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[Debate] What is ego-death?

Well pisspoor...wrong on all counts...besides i never said i'd IV'd 100mg i said it was 80 and i'm damn good at what i do and have been doing this and similar extractions for 20+ years...also, if i was trolling i'd have picked on somebody who seemed to have some actual credibility...not you.

Besides maybe your DMT is shit or your vaping method is flawed...?

lol whatever you reckon mate.. if my DMT was shit, why was I experiencing complete ego loss on less than 100mg? fuck, if I was to convert it to a salt n whack it up like you did, I dont think I would wanna touch the stuff again - although I probably wont after the last couple of break-thoughs.. fuck DMT is some wild shit

I love how most threads in PD are like one massive debate haha its good
 
Just based off this singular thread it reads as though you are not looking to intelligently further the discussion and this max guy slept with your girlfriend. The argument for "it just means your really fucked up" is comical. I could get drunk to the point of vomiting, spins, zero short term memory etc. but nobody in their right mind would attempt to claim it as ego death. If it only occurs on psychs their must be something to it. It always amazes me when individuals who claim to have such extensive psych experience come off so close minded. Are you under 21 by chance?

I was some 15 odd years ago. Here it is: I believe ego death is a subjective experience ie only the individual experiencing it can claim to have experienced it and it is simply a label nothing more to describe their subjective experience. I chose NOT to use this label mainly because of the word "death" and the hype surrounding the MANY concepts/definitions of "ego death". To advise large doses of psychedelics to achieve "ego death" is in my opinion a dangerous ideology. Period.

Edit: I've said my part. Made it obvious what my idea's on this subject are. Seeing as this is a thread full of eloquent highly educated individuals I will not suggest the method of extraditing oneself, Beavesmx44, back to Noddy land or what fate awaits you there at the hands of Big Ears... I will suggest you stock up on your lubricant of choice however.
 
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lol whatever you reckon mate.. if my DMT was shit, why was I experiencing complete ego loss on less than 100mg? fuck, if I was to convert it to a salt n whack it up like you did, I dont think I would wanna touch the stuff again - although I probably wont after the last couple of break-thoughs.. fuck DMT is some wild shit

I love how most threads in PD are like one massive debate haha its good


I have NO DOUBT pisspotnrock's DMT was fucking good. Aya and DMT is one drug Ozzies actually have in abundance and of exceptional quality. Everything from "changa" DMT and Syrian rue laced carrier herbs and aya through to yellow DMT crystal and high purity white 99% NN-DMT. Thing is IV 25-30 mg of 4 aco dmt...
 
I could get drunk to the point of vomiting, spins, zero short term memory etc. but nobody in their right mind would attempt to claim it as ego death.

Is that just because being drunk hasn't got the same romance associated with it tho?

If it only occurs on psychs their must be something to it

I've heard of it being claimed for all kinds of drugs from dissociatives to hashish to opium. I think someone claimed it on absinthe too.
 
I believe ego death is a subjective experience ie only the individual experiencing it can claim to have experienced it and it is simply a label nothing more to describe their subjective experience.

of course ego death is a subjective experience, what else would it be? ALL experiences are subjective, life itself is one big subjective experience. But ego death is a subjective experience that many people undergo, there are hundreds of trip reports on the internet (including on this forum) that describe in detail the experience of mentally dying during a strong trip.

"Ego death" is a label that is used to describe this subjective experience of mentally dying in the psychedelic state of consciousness.

In exactly the same way, "orgasm" is a label that is used to describe the subjective experience of sexual climax. We give particular, specific subjective experiences labels such as "ego death" or "orgasm" or "headache"or "tripping" etc etc etc so that we can communicate with each other about them.
 
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you seem to be saying that there exists a right and a wrong way to take psychedelics

it has nothing to do with "right and wrong", you can take drugs however you want to take drugs, for whatever reason you want to take drugs, it's entirely up to you. There's no right way and no wrong way to take drugs except perhaps with regard to harm reduction which is a separate issue from ego death.


people will use these drugs according to their own personal motivations and seeking their own ends.

i agree with this ^, people will do whatever they want, such as the standard modern context of "recreational" drug use. Ego death is connected to the context of using drugs for serious, dedicated exploration of the phenomenology of altered states of consciousness. If you are personally motivated to want to explore the psychedelic dimensions of mental activity, then you will be very interested in ego death.


I think the more widely accepted understanding of ego death, the same understanding I too holdis way more likely to represent something real as opposed to the opinion of a very obscure psychedelic drug user like Michael Hoffman.


There is no "widely accepted understanding of ego death", such an understanding doesnt exist, as this thread clearly demonstrates. The only alternative to the ego death theory is sheer vagueness, obscurity and meaningless waffle, as this thread shows. In contrast to all the vagueness and petty bickering over the meaning of "ego death" that we see on this thread, Hoffman's ego death theory provides a clear, systematic and explicit framework for understanding the psychedelic cognitive dynamics, it fully explains what the ego death experience is all about.


We are all amateurs- there is no other type of user...

there is a spectrum, from amateur users right up to highly advanced users - ie users who have been fully initiated into ego death (through multiple ego death experiences) and who grasp the ego death theory.
 
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The whole debate starts with an observation: - Many people report experiencing a feeling of dying or ceasing to exist or going irreversibly insane or reaching the end of time/end of the world etc etc while they are tripping. A central theme of the ego death experience is the thought: I can never return to the ordinary sober state of consciousness, ive tripped too hard and "died". The most important aspect of "death" is the fact that it is permanent, you can't go back, that is precisely what it *feels like* to be in the middle of an ego death experience.

There is ample evidence to prove this ^ assertion, in the form of verbal trip reports, ie the way that people describe their psychedelic experiences, such as the the three trip reports that i linked to earlier. We also have the trip reports from the great famous psychedelic explorers that clearly describe ego death, for example Albert Hoffman's description of his famous first acid trip on bicycle day.

This invites many questions such as: why do people commonly report experiencing ego death when they trip? What does it mean to think to oneself that "I have died"? What is the "I" that thinks it has died in the death trip? How can a person recover from ego death and integrate/understand the experience? etc. - Michael Hoffman's ego death theory provides a clear answer to all these questions, a systematic model or *map* of ego death.

Having fully mapped out the full details of the psychedelic ego death cognitive mechanism, Hoffman then proceeds to postulate that all religion and mythogy, such as the bible, is metaphorical descriptions of ego death. Especially in the case of Christianity/Jesus Christ, Hoffman explains how the religious/mythological stories map out the ego death phenomenology using sophisticated systems of metaphors. The most crucial example of this is the story of the Godman Jesus Christ dying on the crucifix (the centrepiece of Christianity) is a metaphor for the ego death initiate after eating entheogens at the metaphorical "Last Supper" in the throes of the classic *bad* psychedelic trip - total psychotic dis-integration of the mind - "I've taken too much".
 
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And having brought out the glowing sticks and whistle, Jesus spoke shaking, "These are my trance mix tapes I have prepared for you.", asking his disciples, "Who amongst you has a scale?"
Dividing the candy bracelets among them, Jesus had ample left over, and, leaning under the table a bit, consumed them. He proceeded to lay in the bushes and, giving everyone a weird vibe, spoke thus, "These are my robes I have shed for you bitches."
The following morning Jesus woke the disciples and everyone was getting very annoyed at this point. He was somehow still up from the previous night.
Police came then, with a complaint, "Thy neighbour Judas has to work. Keepeth low thy noise", and Jesus flipped the fuck out.
 
Is that just because being drunk hasn't got the same romance associated with it tho?

If it only occurs on psychs their must be something to it

I've heard of it being claimed for all kinds of drugs from dissociatives to hashish to opium. I think someone claimed it on absinthe too.

The semantics in this thread have grown tiresome. It has met it's end.
 
of course ego death is a subjective experience, what else would it be? ALL experiences are subjective, life itself is one big subjective experience. But ego death is a subjective experience that many people undergo, there are hundreds of trip reports on the internet (including on this forum) that describe in detail the experience of mentally dying during a strong trip.

But it's incredibly difficult to describe a psychedelic experience in words. Obviously what you experience on psychedelics is nothing remotely like death but because reach for "death" and "I was dying" because it's an easy shorthand that Tim Leary used. There are hundreds of reports on the internet of people seeing aliens.

In exactly the same way, "orgasm" is a label

No max. An orgasm is an objective experience too because you ejaculate. That's very different from feeling a little strange on psychedelics and then reaching for tired terms like "death" to describe it.

I mean - seeing as no-one has the foggiest idea what death is like anyway, what's the point in using the term? It can only be bullshit.
 
We also have the trip reports from the great famous psychedelic explorers that clearly describe ego death, for example Albert Hoffman's description of his famous first acid trip on bicycle day.

No. Albert Hoffman had just taken an unknown drug and had every reason to suppose he might die. That's an entirely different situation from taking it 70 years later knowing no-one in the history of it's use has ever come close to dying.

There is ample evidence to prove this ^ assertion, in the form of verbal trip reports

I think we need to clarify that this is an experience only open to a certain kind of person tho. A scientologist will experience and believe things that other people can't.
 
That's why I decided to refer to it as ego dissolution. Even though a word can mean more than one thing. I mean ego death doesn't have to imply that it's the same as actually dying. Regardless, ego dissolution seems to be more descriptive and doesn't ruffle feathers as much.

Also, people don't try to say they experienced ego death when they "feel a little strange on psychedelics". I can appreciate that you've never had the experience but you don't need to belittle the experiences of others by trivializing them. Are you suggesting that everyone who has experienced it has just made it up?

And having brought out the glowing sticks and whistle, Jesus spoke shaking, "These are my trance mix tapes I have prepared for you.", asking his disciples, "Who amongst you has a scale?"
Dividing the candy bracelets among them, Jesus had ample left over, and, leaning under the table a bit, consumed them. He proceeded to lay in the bushes and, giving everyone a weird vibe, spoke thus, "These are my robes I have shed for you bitches."
The following morning Jesus woke the disciples and everyone was getting very annoyed at this point. He was somehow still up from the previous night.
Police came then, with a complaint, "Thy neighbour Judas has to work. Keepeth low thy noise", and Jesus flipped the fuck out.

Nice =D

I think we need to clarify that this is an experience only open to a certain kind of person tho. A scientologist will experience and believe things that other people can't.

Maybe so but that doesn't mean it isn't a valid experience. Experience is everything, it's our reality completely.
 
I can appreciate that you've never had the experience but you don't need to belittle the experiences of others by trivializing them. Are you suggesting that everyone who has experienced it has just made it up?

I'm not trivializing them, I've repeatedly said that scientologists, muslims, people who see aliens etc will all have experiences that arn't accessible by me. I've no doubt they believe in what they've experienced but I don't have to believe I will experience it too.

Are you suggesting that everyone who has experienced it has just made it up?

No, I'm willing to believe that certain people can experience anything they like. I simply refuse to accept that everyone is going to share their experience or that psychedelics can induce this alleged state in everyone. There are billions of muslims in the world and they are welcome to their beliefs but I don't have to believe them and there's absolutely no chance I will ever have a muslim experience.
 
so max my friend, you clearly haven't had the worm from your tequila shot. I just thought i was to go on the whole woo pa of ego death 4000 wank beta2.0 but i digress. so i thought why not i will open up my consuming passions recipe book and see what a Friday dinner feast will be..... so entree PCP,2cE, 4 ho mipt ,4acoDMT,2cB,shit load of speed,family KFC bucket,IM pcp 4acoDMTin one shot, and to come with a conclusion of your ego death wank stain in you grandmothers sock. The one you've secretly placed in your 3rd draw next to the knickers that its not a fact that your ego is past its masculinity of kissing the grim reapers pekker ......ill simplify it to you. YOUR TRIPPING OFF YA TITS . ENJOY IT AND GET OFF THE EGOTISTICAL VAPOR YOUR SWEET OFF YA NANNERS KNICKERS !! BTW PCP is a bitch like nanna's dripping undies.
 
No. Albert Hoffman had just taken an unknown drug and had every reason to suppose he might die. That's an entirely different situation from taking it 70 years later knowing no-one in the history of it's use has ever come close to dying.



It makes no difference, Hoffman had the first acid trip and described it just the same as every standard ego death trip has been described since then, ie he reported that he thought he had died or gone permanently insane, just as so many acid trippers ever since have commonly reported thinking that they had died or gone insane.

Ever since Hoffman's bicycle trip, countless thousands of people have taken acid and described having essentially the same standard psychedelic ego death trip, as the vast number of acid-induced trip reports on the internet clearly demonstrate. It made no difference that Hoffman had taken an unknown drug for the first time, since the way he described his ego death experience is exactly the same as every person since that first trip has described it, when they took acid knowing what it was. People still to this day commonly take acid, knowing what it is, and experience full ego death. Ego death is a classic, timeless phenomenon. Hoffman's report of his first acid trip is a famous example of a standard psychedelic ego death trip.

Also, Hoffman had already experimented with acid previously by giving huge doses to lab rats and then observing them, and he observed in those test subjects that the acid had no dangerous effects on them, there were hardly any physical effects at all, and of course he couldnt see the internal psychological effect that the rats were experiencing
 
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No, I'm willing to believe that certain people can experience anything they like. I simply refuse to accept that everyone is going to share their experience or that psychedelics can induce this alleged state in everyone. There are billions of muslims in the world and they are welcome to their beliefs but I don't have to believe them and there's absolutely no chance I will ever have a muslim experience.
I'm not trivializing them, I've repeatedly said that scientologists, muslims, people who see aliens etc will all have experiences that arn't accessible by me. I've no doubt they believe in what they've experienced but I don't have to believe I will experience it too.

You are making a category error here ^ which you have frequently made throughout this thread, confusing 'beliefs' with 'experiences'.

Beliefs and experiences are two entirely different kinds of thing. Muslims have religious beliefs, trippers have religious experiences.
 
I'm not trivializing them, I've repeatedly said that scientologists, muslims, people who see aliens etc will all have experiences that arn't accessible by me. I've no doubt they believe in what they've experienced but I don't have to believe I will experience it too.

I think I got prickly when you said the thing about people using tired terms like death to describe their feeling a little funny from psychedelics. No one uses the term ego death to describe feeling funny from psychedelics and it seemed like an attempt to trivialize those who claim to have had the experience. But I believe you if you say that isn't how you feel.

No, I'm willing to believe that certain people can experience anything they like. I simply refuse to accept that everyone is going to share their experience or that psychedelics can induce this alleged state in everyone. There are billions of muslims in the world and they are welcome to their beliefs but I don't have to believe them and there's absolutely no chance I will ever have a muslim experience.

Okay sure. It's about being open to experiences I think. Then again, I'm just me. Maybe there are people open to this experience who will never have it.
 
But it's incredibly difficult to describe a psychedelic experience in words.

It isnt particularly difficult to describe psychedelic experiencing, as you can see from any well written trip report, such as the many thousands of thoroughly detailed trip reports on erowid.

It does require a degree of intelligence and articulacy to describe a trip well, but not that much. Also people with artistic abilities can render elements of their experiences in art, as visionary artists like Alex Grey, Luke Brown and Chris Dyer etc demonstrate

Obviously what you experience on psychedelics is nothing remotely like death

This is completely false, certainly not "obvious". On the contrary, many people have experiences that are absolutely convincingly like being dead, or like going permanently insane, reaching the end of time etc etc. These kinds of experiences are commonly referred to as "ego death experiences", they are very common with psychedelic use.



but because reach for "death" and "I was dying" because it's an easy shorthand that Tim Leary used

When people try to accurately describe an experience, they typically look for the words that most closely fit with what the experience felt like. Ego death feels very much like being dead or permanently insane, so people use expressions like "i thought i had died" or "i thought i had gone permanently insane". Tim Leary is another example of a highly intelligent and articulate person who described the psychedelic death-trip in detail.


There are hundreds of reports on the internet of people seeing aliens.

Because they had experiences that felt like seeing aliens, so they describe those experiences as seeing aliens. This is the same principle that is involved with describing ego death, or any other experience, ie you use the words that most closely fit with what the experience felt like.


An orgasm is an objective experience too because you ejaculate.

There is no such thing as an "objective experience", that is a direct contradiction-in-terms. You are getting subjectivity and objectivity confused with each other.

Subjective = from a particular point of view
Objective = from no particular point of view


the subjective aspect of an orgasm is the feeling of orgasming, the way the experience feels to the person who is having the experience.


That's very different from feeling a little strange on psychedelics and then reaching for tired terms like "death" to describe it.

Feeling "a little strange" is a very different thing from feeling like one has died or gone permanently insane, people do not describe "feeling a little strange" anything like the way people describe going through ego death.


I mean - seeing as no-one has the foggiest idea what death is like anyway, what's the point in using the term? It can only be bullshit.

You don't know what death is like until you experience it tangibly for yourself, after you have experienced it, then you know what it is like. In the ego death experience, the subject feels tangibly and totally convincingly like they have died, stopped existing, gone totally insane etc, essentially ego death feels like having permanently left ordinary reality, not able to return to sobriety.
 
Maybe so but that doesn't mean it isn't a valid experience. Experience is everything, it's our reality completely.

Very much agreed, but with this added:
I don't think many people are born a scientologist, having come up with those ideas on their own... while I had an ego-death experience the second psychedelic experience I ever had and I had not read anything about any altered states of consciousness. I am also certain I did not attribute most of the ideas and descriptions related to the concept of ego-death later on, what it felt like at the time just matches it without having to modify the memory.

I think Ismene has some good points, and Max may for my taste be a bit overconfident about this matter which is something very extraordinary and complex, something where doubt, nuance and an emphatic acknowledgement of subjectivity feel very important...
it is just that I disagree that use of the concept / idea of ego-death is something highly dogmatic for the above reason. Yes it is a concept humans came up with, but most things are. It still is derived from direct experience, how it feels, what it does to you... and that people seem to have experienced similar things and agree about various sentiments on the subject. I think Ismine tries to compare it to ideas like those in scientology that are derived from 'lore'.
So I don't really appreciate the analogies that seem like an - as I now tried to prove invalid - attempt at reductio ad absurdum.

Lore is a sort of hearsay where you are meant to believe someone else's revelations, but you have to go on faith or arguably naivety and ignorance when talking about scientology. When experience which we now repeatedly have said can never be entirely invalidated as long as people say what something just felt like to them, and especially when the experience came first and before any idea, concept or tradition... the most someone can do IMO is disagree with the terminologies used to talk about common or 'shared' experiences. Though as is said before, it is weird to do that if you never had the experience yourself... it has nothing to do with elitism that it doesn't put you in a very good position, just like I have never experienced being in Cambodia and am not really in a position to make a whole lot of claims about it, while one is always entitled to his beliefs.

So Ismene's challenge would be to explain how I would be predisposed to have experienced it while he believes he is predisposed not to. I said before that may very well be true if the predisposition is rooted in neurology / psychology, but not religion or something like that.
 
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It's about being open to experiences I think. Then again, I'm just me. Maybe there are people open to this experience who will never have it.


I like to believe (and stated much earlier in this thread) that anybody could in principle experience ego death, but i could be wrong about this. It is certainly true that not everybody *will* ever experience ego death in their lifetime, but it is questionable whether everybody *could* experience ego death.

However in the case of Ismene i think it is very clear why he hasnt gone through ego death despite having tripped many times. He has indicated that he only likes to externalise his trip experiences by going out in nature or socialising or whatever, and that on the few times when he has tried to internalise his trips he found it "boring". I think that this explains a lot, ego death isnt found on the outside of oneself, out in nature or whatever, ego death is an internal experience, purely in the realm of internal thoughts, feelings and emotions etc. Ismene has indicated that he avoids going to that realm when he trips, he prefers to keep his attention focused externally.
 
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