Bali Nine Australians Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran to be executed together in Bal

If people wont to use heroin they are going to find it and use it arent they. May as well make them as safe as possible. It's not like the current state of prohibition really restricts the flow of heroin much. It seems to be available to those that wont it.

Why keep it all in the dark shadows? That's what causes more harm.
 
Why does it have to be a deterrent? Why can't it simply be a punishment for crimes considered serious?
it can. but that assumes that the (sole) basis for the system of criminal justice is retribution.

some related reading, from a post by mahan atma many moons ago:
mahan atma said:
Very briefly, here is a summary of the various theories behind criminal justice.

There are several main theories underlying the justifications for a system of criminal justice. They are as follows:

Retribution: This is based on the notion that a criminal "deserves" to be punished for the crime he commits.

Deterrence: This is based on the notion that we want to discourage people from committing crimes again in the future. There are two types -- "general deterrence" and "specific deterrence". General deterrence means you are trying to discourage the population at large from committing crimes. Specific deterrence means you are trying to discourage the offender you're locking up from committing another crime in the future.

Incapacitation: This is based on the notion that we want to lock people up to physically prevent them from committing another crime. You just want to remove them from the public areana, to keep them from being a danger to others.

Rehabilitation: This says that we want to use imprisonment to reform prisoners (and is not exclusive to the above theories, it really has more to do with what we do with the prisoners once we have them in prison).

The last three theories are known as "utilitarian" theories because they are based on the idea that we are imprisoning people in order to increase social utility (here, utility is gained in the form of decreasing crime). These sorts of theories were advocated by Jeremey Bentham and John Stuart Mill.

The retribution theory (advocated by Immanuel Kant) is sometimes called "deontology" or "a deontological theory". Don't get thrown by the fancy name. It's based on the notion that there is a duty or imperative to act morally, and that people who violate this duty must receive their "just desserts", and so on.

Now, what you need to understand is that what theory you adopt affects the question of how you should deal with a criminal.

For example, suppose I believe solely in deterrence. Then I would punish someone only in order to prevent further crimes. If it was possible to discourage people from committing murders merely by fining them $100, that would be enough. To do any more than that would be needlessly inflicting suffering on the criminal.

Conversely, a person who believes in retribution is more likely to want to give the murderer the death penalty because they "deserve" to be punish in proportion to the crime they've committed.

You don't like the first situation as much because you see it as "too easy" on the criminal. But this is not necessarily the case. Suppose that the only way you could discourage people from committing petty theft is by sentencing them to life in prison. Then a pure deterrence theory person would say that's exactly what you should do. On the other hand, a retribution theory person would probably say that a petty thief does not "deserve" life in prison merely for petty theft.

Those are a couple of extreme examples that make retribution look more sensible than deterrence, but you can imagine less extreme examples if you like.

Another situation where the theories differ is in the case of the retarded person, as I demonstrated above. If you believe solely in retribution, you would NOT lock up the retarded person for committing murder, because it isn't their fault they are retarded and they don't "deserve" to be locked up.

A person who believes only in specific deterrence probably wouldn't lock up the retarded person either, because the person is unlikely to respond rationally in the future, and hence unlikely to be deterred. In other words, if the retarded person is "too dumb" to understand that committing another crime will get them locked up again, it doesn't make any sense to lock them up in the first place.

On the other hand, a person who believes in incapacitation believes that it is necessary to lock the person up in order to protect society. (But you would still try to house the person humanely, because to treat them harshly would be to inflict needless suffering.)

A person who believes in general deterrence may or may not lock up the retarded person, depending on how they think society at large will respond. If society at large understands that we're only going to make a special exception for retarded people, but that anyone else will still get locked up for committing crimes, then you wouldn't lock up the retarded person.

Do you see how the theories operate differently in different situations? Note that depending on the situation, one theory may seem intuitively more sensible than another. Sometimes your "gut feeling" tells you that retribution makes more sense (as in the case of not wanting to sentence someone to life in prison for petty theft). But in other situations, like the retarded person, incapacitation seems to make more sense intuitively.
alasdair
 
Indonesia executions wait for more inmates

INDONESIAN authorities are waiting for a Nigerian drug boss and others to receive word their clemency bids have been rejected before scheduling their executions and that of two Australians.

MYURAN Sukumaran and Andrew Chan are pleading for Indonesia to spare their lives after their bid for clemency and a judicial review were rejected.
The Bali Nine drug smugglers have been on death row in Kerobokan jail since 2006.

They argue they would be of more use to Indonesia if they were allowed to remain in jail, helping inmates rehabilitate.

Attorney-General HM Prasetyo said on Wednesday he plans the next executions for "maybe within two weeks".

But on Thursday he said he was still waiting for Nigerian inmate Silvester Obiekwe, and "more than three" others, to be notified their clemency applications had been rejected before proceeding.

President Joko Widodo had signed the correspondence but it passes through several hands before arriving with the prisoners concerned.

Indonesia already has eight drug offenders in line for execution - one Indonesian, the two Australians and five other foreigners.

It means as many as 12 prisoners could be executed in the next round.

"I hope it will be issued immediately," Mr Prasetyo said of Obiekwe's letter.

Cont -

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...for-more-inmates/story-fni0xqlk-1227209851679
 
OPINION: AFP will have blood on their hands, according to barrister Bob Myers

OPINION: Barrister Bob Myers tipped off the Australian Federal Police in an effort to stop family friend Scott Rush from committing a crime in Bali. Here he tells News.com.au why he believes the AFP will have blood on their hands when Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran are executed:

It seems likely that without the intervention of the Australian Government, at the highest level, both Myuran Sukumaran and Andrew Chan will be executed by firing squad in the short-term.

Again, without intervention, the other members of the group who have become known, over the past decade, as the ‘Bali Nine’ will likely spend the rest of their natural days incarcerated in some Indonesian prison.

It seems to me that what has been overlooked is that we are not here concerned with Australian citizens who are prepared to journey to a foreign country and commit a crime therein which might ultimately have led to the imposition of a sentence of death.

The Bali Nine were not “drug dealers” as referred to by the Indonesian President Joko Widodo, responsible for “killing 50 people a day in Indonesia”.

The Bali Nine were present in Indonesia as part of a conspiracy to commit a crime against only Australia and Australians.

The fact is that this group of nine young Australians was exposed to the almost inevitable imposition of the death penalty by a deliberate, premeditated decision of the Australian Federal Police, taken in complete contravention of the relevant Guidelines without any referral to the Government of the day.

Cont -

http://www.news.com.au/world/asia/o...rister-bob-myers/story-fnh81fz8-1227210216028
 
^it's true. they do.

Where do you draw the line? Heroin is a fucking insidious drug which only enslaves it's users. I feel more for the poor guy who will spend 12 months for smoking a spliff in Bali than I do two drug traffickers who were smuggling 13 kilos of heroin.

my "line" was in a previous post, but it seems you didn't understand it.

don't mind busty, he's just the douchebag he can't help being.

retributive justice is an abomination. capital punishment is not real justice, and they belong in the dark ages.

corporal punishment on children is lazy, stupid parenting. it teaches kids that violence solves problems. people often forget that kids learn not from what they are told, but from the behaviour they witness.

for more info, see alasdairm's post.

or better yet, maybe you should stick to scratching teeth and be quiet. leave the real issued to the adults.
 
Bali Nine duo Myuran Sukumaran and Andrew Chan will be executed this month

INDONESIA has formally told the Australian Embassy in Jakarta that the Bali Nine duo will be executed this month.

“We have sent notification to the Australian Embassy yesterday afternoon, to notify that the execution will be held this month,” Indonesian Foreign Ministry spokesman Armanantha Nassir confirmed.

“We sent the notification after we were notified by the Attorney General about the execution plan,” he said.

Myuran Sukumaran and Andrew Chan were told the devastating news this morning in jail by the Australian Consulate to Bali, Majel Hind sources told News Corporation.

The Indonesian Foreign Ministry confirmed it had formally told the embassies of all the foreign citizens facing execution last night that their clemency had been denied and they would be executed.

Cont -

http://www.news.com.au/world/asia/b...cuted-this-month/story-fnh81fz8-1227210558261
 
^it's true. they do.



my "line" was in a previous post, but it seems you didn't understand it.



for more info, see alasdairm's post.

or better yet, maybe you should stick to scratching teeth and be quiet. leave the real issued to the adults.

Real issues being debated by keyboard activist on the Internet? Good luck with that.
 
Bali Nine duo Myuran Sukumaran and Andrew Chan will be executed this month

INDONESIA has formally told the Australian Embassy in Jakarta that the Bali Nine duo will be executed this month.

“We have sent notification to the Australian Embassy yesterday afternoon, to notify that the execution will be held this month,” Indonesian Foreign Ministry spokesman Armanantha Nassir confirmed.

“We sent the notification after we were notified by the Attorney General about the execution plan,” he said.

Myuran Sukumaran and Andrew Chan were told the devastating news this morning in jail by the Australian Consulate to Bali, Majel Hind sources told News Corporation.

The Indonesian Foreign Ministry confirmed it had formally told the embassies of all the foreign citizens facing execution last night that their clemency had been denied and they would be executed.

Cont -

http://www.news.com.au/world/asia/b...cuted-this-month/story-fnh81fz8-1227210558261

following reading this, my first thought was "where is julie bishop? and her role in this matter? come on julie, fucking DO SOMETHING"; so went on a search and found this article at the abc, posted 7 hours ago.

Bishop, supporters continue mercy campaign

Foreign Minister Julie Bishop said the Government was continuing to make representations at the highest levels in Indonesia to save the men's lives.

"Australian citizens are on death row and will be executed by another government unless we can ... get a stay of execution - so we don't give up hope."

Meanwhile, human rights lawyer turned Victorian Supreme Court judge Lex Lasry has also joined the campaign to try to save the lives of Sukumaran and Chan.

He told a vigil in Melbourne on Thursday night that he had visited the men last week and they agreed they should be punished for their crime but said they did not deserve to die.

"What we have is Myuran Sukumaran and Andrew Chan transformed, rehabilitated to the point where they spend their time, even in the recent weeks when they've been under obvious pressure that their death is imminent helping other prisoners in the Kerobokan Prison," Mr Lasry said.

"No one says they shouldn't be punished for what they've done. They don't say that, they just want their lives - and of course, it's not just them, it's their families."

source

i really hope the australian government can intervene this decision somehow. although im slowly losing hope in there being a civil outcome, regardless of growing support on australian shores.

...kytnism...:|
 
Did anyone from the Australian government try and intervene during the execution of the Bali bombers? If I recall correctly there was more of a "justice is being served" standing back then
 
Did anyone from the Australian government try and intervene during the execution of the Bali bombers? If I recall correctly there was more of a "justice is being served" standing back then

no. to compare the bali bombing incident to this one (the bali nine) is like comparing chalk and cheese. the "bali bombers" (whom were indonesian citizens) staged a terrorist attack against australian tourists at the sari club (a popular tourist nightclub), planting bombs within the venue to explode at peak hour to deliberately cause harm and death to innocent patrons and later declared it was in the name of religion and aim for terror. how the indonesian government deals with their own people by law is THEIR business.


agreed. although im still failing to see the correlation between the two cases?

...kytnism...:|
 
So because they were australians they should be only held accountable to Australian laws? Are we obliged to execute Indonesians found trafficking drugs here in Australia?

These guys weren't desperate junkies or even pawns of some Mr Big. They knew the risks and were willing to take the chance to make millions of dollars. Unfortunately you break the laws you face to music. It's sad by harsh reality I'm afraid.
 
yes. and no we dont execute anyone (remove their life lawfully) under australian law. foreigner or otherwise. capital punishment isnt exercised here in australia.

and if they (mr sukumaran and mr chan) had of been apprehended by the AFP rather than the indonesian government their sentence time as already served would have only increased by a five year maximum at most? following the ten theyve already served.

drug related offences do not equal death. why simply because they are held in indonesia (and under differential law) do we have to accept this as ok? we dont. and i wont.

...kytnism...:|
 
In Sweden, I believe - they did hand out Heroin to junkies (diamorphine pharm) - it had a better success rate than those that tried to quit Heroine with methadone


Yeah send the SAS to get them out
 
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