The Intelligence of DMT - A Retrospective Analysis.

[Doldrugs]

Besides insulting me and throwing out sophomore philosophy class cliches you didn't actually say anything in that post. Why not quote me some Godel and other well respected mathematicians saying the incompleteness theorem can be applied to all of science to mean science is inherently limited and DMT is intelligent?

 

[murphythecat]

but, for me, any drug affect not only the brain but the mind.
I dont need evidence, the dmt experience is so profoud and incredible, I dont need to have evidence. thats the difference with insight, you know its true. Like love, its true, how can you show evidence that love is the way to feel toward others, all the time?

dmt or strong dose of psychedelic affect the brain in such a way, that I know that the feeling of bliss, the light, is real. thats all I can say for now.

Because it's a simple fact of the theories. I am 100% sure.



"Maths have a ceiling" isn't what his theories mean. The incompleteness theorems do not imply what you're saying no matter how many times you repeat it. You're just taking the names of the theories and extrapolating illogical things from them. Next you'll be telling me a fixed speed of light means alien policemen put a speed limit on the universe so we couldn't fly to their police planet. Or that general relativity proves that everyone in your family is in the military.



Based on what? No evidence exists to support that. Plenty of evidence exists to support the idea that DMT is a chemical that affects your brain and nothing more. You're espousing anti scientific views: of course you're against science. You reject scientific reality because you prefer a fantasy.



Uh, what? Why? That's not true for any other drug experience or human experience. The human mind does not act identically to any other human mind under any circumstances.



I don't even know where to begin. The quote was entirely incoherent. Mathematics is a logical and clearly defined field that has proven concretely useful over and over. There's no causal or logical connection between the post he quoted by me and his insane statement that a huge field he obviously knows little about is entirely fantasy.

so you admit havent really read godel but are able to call it illogical?
have you experience a dmt breakthrough?
I admit though, I dont think dmt is intelligence per say, but its clearly a profoudn and so deep experience that I understand some will see a intelligence. but its badly formulated.

Besides insulting me and throwing out sophomore philosophy class cliches you didn't actually say anything in that post. Why not quote me some Godel and other well respected mathematicians saying the incompleteness theorem can be applied to all of science to mean science is inherently limited and DMT is intelligent?

 

[Doldrugs]

I dont need evidence

I think this concludes this conversation.

 

[murphythecat]

yeah, this thread is not about finding scientific evidence about the veracity of a dmt experience. the experience is enough evidence for me. if its not for you, Id have to ask, how could science ever conclude anything about a experience so profound in its visual and the bodily sensation? what do you want them to show, that its only a brain fonction? even if its only a brain function, even if, it shows that the brain is capable of producing state of bliss that are much more blissful then our ordinary way of feeling.
the experience is enough evidence in itself that life is something very special and that quite clearly, we may not be aware of what is really going on in our own self.

I this concludes this conversation.

I have to ask, have you ever experience a dmt breakthrough?

 

[Bagseed]

dmt or strong dose of psychedelic affect the brain in such a way, that I know that the feeling of bliss, the light, is real. thats all I can say for now.

would it be less "real" if it was "just" a function in your brain?

 

[murphythecat]

would it be less "real" if it was "just" a function in your brain?

not at all. but I think the light is not physical, its the mind itself in its pure form, which is calm, happy, and peaceful. and all around the light is the realm your mind is dweilling in and have access. my dmt trips are like that, I see the light, beings tell me to get in, but I cant, dont, and I visit those crazy realms where elves, fairies, dragons, weird light beings. rather then being the light and in the light, anyways in my dmt trip, its quite clear im just around the light and not in the light. but the bliss is also very real imo and dmt really show me that the bliss is right there, in me, and that bliss I know could be available at all time but for some reason, that I begin to see quite clearly, im responsible for not being the light and feeling the bliss at all time.

 

[Vurtual]

There's nothing inherent to science to say it couldn't shed light on what you think is exclusive to subjective conscious experience, one way or another. The point of science is to try and understand, whichever way that leads - as doldrugs pointed out, it shares this with mystical/practical religion. Given the particular record of science in recent history as mostly super-reductionist and often inhuman and unethical, it's no wonder that it seems antagonistic to people with holistic or mystical views - but science is not one paradigm, but is the wider body of knowledge that evolves over time (eg complexity and systems thinking seem to be slowly superseeding reductionism in some areas of science)

Imagine if 'science' discovered that in some quantum way, all matter since the big bang is entangled and connected, and that this is analogous to the idea of brahman, the ground of being and somehow provides a mechanism for what you (and i) have experienced of consciousness and its seeming separation from the physical body and connection to the infinite? If science ended up with theories like that would you be more recpetive to it? if so that would seem like cherry picking - the point in science is you can have favourite hypotheses that you want to be right, but you have to accept the results and fit your understanding around them (or do better experiments) - or as buddha might say 'don't become attached to a worldview, or to certainty'.

...

I've struggled through Godel several times in other people's books (eg loads in roger penrose, and in douglas hoffstaeder) and understand it while i'm reading it (honest ) - he was mostly working in response to some effort on the part of the mathematicians of the day (forget the name [hilbert]) to finally make a complete theory/system of maths that includes all the disparate bits together - Godel came up with a method to disprove that it would be possible to ever fully define an arithmetical system EDIT: from wiki:

Any effectively generated theory capable of expressing elementary arithmetic cannot be both consistent and complete. In particular, for any consistent, effectively generated formal theory that proves certain basic arithmetic truths, there is an arithmetical statement that is true,[1] but not provable in the theory.

and

For any formal effectively generated theory T including basic arithmetical truths and also certain truths about formal provability, if T includes a statement of its own consistency then T is inconsistent.

(it gets much worse than that).

It's also connected to the liar paradox 'this sentence is false', and an example of recursion. The theorem says nothing that denies the power of human understanding (which is probably based on strange loops itself anyway) - after all, godel understood the incompleteness theorem.

 

[FnX]

"Maths have a ceiling" isn't what his theories mean. The incompleteness theorems do not imply what you're saying no matter how many times you repeat it. You're just taking the names of the theories and extrapolating illogical things from them. Next you'll be telling me a fixed speed of light means alien policemen put a speed limit on the universe so we couldn't fly to their police planet. Or that general relativity proves that everyone in your family is in the military.

I have to admit, this one was pretty hilarious.

Still, I believe mathematics is just a system of interpretation. It has no actual substance, none whatsoever. It only exists in our minds. Fantasy. Erase the humanity, erase mathematics.

On topic of Gödel, perhaps check this article out http://www.perrymarshall.com/articles/religion/godels-incompleteness-theorem/ "Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem applies not just to math, but to everything that is subject to the laws of logic. Incompleteness is true in math; it’s equally true in science or language or philosophy."

 

[murphythecat]

vurtual.
the bliss or delightful feeling is obviously real and available, yet not there when sober.
how can science prove blissful sensation? experience is personal and science is about objectivism and perception and observable reality. I tend to believe that the reality is not material, but mental. sure, there a physical reality which is objective, but again, I know that co

 

[Doldrugs]

how can science prove blissful sensation?

Easily?

 

[murphythecat]

the question is how to maintain the bliss and about this, I wonder how useful is science.
this is always why I come back to psy, the bliss.
what is that inner bliss that gets triggered when on a psy. I feel it partially sober, but on most psy, this bliss is quite strong, much more delightful then even orgasm all over my body.
anyways, this is OT

Easily?

 

[Vurtual]

"how can science prove blissful sensation?" Science means 'to know' - anything you know is your science - if you want a shared science, you're going to have to use objectivity of some sort - whether that's experiments, maths and logic (godel notwithstanding), or buddhist dogma/techniques.

I was asking you to imagine that science, through its usual methods ended up having a theory which exactly matched what you think you found out subjectively - would you still think the distinction between science and mystical knowledge was so clear? i'm not saying i think science will say this, it's a thought experiment (who knows though)

 

[Molecular_Man]

I have to admit, this one was pretty hilarious.

Still, I believe mathematics is just a system of interpretation. It has no actual substance, none whatsoever. It only exists in our minds. Fantasy. Erase the humanity, erase mathematics.

On topic of Gödel, perhaps check this article out http://www.perrymarshall.com/articles/religion/godels-incompleteness-theorem/ "Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem applies not just to math, but to everything that is subject to the laws of logic. Incompleteness is true in math; it’s equally true in science or language or philosophy."

Thanks FnX. You covered me.

In the search of truth, true dialogue and human evolution, the worst case are not the semi-literates, but the semi-polymaths !

These cases trully need some mind-expanding help (!) in order to break the mind-blocks that have been ruining their lives.

 

[murphythecat]

yep, mathematics is fantasy.

I have to admit, this one was pretty hilarious.

Still, I believe mathematics is just a system of interpretation. It has no actual substance, none whatsoever. It only exists in our minds. Fantasy. Erase the humanity, erase mathematics.

On topic of Gödel, perhaps check this article out http://www.perrymarshall.com/articles/religion/godels-incompleteness-theorem/ "Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem applies not just to math, but to everything that is subject to the laws of logic. Incompleteness is true in math; it’s equally true in science or language or philosophy."

completeness can only be achieved in the experience, in the now. right now, how we feel, how we think and how it affects our mood, our emotions, our well being, thats all there is. as soon as we think, we're not here, we're in a fantasy world of duality, of thoughts.

hence why I think the dmt experience cannot be analyse by any other person then the one who has the experience. wisdom is the understood experience and I think each in every one can only be the one able to understand what DMT tells us!

 

[Molecular_Man]

Thank you. This was a very mind-expanding discussion, for sure.

As a side question, guys.
If dmt is not available, what analogue could mimic the dmt "intelligence" & entheogenic effects ?

 

[4meSM]

Just did some DMT (low dose smoked in an oil burner) and one of the most interesting feelings is that vision about going beyond, all the basics of the human world (our daily activities) seem unimportant at the moment, I go to a place far far away in my mind, there is where true knowledge is, the base of our consciousness. Music is the only thing which is able to go in the journey with me, the only communication between the everyday world and that place.

Does anyone else find DMT to be anxiolytic? Everytime i comedown i feel super calm and my heartbeat goes down

 

[swilow]

If dmt is not available, what analogue could mimic the dmt "intelligence" & entheogenic effects ?

Theree really isn't anything that is all that similar, though DPT is an oft suggested candidate. Its quite a bit weirder and more clinical though, less friendly but with a really archaic and primal mystic feeling to it. Less cosmic and grandiose but similar in a wayi.

Does anyone else find DMT to be anxiolytic? Everytime i comedown i feel super calm and my heartbeat goes down

Yeah, I deinfitely agree I would often feel calm during and after the experience, really clearly relaxed and at peace. It is a more natural-feeling anxiolytic then benzo's or whathaveyou. I often notice how good my tongue feels just sitting there in my moist warm mouth :D

 

[Ismene]

how can science prove blissful sensation?

I was reading a book about early human evolution and it said the only verifiable, repeatable feature of human happiness is a pleasant physical sensation. Certainly makes me happy when I'm writhing in ecstasy on LSD anyway

 

[GreenMachine]

Just did some DMT (low dose smoked in an oil burner) and one of the most interesting feelings is that vision about going beyond, all the basics of the human world (our daily activities) seem unimportant at the moment, I go to a place far far away in my mind, there is where true knowledge is, the base of our consciousness. Music is the only thing which is able to go in the journey with me, the only communication between the everyday world and that place.

Does anyone else find DMT to be anxiolytic? Everytime i comedown i feel super calm and my heartbeat goes down

almost every time, as soon as i breathe out the hit my i can feel my heart beating gently and very calmly. like a rush of pure zen lol.

 

[Molecular_Man]

Theree really isn't anything that is all that similar, though DPT is an oft suggested candidate. Its quite a bit weirder and more clinical though, less friendly but with a really archaic and primal mystic feeling to it. Less cosmic and grandiose but similar in a wayi.

What about 4-Aco-DMT, 5-Meo-DMT and 5-Meo-MiPT ? Are they any close to the real experience?