is allowed to fester to see the consequences. And it will get worse as the % demographic shifts in their favor.

Don't talk to me about legal and ethical duty. I have a duty to pass on this nation to my children, and their children, in a better state than what I had. That will be impossible in this scenario. If its a choice between my children and those of a foreign culturally incompatible one, one that will sell my children down the river if they got the chance.. sorry, FUCK THAT and fuck these people. You can pretend they won't, but they fucking will. There is no moderate Islam, period. The "peaceful" Muslims my country are failing to do their bit and root out the bullshit.. and they fail because when it comes down to it, they care ultimately more about Islam than the UK itself. That's just how it is.

If we were talking about Indians, Chinese, Russians, or some other nation.. we could do it. It would still cause problems, but we could manage it. This situation will not work though. That is not being "Islamophobic".. it is a rational concern about a very dangerous situation that could completely fuck up Europe. No one wants to see war on this continent again, but this situation could well end up pissing just enough people off to cause a serious problem. As I said, you can't fight self-preservation.. sooner or later even the peaceful left will snap if pushed hard enough. Don't think for one second you are excluded from that.

^ fwiw, when i see stuff like this, i have a problem with it: Rioting Migrants - Watch African Refugees Destroy Southern Europe (assuming that the video is what it says it is).

i think the problem is that you seem to assume that 100% of refugees behave this way and, thus, they should all be repelled. i think it's a mistake to make that assumption (as much of a mistake as it would be to assume the opposite).

Ah.. the issue is you believe I believe I assume 100% of refugees to be like that. On the contrary. Well firstly, what we're talking about are migrants crossing several nations.. they are no longer refugees, but migrants. Second, I know there are genuine people in need.. but forcing your way through several nations to reach nations with free economic handouts.. I can not sympathize with that. That is not seeking refuge, that is greed. I get it, these people want a better life, I am not without compassion.. but on the same token you can't open your heart to everyone because you'll be bled dry. That is the cold truth.

My issue with this migration wave also stems from the lack of civility, and I just do not trust them. If we were talking about a European migration wave within Europe, I would have less of an issue. Cultural compatibility is important. Call me judgemental or racist, I can not help how I feel on this. European and Middle Eastern countries are a world apart in terms of culture and mental state.. when I watch videos of them moving and talking they are not on the same wavelength as Europeans; you can the difference visually through their mannerisms and actions.

 

[RedWhiteNTrue]

^ fwiw, when i see stuff like this, i have a problem with it: Rioting Migrants - Watch African Refugees Destroy Southern Europe (assuming that the video is what it says it is).

i think the problem is that you seem to assume that 100% of refugees behave this way and, thus, they should all be repelled. i think it's a mistake to make that assumption (as much of a mistake as it would be to assume the opposite).

alasdair

No one said 100% of migrants behave this way. This is your go-to strawman.

I mentioned that Denmark (or maybe Norway) gave asylum to a Nigerian terrorist and the response was well the other 4,000 people granted asylum by them weren't terrorists.

We don't know who we are allowing into these countries at all. Many are without documentation as to their country or origin or their name, ect. Its esentially a Pandora's Box being unleashed across Europe.

Why do I have to have my passport checked when traveling to Canada or Mexico? Questions about nature and duration of my visit. But here their should be no questions, just open up the border, give them housing and food indefinitely and whenever one kills a European resident just write it off as an anamoly, a singular attack.

 

[nuttynutskin]

I think it's a real problem. I'm not sure what the solution is at this point tho other than depopulation. Too many fucking people on earth.

 

[What 23]

I love multiculturalism myself. My closest friends are Italian and Puerto Rican. I work with people from Burma, India, Pakistan, Germany, Turkey, Malaysia, Zimbabwe... From my perspective, the more diversity, the more I appreciate it. Obviously, many do not feel that way and wish only to see white faces. Too fucking bad

How long will "he" or "she" be from Burma, India, Pakistan, Germany, Turkey? What you want is the destruction of this diversity. What you get is yours first replaced with these, and mixes of/with these (and further, a more unequal mix, with your own less and less represented, but who cares right? diversity rules!).

I wish there to be a place where yes, I will mainly see white faces (same with other regions, I want to see separation with distance, and diversity, at least to some level). But it seems the entire white world is on track to get "enriched".

I'm not exactly sure what is supposed to be happening in this image.

 

[alasdairm]

No one said 100% of migrants behave this way.

go back and read ss' posts numbers 394, 396, 399 and especially 402. it's full of ridiculous generalisations which imply if not flat out say that 'they' are all as bad.

i mean he posts stuff like this: "There is no moderate Islam, period." there are about 1.5 billion muslims in the world and they're all extremists?

that's not 'telling it like it is'. that's not 'brutal honesty'. it's bigotry.

alasdair

 

[What 23]

yes, they are. all religions are pretty extreme, but Islam is unique in it's interaction, and proposed interaction with the world. I have issues with Judaism, as well, as it basically teaches that a protected group are the slave-masters and the rest of the world are slaves, seemingly. That they are chosen and special and we are not. Honestly all of them are a bit whacky. But Islam is the only one that in any respect directly calls for it to take over the world as religion. And has rules specifically for dealing with others, which are barbaric. It is, with example of pretty much every Islamic country, one of the most intolerant of religions. It offers plenty of room for people to be assholes, and they tend to be, and all of these "moderate people" you speak of just kind of go along with it, or at least let it happen.

 

[cashfl0w_d0nkey]

Islam is unique in it's interaction, and proposed interaction with the world.

Perhaps, but let's try to talk about higher level stuff such as dealing with the extremists or migrants. "Islam is worse than Christianity" is a terrible topic for discussion, unless your only aim is to convince others that Muslims are bad.

 

[RedWhiteNTrue]

go back and read ss' posts numbers 394, 396, 399 and especially 402. it's full of ridiculous generalisations which miply if not flat out say that 'they' are all as bad.

i mean he posts stuff like this: "There is no moderate Islam, period." there are about 1.5 billion muslims in the world and they're all extremists?

that's not 'telling it like it is'. that's not 'brutal honesty'. it's bigotry.

alasdair

I reread post #402 and saw mostly practical solutions like processing centers in Turkey for migrants, ect.

Bigotry is intolerance toward's the views of others (thank you Websters Dictionary!) and when polls show a sizable number of Muslims in UK advocate for Sharia Law which entails stoning gays/Muslims who convert to death, giving women lashes for adultery after they are raped, and other barbaric practices. I suppose if I'm intolerant to that view, then I am indeed a bigot and most rational people should be bigots as well.

This is a quote from Anjem Choundry about Islam in the UK:

"“We are on Jihad Seekers Allowance, We take the Jizya (protection money paid to Muslims by non-Muslims) which is ours anyway. The normal situation is to take money from the Kafir (non-Muslim), isn’t it? So this is normal situation. They give us the money. You work, give us the money. Allah Akbar, we take the money. Hopefully there is no one from the DSS (Department of Social Security) listening. Ah, but you see people will say you are not working. But the normal situation is for you to take money from the Kuffar (non-Muslim) So we take Jihad Seeker’s Allowance.”"

As the Quaran states:

"“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued” (Qur’an 9:29). "

This was the same tax paid by Spaniards and southern Italians under Moorish rule, non-Muslims must pay to their Muslim overseers. Now it comes in the form of housing benefit, food, and clothing provided by European taxpayers.

 

[RedWhiteNTrue]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...edophile-abused-Asian-girls-shame-suffer.html

"Lawyers for Nasir, of Liversedge, West Yorkshire, argued at London's Criminal Appeal Court that his sentence had been unfairly inflated.
But their complaints were rejected by Mr Justice Walker, who said: 'The victims' fathers were concerned about the future marriage prospects for their daughters."


This is the UK. In 2015. I pinch myself, as if I might wake up myself from a bad dream or a Twilight Zone episode, but I guess this is reality. Europe is a modern day multicultural utopia.

 

[RedWhiteNTrue]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...n-police-shoot-dead-terrorist-officer-stabbed

Terror attack in Berlin today? I guess no one else watches the news?? Huh?

All I've seen is stories about Ahmed and his clock.

"This afternoon's savage assault in west Berlin was carried out by Rafik Mohamad Yousef - a member of a terror group linked to al-Qaeda.But it later emerged that German authorities sought to deport him after the trial concluded but were stopped by human rights rules as he could have faced the electric chair in Iraq.
Police were called after reports that a man was waving a knife about on a street in the Spandau district.
The man seriously injured a female officer, stabbing her in the neck above her protective uniform, before another officer shot the suspect four times, killing him.
The officer, who was also struck in the kidney by a stray bullet, was rushed to A&E where she underwent emergency surgery but she is now stable in intensive care. "

 

[drug_mentor]

They are several nations away from where they started, seeking to get to Germany, Sweden and the UK, specifically. They even chant those country names. Why? Because they know they will get the most freebies from those nations. Not only does that clearly make them economic migrants, but even deciding on where they would like to go.. the absolute nerve of these people to dictate that. Why should the public of the host nations be forced to cover the costs of these economic migrants? They are not my problem. If they go through the formal process and do it properly, that's alright, we have our system in place for that and we can control the numbers. But just opening the gates to everyone is a piss take, and potentially putting people of our nations at risk.

Just because refugees are looking to go to countries where they can have a comfortable life does not make them economic migrants somehow. Apathy towards the conditions of your host country are not a necessary requirement to qualify as a refugee, which is someone who is fleeing war and persecution. You can be a refugee and prefer Germany over Turkey, this is not being an economic migrant, it is common sense.

Refugees don't have to lodge a claim in the first country they set foot in, and if you look at the conditions in some of the refugee camps in the middle east, of course they are not settling if they don't have to. They may be free from the threat of being murdered, but starvation and disease are serious concerns. People have a right to seek a life, not just rot away in some camp until they succumb to illness or malnutrition.

ISIS has specifically stated they will use this to smuggle people through.. waves of people who are not being processed properly only facilitates that danger..

What possible incentive would ISIS have to try and convince the West that there will be negative repercussions for taking in the refugees who ISIS seeks to victimize and persecute? I am sure they just felt like giving the West a heads up so they could defend themselves better, there is no ulterior motive at play here whatsoever. 8)

 

[What 23]

Oh God. Please don't call me a bigot

 

[RedWhiteNTrue]

Just because refugees are looking to go to countries where they can have a comfortable life does not make them economic migrants somehow. Apathy towards the conditions of your host country are not a necessary requirement to qualify as a refugee, which is someone who is fleeing war and persecution. You can be a refugee and prefer Germany over Turkey, this is not being an economic migrant, it is common sense.

Refugees don't have to lodge a claim in the first country they set foot in, and if you look at the conditions in some of the refugee camps in the middle east, of course they are not settling if they don't have to. They may be free from the threat of being murdered, but starvation and disease are serious concerns. People have a right to seek a life, not just rot away in some camp until they succumb to illness or malnutrition.

I thought they were just fleeing war and persecution though? When you speak of common sense, in the self-interest of the immigrant. They seem diametrically opposed to the common sense of most Europeans. The resources used to shelter, feed, and give medical care to these migrants are coming straight out of the pockets of Europeans.

If there is a consensus to accept migrants to a particular country. Then so be it. If some people feel as if they have enough they don't mind paying higher taxes to cater to these people then that's fine with me. Germany already said they must make some cuts to raise funds to accommodate the migrants. Or even better like has been some places, people personally let a migrant family in their home, cook for them, and care for them. If you feel so impassioned by this, then that's your prerogative I respect that.

The voice of the European people needs to be heard. They need to be able to express their concerns without being called bigots or racism or Islamaphobes.

 

[drug_mentor]

What is the meaningful difference between being at serious risk of being killed by being beheaded, shot or blown up as compared to being at serious risk of dying of starvation, cholera, etc? The fundamental justification for refugee status is that their lives and well-being are constantly under threat. Whether the threat is a bunch of armed fundamentalists or a lack of food and medicine is fairly irrelevant.

When you consider that fleeing war is the causal influence which placed them in the position where they don't have access to adequate nutrition and medicine, it is particularly easy to see why refugee status still applies to those who have escaped conflict zones only to be housed in these massive refugee camps.

 

[RedWhiteNTrue]

What is the meaningful difference between being at serious risk of being killed by being beheaded, shot or blown up as compared to being at serious risk of dying of starvation, cholera, etc? The fundamental justification for refugee status is that their lives and well-being are constantly under threat. Whether the threat is a bunch of armed fundamentalists or a lack of food and medicine is fairly irrelevant.

Dying of starvation? Surely, there is some food in between sub-Saharan Africa and England.

Let's not say "fleeing war" when it is actually not the case.

Have you heard of Darwinism?

Romans and Greeks thousands of years ago had developed farming techniques, and better city-planning than some of these countries today.

 

[What 23]

Oh but they'd be travelling to Jupiter if white people wouldn't have stolen their shit.

 

[Deleted member 210577]

Perhaps, but let's try to talk about higher level stuff such as dealing with the extremists or migrants. "Islam is worse than Christianity" is a terrible topic for discussion, unless your only aim is to convince others that Muslims are bad.

Sorry cashflow_donkey, but I disagree. And I also disagree with you giving me a warning over my comment about Islam being the pinnacle of.. religions. We are not choosing to label it out of irrationality or unjustified hatred. It is fully deserved. As What 23 stated, and can be summed up by, 'Why should a person be forced to tolerate a religion that at its core is intolerant of other religions and non-believers'? Not to mention the other little gems in its holy text that have no place in a civilization based on reason, justice and freedom. I do not want people promoting that in my nation, period. It goes completely against what my nation, and other EU nations, have evolved over the past 500 years of our history.

Muslims as individual people are just people, like anyone else. No one holds anything against them as individuals. But what they choose to follow and propagate, Islam, I have every right to be offended by and protect myself, my children (unborn) and nation from. And that is part of this thread discussion because we're talking about a massive influx of people who believe in Islam and could irrevocably change our nations.

Alasdair: I say there is no moderate Islam not because every Muslim is an extremist. You know that's a strawman. The point is that at its core the religion is just incompatible with our own system, and given the chance to do so many peaceful Muslims will accept a more Islamic system in place of our current system. You're being incredibly naive if you don't think that wouldn't happen.

I never said all refugees are bad. Hence my comment about if they were coming from other nations (India, China etc). The people we see at the moment are not refugees. They are migrants, seeking economic opportunity, not refuge.

Just because refugees are looking to go to countries where they can have a comfortable life does not make them economic migrants somehow. Apathy towards the conditions of your host country are not a necessary requirement to qualify as a refugee, which is someone who is fleeing war and persecution. You can be a refugee and prefer Germany over Turkey, this is not being an economic migrant, it is common sense.

No, it does make them economic migrants. They know full well that Germany, Sweden and the UK will offer them generous benefits for doing absolutely nothing, hence why they are going there and not to any other EU nation.. there are plenty of other nations which could offer them safety and a chance to build a new life. Stop making excuses for these people, they know exactly what they're doing.

 

[drug_mentor]

Do you deny that there is a war in Syria? If not, then legally it is hard to understand how you could argue people fleeing that conflict are not refugees. Just because they have preferences in relation to where they end up does not negate the fact that they meet the legal definition of a refugee. You might not like it, but it is an indisputable fact that preferred destination is not relevant criteria for determining who is a legitimate refugee.

You can be a refugee who is aware that economic conditions are more favourable in some countries than others, logically many would choose the more favourable destination. There is no law that says refugees have to claim asylum in the first country they set foot in, and their decision to claim asylum elsewhere does not change the fact that they demonstrably qualify as refugees in any case where they are fleeing conflict.

You might disagree with this, but it is actually the law. When you say they are economic migrants, you are making a factual error. What you should be saying is you think they should be classified as economic migrants, or that paying any mind to economic conditions in a destination country should automatically undermine refugee status. As it stands, neither of these things are the case.

 

[Deleted member 210577]

Do you deny that there is a war in Syria? If not, then legally it is hard to understand how you could argue people fleeing that conflict are not refugees. Just because they have preferences in relation to where they end up does not negate the fact that they meet the legal definition of a refugee. You might not like it, but it is an indisputable fact that preferred destination is not relevant criteria for determining who is a legitimate refugee.

Take the example of the boy who drowned. His family had been safe, REFUGE, in Turkey for 3 years or so. They were in no immediate danger. Yes their standard of living might not have been great, but the were not being persecuted or in immediate danger. They choose to try and make the trip, and paid dearly for it. They were migrating for economic reasons, not seeking refuge from persecution or danger. If they can scrape together thousand of euros to pay smugglers then they are not in immediate danger. Same goes for the majority of these people trudging across the EU.

These people are refusing to be documented and processed properly. They know exactly what they are doing. Stop covering for their conscious decision to try and play the system at the expense of the people of the EU. I can't believe you actually feel compelled to try and stick up for this behavior, nor anyone else.. it's like half the continent has lost its fucking mind or something, deeply worrying. At this rate I will be emigrating myself in less than 10 years, most likely for your country.