71 dead found in a truck abandoned in Austria

[SKL]

multicultural in a sense that there has been always migration in Europe. and culture is worth preserving, but culture will always evolve. thinking you can stay at the status quo forever is just naive. I also still don't see how refugees and immigrants destroy "our" culture. please explain it to me.

I've got to go to work so will be replying much later on, but firstly I'm talking about people refusing to integrate, "dish cities," enclaves, the modern state of the banlieues, no go zones, and so on, and so on, things, and secondly, changing demography especially given very different rates of reproduction. (I am a fervent anti-Zionist but, yes, this is the same argument that Israel uses. Again, why is nobody criticizing Israel for being far more identitarian than any of us are arguing for?) Indigenous Europeans will become a minority in their own motherland and in the US people of European descent will become a minority in their own country. The latter is a bit of a different story as Blacks and indigenous peoples have been here since the beginning, and are undeniably a part of the shared American culture, but the European culture is millenia old and should be treasured. This isn't to say close the borders entirely, this is to say limit immigration to a reasonable extent so as to maintain culture. Why is it bad to want to protect one's culture? Why is it only bad when it's Europeans or American Whites who want to do it?

actually I think it does obligate us to take action. the western world has been exploiting the rest of the world for a long time. don't you think there is some sort of responsibility?

Absolutely. This is not just about our guilt but it is a humanitarian imperative. We should be funding services for refugees and so on. Military intervention will be an appealing idea to some but experience shows it only makes things worse in the long run. But this is not an argument for open borders.

and, as a last statement, if you think that believing in peace, humanity, solidarity and such things is naive, okay then. I believe in these things. and I also believe that these ideals will win (allthough I probably won't be witnessing that).

Peace, humanitarian, solidarity and such things are all wonderful ideals that we should strive for. Believing that a utopia is achievable is naive and attempts to create one have had a nasty tendency to end in totalitarianism and genocide, as the bloody history of the last century demonstrates well.

 

[Bagseed]

but firstly I'm talking about people refusing to integrate, "dish cities," enclaves, the modern state of the banlieues, no go zones, and so on

which is as much the fault of the governments for not dealing with immigration the right way. alsomost of these problems stem from poverty and lack of social security and perspective. poor people are always more likely to be criminal and violent. In Vienna there are lots of places with high % of immigrants (most of them from former Yugoslavia and Turkey and yes, many of them muslims). yet there are no places which are considered to be extremely dangerous in this city. I've been lots of places alone in the middle of the night, nothing ever happened. Austria has probably one of the best systems of social security world wide. and it is also one of the safest nations. coincidence?
and I believe that integration is a 2way road. many people here talk about how integration is important, but they themselves would never associate with immigrants. not very encouraging I believe.

ps if this thread was about israel, I would be talking about israel. but this thread is about Europe not being able to deal with refugees because of ignorance and racism.

 

[Deleted member 210577]

Been impressed with your posting SKL. Nice to see some reason bought into this thread. And What 23 too.

And again, I've asked this several times, never to a real answer, why is it only Europe and the U.S. who are asked to open their borders? Why is Japan, for instance, allowed to maintain a monocultural identity?

You will never get an honest answer to this question from people who hold politically left views, of which there are many in this forum. As soon as you express even a hint of desire for national or cultural preservation you are met with 'racist', 'xenophobic', 'islamophobic'.. or 'FAR RIGHT'. But when you ask them why we shouldn't be allowed to have an instinct of self-preservation or wanting to retain cultural identity (among the many reasons), there is nothing.. silence.. because they can not meet this question with an answer based on reason, only (negative) emotion.

It is apparent to me that our nations have been sabotaged by poisonous ideology from the inside out. When the population demographic begins to shift and we ultimately find ourselves getting locked out of our own culture and system, then people on the left, who secretly hate our establishment and system, will wake up.. but it will be too late. That's when shit will hit the fan and nations will lurch to the far-right. You can't fight the self-preservation instinct. Merkel invited all these people in and when she realized what a totally asshole mistake that was, they closed up the border. For all the "welcome" happy do-good-happy-horseshit ideology.. when it comes down to it, self-preservation always trumps emotional ideology bullshit.

I'm comfortable with saying I have no time for Islam [...] Everyone, including politicians, keep tiptoeing round the issue.. "Oh, Islam is a religion of peace!".. "We can get along". No, we can't. Islam is not compatible with modern 21st century European culture, attitudes or thinking. It just isn't. Why should anyone be forced to accept this nonsense thinking is beyond me. I'm a tolerant guy (waits for the ridicule), but Islam is just ridiculous.. it just is. The more I learn about it the more I become revolted by it. It's just fashionable these days to bash Christianity and religions in Western society, but bashing Islam? We can't have that!... Why. Why can't we bash it? It's a stupid religion, and thus it follows that stupid people follow it.

Why is it so hard for people to accept the possibility that Islam might actually be a foe and not a friend to us? That's not "Islamophobic", it's not irrational.. it's completely justifiable rational thinking. Irrational is believing that all people are equal and super-huggy-friendly. All I have to say to that is, get fucking real.

 

[swilow]

^You're instinct for self-preservation is fine, but it doesn't override the instinct of others to flee danger. Protecting the ambiguous idea of culture over the tangible, concrete reality of fleeing humans in danger is immoral.

I don't think many religions are a real friend to us these days. So much of this nonsense has emerged from essentially power struggles between denominations. If anything, I hope that the current wave of religious extremism helps us move away from such irrationality.

Well, "White". I know the terminology isn't perfect. Because diluting it on this level would possibly destroy it. Not that you care. You're probably without identity with a people.

Identifying with a subjective, invented "race" is pointless. You are identifying with something that has no real tangible markers or reality. Just because you have white skin is nor eason for you to consider yourself kin to other white people. No offense, but I don't look at other whites like you and consider yourself kin or connected with me at all, and I hope you don't see me as your white-brother. I would never help you over any other person because you are white. I guess I am saying that your faux-racial heritage is not going to be of any use to you in reality.

Europeans are not a single ethnic group. Look at people in Greece, people in Norway, people in Romania. All have distinct ethnic heritage, all of them are on the continent called Europe. The mediterranean countries have had huge input from Africa for many many years. There's really very few true "white" people in Europe. I wonder if you are trying to defend or identify a subset that doesn't exist.

Inuit and Eskimo have been in Europe for longer then white germanic peoples. There is evidence of them in Euope (Greenland, Siberia) over 4000 years ago. Are they not more European then most Europeans? But the truth is, inhabitants of a land change often, and there is little point in claiming history as a reason to avoid changing the present. No culture has ever been truly static.

And again, I've asked this several times, never to a real answer, why is it only Europe and the U.S. who are asked to open their borders? Why is Japan, for instance, allowed to maintain a monocultural identity?

I suspect that the reason is twofold. One, geographically Syrians are closer to Northern Europe, and there is (was) a relatively direct route for them to take to get to Northern Europe. Secondly, I think most of these asylum seekers have chosen to go to Europe. There's no point in forcing people fleeing their homes to go somewhere else against there will.

I personally think that all nations are obligated to help those seeking protection. I think that affluent countries like Japan should certainly be hlpeing out and it is an indictment of their society if they are not doing so. Its probably a bad example though, because Japan is historically quite monocultural; look at the Ainu.

I'm not hearing anything about a statement I made, which is that a lot fo the asylum seekers I have heard talk about fleeing temporarily to Europe. It seems quite a few wish to return when their country is safe. That appears to be a fact that the fear mongers are unwilling to discuss.

I think the principle of reciprocity needs to be invoked here to. Wouldn't we expect help if/when we need it?

 

[alasdairm]

Why is it so hard for people to accept the possibility that...

why is it so hard for you to accept the counterpoint to your position?

Irrational is believing that all people are equal and super-huggy-friendly.

i don't see anybody here saying that. when you have to exaggerate and fabricate to make your point, you have no point.

alasdair

 

[Deleted member 210577]

why is it so hard for you to accept the counterpoint to your position?

It isn't hard. I am open minded. In fact my original starting position was tolerance for Islam, I saw it in the same light as any other religion. Islam damned itself, or rather the more I learned about it the more naturally revolted I became by it. Not my fault that's the way it is, I make no apology for my reaction to it. I'm open to being convinced in the other direction, but given what I've learned there is a slim to none chance of that. Not because I'm not open, but because the evidence against Islam is just so damning.

i don't see anybody here saying that. when you have to exaggerate and fabricate to make your point, you have no point.

So you believe that Islam poses no threat to the UK, Europe or other nations, their cultures, demographic or people as individuals?

 

[alasdairm]

if you can show me where i said that, i'll eat my hat.

this "you're either for it or against it" approach just reminds me of gw's "you're either with us or against us" dogma and it makes it impossible to have a discussion.

alasdair

 

[Deleted member 210577]

if you can show me where i said that, i'll eat my hat.

this "you're either for it or against it" ..

I'm not interested in having a discussion with you, as neither of us will shift our positions.

But I asked you a question. Don't dodge. Do you believe that Islam poses no threat to the UK, Europe or other nations, their cultures, demographic or people as individuals?

 

[RedWhiteNTrue]

if you can show me where i said that, i'll eat my hat.

this "you're either for it or against it" approach just reminds me of gw's "you're either with us or against us" dogma and it makes it impossible to have a discussion.

alasdair

All I see from most of the left-wing posters is broad philosophical statements about borders being social constructs and a human right to movement.

I don't recall seeing any tangible numbers on how accepting in these refugees will benefit the citizens/voters of EU. Considering there is a finite number of resources available and countries like Greece have high debt, high unemployment, and it's citizens are suffering. Why should they be expected to feed refugeed, build migration centers, all the while paying for ships to patrol their coasts to save anyone trying to illegally enter their country in a makeshift boat.

 

[Deleted member 210577]

So peaceful. Migrants trying to breach the Hungarian border. Next video shows them lobbing shit. How would you like to try and spin this one huh? And you want my nation to take on this ungrateful bunch of tossers who have ZERO respect?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f4e_1442414364

 

[swilow]

This is not about Europeans. Conservatives are missing the point.

 

[What 23]

The staph bacteria in my wound deserves a place to live. This isn't about me. It is about a home for them.

 

[spacejunk]

It isn't hard. I am open minded.

I'm not interested in having a discussion with you, as neither of us will shift our positions.

But I asked you a question. Don't dodge.

Huh?

The staph bacteria in my wound deserves a place to live. This isn't about me. It is about a home for them.

Are you comparing humans fleeing brutal conflict to bacterium?
Just charming.

 

[RedWhiteNTrue]

So peaceful. Migrants trying to breach the Hungarian border. Next video shows them lobbing shit. How would you like to try and spin this one huh? And you want my nation to take on this ungrateful bunch of tossers who have ZERO respect?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f4e_1442414364

Cue the "this doesn't represent all migrants" and "this is just a small minority, don't paint them all with the same brush". It's just a repeating cycle.

I wonder if there's any limit on the frequency of violent occurrences, terrorist attacks, pedophile rings, and the likes where the far-left finally admit there might be a problem here. Sadly, most seem as dead set in their ideology as the Muslim extremists are. It's like 1984, what were those phrases again, "Slavery is freedom" or something, it's just like out of the book "Muliculturalism is good", "there are no borders", "just a lone wolf", "this doesn't represent all migrants".

No doubt they will be headed for UK. Or whichever country offers the most benefits. As for most of the eastern European countries, it seems like a game of human "hot potato", how quickly can we get them off to UK/Sweden/Germany and out of our country.

 

[swilow]

The staph bacteria in my wound deserves a place to live. This isn't about me. It is about a home for them.

I get that you are trying to parody the left but that comment is absurd racist garbage. Im embarrassed for you .

 

[spacejunk]

What would you do to save yourself and your family from an uninhabitable bombed-out shell of a homeland?
Can't see yourself acting in desperation?
You guys really are something else.

 

[RedWhiteNTrue]

What would you do to save yourself and your family from an uninhabitable bombed-out shell of a homeland?
Can't see yourself acting in desperation?
You guys really are something else.

Many refugee's are actually coming from countries that are not presently in war.

If you look at this recently release Vice News Short you will see many are coming from African countries not currently in war:



Again, if you were really desperate you might just settle in Turkey/Hungary/Bulgaria, but instead they travel west and west, to whichever countries have the most benefits.

I would probably try to be on my best behavior and try to be polite and courteous to the country where I am a "guest" in for all intents and purposes. Rather than throwing things at their police. Also, what family? All I see in this video is 20-year old men?

 

[spacejunk]

"Just settle" - you mean stay in a country without being granted asylum or immigrating there?
So you admit you'd be prepared to be an "illegal immigtant" in Turkey, Hungary or Bulgaria?

Seems that you've eiither conceded that point or you're contradicting the whole premise of your argument.

 

[RedWhiteNTrue]

"Just settle" - you mean stay in a country without being granted asylum or immigrating there?
So you admit you'd be prepared to be an "illegal immigtant" in Turkey, Hungary or Bulgaria?

Seems that you've eiither conceded that point or you're contradicting the whole premise of your argument.

Surely no matter where they go they are an illegal immigrant. Why risk you and your families lifes trasversing through Europe in a refrigerated truck or crossing the Mediterannean in a paddle boat? If your safety is priority and you made it to Hungary then just stop there. There is no ISIS there (that we know of but with thousands of migrants flocking in with no paperwork how do we know?), no bombs being dropped, many like the ones in this story were safe but made the calculated risk to come to the countries with most generous benefits systems and sadly did not make it.

Maybe we can start a fund to arrange flights into London or Stockholm for these refugees.

 

[spacejunk]

No, people granted asylum in, say, Germany are not illegal immigrants.