Salvia safe for Schizophrenics? (Based on pharmacology)

[King-Anubis]

Hi everyone! Been awhile since I last posted....

I was just wondering, based on the pharmacology, if Salvia is safe for schizophrenics? I ask because unlike most psychedelics I believe (perhaps incorrectly) that salvia works on the kappa opioid receptors instead of dopamine or serotonin receptors. As dopamine and serotonin is believed to be one of the main causes of schizophrenia would it thus be safe to take with such a disorder, since it wouldn't mess with these receptors? Or would taking it possible cause damage to the opioid receptors such that it wouldn't be correctable with antipsychotics that only work on dopamine and serotonin receptors (and others such as histamine).

Cheers!

 

[kidklmx]

Maybe it's physically safe, even psychedelics are although they work with aformentioned receptors. But do you really think a Salvia state is something a schizophrenic should reach for? inb4 the "psychedelics are perfect"-squad says it's all hunky doory peachy keen, but given the possible risks that everyone is well aware of, it just doesn't seem worth it to me.

Seriously, you can't deny it's a huge gamble, even if it binds to a different receptor. Salvia is extreme, so much could go wrong

 

[flat-line]

Scientists and doctors talk about this and that "receptors" "histamine" blabla... collect another grant. But they still have no clue about schizophrenia or how to cure it.

Salvia hasn't show it will mess up human brains. But people usually don't recommend horrifying, terror inducing, hallucinating experiences for schizophrenics.

 

[Limitbreaker]

I think ive read somewhere that smoking salvia is actually beneficial to schizophrenic people. But i dont think the article or whatever it was meant recreational usage.

 

[kidklmx]

^Well, there are shamans who fit under the label "schizophrenia" and they use Ayahausca to conquer their mind and make sense of the world. That doesn't mean it's a great idea for every schizophrenic person to take it and do the same

 

[King-Anubis]

Thanks for all the replies so far! Many of you had made good points in that kappa opioid receptors could play some part in certain forms of schizophrenia or other mental disorders (such as, I would think, dissociative disorders in particular) so I would be taking a risk in trying it.

Others have also said about Salvia being beneficial for schizophrenics and part of the reason I was interested in trying it was because of - as previously mentioned - it was used by shamans to get into a sort of trance. My main concern though is not the experience at the time - which I think I could handle - but whether there would be any lasting effects beyond perhaps a few days of HPPD.

But again, I think it's probably best I don't, but I'm still somewhat on the fence about it. I almost think it's really whether I want to gamble my sanity on finding some higher truth.

 

[Venrak]

Salvia has thrown me into an existential crisis, and it lasted eight fucking years, not to mention I constantly relived the experience; several times a day at first, diminishing over time. I am most likely schizophrenic, according to my psychiatrist. Mind you, it blossomed into something beautiful, but I have been virtually incapacitated for so long.

it is the content of the experience, not the target recptors, that is dangerous for people with delusional disorders.

I really don't recommend you go through with this unless you are truly looking for a life-changing, catalyst-type experience that very well could unfold into something you could be all wrapped up in for quite some time.

 

[shikidala]

I can imagine low dose psychedelics such as Mushrooms, LSD & similar substances being beneficial for some people with Schizophrenia because it's shown to have helped in some people in some way in the past & it seems like some cases of Schizophrenia are caused by unresolved childhood trauma.

Just check out the results when they tried treating children with Schizophrenia [url]http://www.hofmann.org/papers/fisher/fisher_4.htm - "Treatment of Childhood Schizophrenia Utilizing LSD and Psilocybin"[/URL], then again there are many people diagnosed with the same mental condition but the causes may be very different from one person to the next.

I don't think Salvia could be beneficial in any way for someone with Schizophrenia at the threshold that causes a "recreational" dissociative trip. Personally looking back now I'm wiser I can't see how Salvia Divinorum would be beneficial psychologically in any way, unless you need to dissociate strongly? but then everyone is different, instead of being able to see more like with Mushrooms & work through things that might not be normally obvious that's causing you ill health taking Salvia actually makes it harder to do this & then on top leaves you wondering what the hell you've just experienced, I know it causes a lot of people including myself to feel unsettled on this planet in place, time & reality not something I'd imagine you'd be after if you suffer from Schizophrenia.

it is the content of the experience, not the target recptors, that is dangerous for people with delusional disorders.

I couldn't agree more with this, Venrak is spot on with his whole post.

 

[.:Holy::Toast:.]

I wouldn't recommend any psychedelics to anyone with a history of schizophrenia, psychedelics and paranoia and hallucinations don't generally seem to be a good idea

 

[Black]

But they still have no clue about schizophrenia or how to cure it.

exactly. we still have no idea, what the real cause(s) of schizophrenia are. if we knew, we could cure it, instead of just having medication that ameliorates some of the symptoms. when lsd was discovered everyone thought serotonin was the culprit, when it turned out that neuroleptics affected mainly dopamine, dopamine was the main focus, when the mechanism behind salvinorin was elucidated, some people shouted "now we got it, it's the kappa opioid receptor" and in between pcp and ketamine shifted the focus towards the ndma-receptor.

so, in short, we still have no clue. it's surely more complicated and probably involves a bit of everything. my advice is to stay away.

 

[Solipsis]

Even if the cause of schizophrenia can be correlated with certain neurological activity, the effects of the illness that are emergent from that are still pervasive making these people sensitive to a lot of different things, among which a lot of risks are entirely non-pharmacological. So if that is true, how could there be any merit to your theory?

= NO it is not safe.

 

[RhythmSpring]

I don't think it's fair to say "yes it is safe" or "no it is not safe." I don't think we have evidence, even anecdotal evidence, of schizophrenics taking Salvia. If there are, please share.

And mind you, an existential crisis is not the same as schizophrenia. It is something to consider, but I bet that happened on a high dose. What about low doses?

Salvia is best used that way, imho. That's the way I use it--I never break through--and I get the most out of the experience that way. The times when I did too much is when my brain felt fucked. In a scary way.

Doing it in small amounts is also the way the Mazatec Indians use it--by chewing the leaves or drinking a tea. And I would not be surprised if small, sub-mindfuck doses would be beneficial or insightful to schizophrenics. But that's as far as I'm going. I think it depends on the user--and the dose.

 

[Solipsis]

Really? How are Salvia effects not food for paranoid delusions?

 

[.:Holy::Toast:.]

I would say all psychedelics effects can be food for paranoid delusions.
If someone suffers from paranoia it could just as easily warp an LSD trip into something truly frightening and damaging to their psyche just as easily as salvia imo.
Especially considering the length LSD lasts since I believe too it would be more the content of the experience as opposed to the drug triggering specific receptors to cause a schizophrenic episode

 

[RhythmSpring]

Really? How are Salvia effects not food for paranoid delusions?

I'm more likely to have paranoid delusions on LSD than Salvia. Salvia grounds me. Sure, I get hella transrational when I'm on it, but after I come down, I am as far away from paranoid as I can be. I feel a grounded, rational, serene and dispassionate.

I feel like it renews my innocence, open-mindedness and makes me *less* delusional. I wrote the following after a recent Salvia puff:

"negative thoughts are painful
my body/brain produces endorphins (self-opiates) to numb myself against the pain of my own thoughts.

Salvia temporarily restricts my self-opiating power to allow me to feel fully the impact of what I am thinking. And know it: "Oh, THAT'S what I was thinking… jeezus."

 

[thizzkid]

Dude I mean physically youll be fine; no brain damage should be done from what i can tell, but of all the psychedelics ive done, and the list is long, salvia is by far the weirdest, freakiest, most potentially horrifying drug I've ever done, and often the user forgets that they have smoked anything or taken a drug when the hallucinations kick in which can multiply the anxiety and fear. bear in mind I'm talking about normal people smoking salvia; a schizophrenic person going through a salvia experience is about 99.99% likely to have an absolutely dreadful experience if not scarring.

I highly recommend you do not do this

 

[Solipsis]

We shouldn't look at people who don't get persistent after-effects but at those that do. Even short-acting psychedelics like 5-MeO-DMT, DMT and Salvia can occasionally trigger persistent panic or anxiety reactions. It can also shake a person's existential and spiritual foundations, not always is a good way. People have been known to get chronic issues like insomnia (panic when they try to go to sleep and/or nightmares) from it which goes to show that the transience is not a guarantee. And people with mental illness that relates to their sense of reality and the way they construe information and events into meaningful patterns are the last that need their reality tampered with. It should be self-evident that such people benefit from clarity and structure in their lives, not ambiguous experiences that need integration.

It is illogical to hold your own reactions as an example when you are healthy. Do not forget that coming down easy and quickly is a privilege of integrating the experience and the effects because the way you model your reality is very coherent and strong.

The quality of the effects during the experience a schizophrenic has on Salvia would not be the biggest problem, it's the after-effects that I would worry about. And physical / organic damage is not in question.

 

[RhythmSpring]

All I'm saying is we really don't know. Sure, for harm reduction's sake, we say "Don't do it," but in reality, this is all conjecture; we don't have any evidence of schizophrenics doing Salvia.

 

[psynami]

As probably has been said already: it is not just the physical reactioni that matters, but mostly the psychological: any stress for your mind and body is bad for people with psychosis or schizophrenia. Stress triggers symptoms to occur. So avoid any stress I'd say, especially if they are not necesarry at all. And taking salvia can definitely be seen as stress for your mind.
So please do yourself a favour and stay away from drugs if you have schizophrenia. It really really isnt worth the risk...

 

[No. 13 Baby]

*Read the rules - No posting videos of people tripping or getting high*