If weed isn't a "real" psychedelic how do you explain arabesque/hindu art?

[swilow]

^Not sure if you are replying to me, but the period in which medieval cathedrals were constructed is not exactly early christianity....Just sayin'.

 

[Doldrugs]

No, but they are clearly linked to early Christianity. If entheogenic use existed in early Christianity it could have lived on in many possible forms, including iconography.

 

[Vurtual]

There's also the likely crossover between druid or celtic traditions and celtic christianity, elements of which survived in pockets quite late (not talking in relation to that particular picture necessarily, just in general).

 

[DrGreenthumb]

Any idea why mushrooms would be on a cathedral door when the theory is it was witches rather than christian bishops using them? And if you look at that artwork from the cathedral door does it look like the two people on the right are naked? One looks like a man and the other like a woman? And the first mention of the fig tree in the bible is:

Adam and Eve used the leaves of the fig tree to sew garments for themselves after the Fall, when they realized that they were naked

I think things are coming a little clearer.

I do like figgy pudding.

It was from before the witch hunts. They adopted pagan symbols to convert the locals. If you look at other old Christian artwork you'll see Adam & Eve with amanatas or liberty caps rather than a tree. The bible had a few revisions, what you read now isn't the same.

 

[DrGreenthumb]

Correction, you posted a picture that YOU think is shaped like a liberty cap. Why would the church do such a thing? They were, and are, opposed to drugs. In the medieval world, women could be punished for being "scolds" or talking shit. People were burned alive as away to test whether they deserved to die or. Do you think that there was much tolerance for having visions that could undermine their hierarchy? You may just be seeing what you want to see here. The church has only ever tried to (literally) demonise use of hallucinogens so it makes little sense that they would incorporate it into their architecture.

That was hundreds of years after that cathedral. Are you trying to tell me they're fig trees too? They were still trying to convert pagans at that time, rather than going on witch hunts to wipe the last few out.

 

[max_freakout]

They [Religions] were, and are, opposed to drugs.

^ this is simplistic and incorrect

There was, and is, a distinction between 2 separate levels of religion, exoteric religion and esoteric religion.
1 - the clueless exoteric outsiders who havent tripped, lack awareness of tripping, and don't therefore recognise the allusion to drugs and tripping in religious symbols (such as the mushroom shaped "trees" in religious art)
2 - the psychedelic esoteric insiders who have tripped out and seen the "other side", and who recognise the psychedelic references in religious stories and symbols.

Don't fall victim to the incorrect, oversimplistic and self-defeating narrative that the history of religion has nothing to do with drugs and tripping, and that the church's attitude towards drugs over the centuries is purely about prohibition and ignorance. On the contrary, religion is centrally *about* the magical life-changing experiences that are accessed by consuming the holy psychedelic sacraments, and some people have always known this.

The holy scriptures (the bible, koran, Pali canon etc are filled with zillions of references to drugs and tripping, and every religious artwork is similarly a reference to drugs and tripping. But in order to recognise and make sense of these references you need to equip yourself with the psychedelic interpretive lens, ie you need to consider the religious stories as allegorical descriptions of trip experiences. The psychedelic interpretive lens is the best explanation for what religion is all about, much more plausible than the various alternatives.

 

[perpetualdawn]

max freakout, you are deluded in your understanding of religion!

every religious artwork is similarly a reference to drugs and tripping

How can you make a statement like this? Only by using your circular logic that if it's not psychedelic, it's not real religion.

But in order to recognise and make sense of these references you need to equip yourself with the psychedelic interpretive lens

If you look through that lense you're talking about you'll find patterns everywhere, where there are none.

 

[max_freakout]

using your circular logic that if it's not psychedelic, it's not real religion.

I didnt characterise the two levels of religion as 'real/unreal' as you suggest here ^, that is an inaccurate way to describe the difference between psychedelic and non-psychedelic religion. The words i used were 'exoteric' and 'esoteric', - if religion isnt psychedelic, then it is exoteric religion and not esoteric religion.

Non-psychedelic, exoteric religion is not 'unreal', but it is distinct from the esoteric counterpart because it does not integrate psychedelic drugs and tripping.

The psychedelic reference in the religious stories is recognisable to anyone who is familiar with the psychedelic altered state, the stories describe the process of eating the psychedelic sacrament then having the trippy magical experience.

 

[Vurtual]

Your view of religion and psychedelics (ie that all 'real' religion is esoterically psychedelic based) is a bit fundamentalist - though i've no doubt that it's true in some cases.

The similarity between religious icons and symbolism and psychedelic states is because both come out of the same brain; psychedelics can make it more intense and consistent, but are not required by any means (especially if you're prepared to put in some discipline - like monks/religious devotees often are, compared to us lot).

What about Hildegard of Bingen - did she secretly take psychedelics (from the age of 3)? She had some well trippy symbolic visons, all in a conscious waking state according to her. (Add to that all the other trippy religious stuff that came/comes from people who didn't take any sort of drugs).

(Edit: if somebody who knows how could embed the picture in that visions link into the thread, that'd be nice)

 

[max_freakout]

The similarity between religious icons and symbolism and psychedelic states is because both come out of the same brain; psychedelics can make it more intense and consistent, but are not required by any means (especially if you're prepared to put in some discipline - like monks/religious devotees often are, compared to us lot).

What about Hildegard of Bingen - did she secretly take psychedelics (from the age of 3)? She had some well trippy symbolic visons, all in a conscious waking state according to her. (Add to that all the other trippy religious stuff that came/comes from people who didn't take any sort of drugs).

This ^ non-psychedelic characterisation of religious mysticism limits intense mystical experience to rare cases of individual mystics, and to "monks/devotees" who are different from "us lot".

By comparison, the psychedelic variety of religious mysticism is not limited to such rare and extreme cases. Rather it is easily available to everyone, anybody can take drugs and find out what it means to have a psychedelic trip. With drugs, anybody can experience these intense, magical altered states; without drugs, these kinds of experiences are rare and inaccessible to most people.

 

[Vurtual]

I agree - i love how psychedelics give a brief, untrained glimpse of these states to anyone who tries them - this appeals to my egalitarianism. But it doesn't take away from the mystics, whose discipline means they can often bring more back from these places (whether drug-fuelled or not) than the average western numpty like me, who gets dumped in hyperspace without being able to navigate as well, and afterwards goes back, more or less, to their/my normal idiot ways (after a few days/weeks afterglow).

 

[swilow]

That was hundreds of years after that cathedral. Are you trying to tell me they're fig trees too? They were still trying to convert pagans at that time, rather than going on witch hunts to wipe the last few out.

I'm confused. Isn't that the 15th century Scottish Rosslyn chapel? Apparently its meant to depict maize. All I see is some stained glass and an arched window. Wheres this liberty cap?

Don't fall victim to the incorrect, oversimplistic and self-defeating narrative that the history of religion has nothing to do with drugs and tripping, and that the church's attitude towards drugs over the centuries is purely about prohibition and ignorance. On the contrary, religion is centrally *about* the magical life-changing experiences that are accessed by consuming the holy psychedelic sacraments, and some people have always known this.

To be honest, I'm more concerned about falling victim to the idea's above, of which I see no evidence and really no merit either. We've had this debate before, and you've been unable to convince me then because it has always seemed speculative and highly wishful and light on evidence. You are associating repressive, medieval religions witht freedom and liberty of psychedelics. That is just crazy to me; its actually like you are trying to diminish the psychedelic experience by associating it with close-minded religion, or perhaps you are christian trying to elevate your doctrine. I don't know, but its odd either way.

You are claiming that you understand the truth of religion and that billions of others do not. Don't you think this is somewhat unlikely? Why and how would this be kept secret? It would take an enormous show of cooperation, globally, over thousands of years to conceal the truth as you see it. It seems so improbable, to me at least...

I dunno max, this sounds like more of your unsubstantiated speculation to be honest I'm sure that psychedelics have, at times, inspired religion and that religion is not always seperate from psychedelia, but the idea that they are the foundation stone is really unlikely. I know that religous perspective on drugs is not always binary, but it often is- all the worlds big religions, perhaps besides hinduism, proscribe the use of drugs. If your theory of psychedelically inspired religion is correct, that would be like the church banning use of the bible.

I've love some reputable evidence and by reputable I do not mean some internet geek who has read Terence McKenna...

 

[max_freakout]

all the worlds big religions, perhaps besides hinduism, proscribe the use of drugs.

Mckenna made exactly the same mistake that you make here ^, by falsely assuming that "all religions have always proscribed drugs". This belief acts like a smokescreen in your belief system, preventing you from being able to see the elegant and coherent truth that all religions are actually *about* the drug experience.

No religion "proscribes drugs", there is no mention in any of the holy scriptures of a proscription of drugs, for example there is no holy commandment in the bible that says "thou shall not take drugs and trip out". And furthermmore there are many many stories in the various holy scriptures about people eating holy sacraments and then having altered state experiences.

Drug prohibition is an entirely modern phenomenon, it never existed before modern times.

 

[Ismene]

^^

Isn't the fifth precept of Buddhism "Thou shall not be intoxicated"?

 

[max_freakout]

^^

Isn't the fifth precept of Buddhism "Thou shall not be intoxicated"?

There is no word in sanskrit that corresponds to "intoxicated" in the fifth precept.

The fifth precept explicitly names "fermented and distilled drinks that cause heedlessness" ie alcohol. Furthermore the precepts are not interpreted as prohibitions, buddhists are not prohibited from drinking alcohol.

 

[Ismene]

Wouldn't they include drugs along with alcohol?

 

[max_freakout]

Wouldn't they include drugs along with alcohol?

if that was their intention, they would have clearly said so instead of explicitly naming alcoholic drinks specifically, and not making any mention of any other drugs. There is no reason to think that buddhism has any problem with drugs other than artificial projection of the modern anti-drugs mentality, even the fifth precept about alcoholic drinks is not a prohibition.

No religions prohibit drugs, only the modern drugwar mentality does that. On the contrary, religions such as buddhism and christianity are based on using drugs and tripping

 

[perpetualdawn]

You speak using a voice of authority about subjects you demonstrate very little actual knowledge about max. Your ideas about Christianity and Buddhism being based on drugs and tripping are a fantasy.

 

[max_freakout]

Your ideas about Christianity and Buddhism being based on drugs and tripping are a fantasy.

do you have any specific criticisms of anything i have said?

Religions are very clearly grounded in altered state experiences, every religious story depicts people undergoing such experiences

 

[DrGreenthumb]

I'm confused. Isn't that the 15th century Scottish Rosslyn chapel? Apparently its meant to depict maize. All I see is some stained glass and an arched window. Wheres this liberty cap?

You've taken a different picture out of context. I was talking about the engraving on the 11th century Hildesheim Cathedral bronze door, it's in Germany.

The depictions of maize are elsewhere in the Rosslyn chapel, I didn't link any pictures of that. The stained glass window at Rosslyn is in the shape of a liberty cap. Most arched windows aren't exactly the same shape as a liberty cap.