☮ Social ☮ PD Social Thread: Trans-dimensional Hyperspace Cocktail Bar - Fractals Apply Within

[Xorkoth]

You'd get really high. I'd say go for it. Glad you had a nice MXE experience.

I think that's a big part of it. The treatment ideology is different. Doctors here absolutely do not view medication as an actual solution; just something used in critical situations. It feels like in the states doctors are more likely to feel that without a prescription, they're not actually doing anything. Doctors here certainly aren't drug pushers, I think it's a combination of not being in big pharma's pockets and viewing them as a crutch that limits actual treatment. Even long term drugs like SSRIs are fully expected to be combo'd with therapy and used for like a year or so.

As for the ease of getting a script I'd say opiates are the easiest to get. If you have a sprained joint, small bone break, etc, it's easy to get some percs. Benzos are likely the next harder one to get. Amphetamines are definitely the hardest thing to get, maybe easier than Dilaudid or Fentanyl, but for regular drugs they're very restricted.

You're absolute right. Doctors here are in the pockets of Big Pharma, actually the pharmaceutical industry is disgustingly powerful here. Some doctors aren't, but many are; most doctor's offices are full of pens and clipboards and other materials supplied by the pharmaceutical reps, and they receive kickbacks from the companies whenever they prescribe the medications. I believe the intention by those at the top of the control structure purposely want Americans drugged up and addicted, so they are easier to control and are produce a steady income for Big Pharma. It's sick.

 

[xammy]

I'd love to write a trip report but im in no condition to do it now

Maybe I should try that tomorrow in a Word document or something, might be easier to write it in Finnish first.. but translating it into english could be tricky

 

[Xorkoth]

Yeah write one up! I usually write them in Notepad or another plain text editor just because that's what Bluelight is, Word documents might copy in funny. My advice is to write some brief notes right now, while it's fresh, and then compose it into a report tomorrow when you're sober. Sometimes I write trip reports while I';m still tripping but that's usually on stuff like DOC which adds to my writing/communication abilities, unlike MXE which certainly does not.

I look forward to reading it!

 

[pharmakos]

Just wrote and posted my trip report from my experience last night, mainly to provide an account of some worrisome side effects. Also submitted to Erowid. I am tired of writing now but I will also work on my 2C-I + 2C-T-21 experience from the other day, that one will reflect a more fun experience.

i'm gonna log on my old erowid crew member account and go triage that trip report for you :D

 

[Xorkoth]

Nice man, thanks Technically I could too as the Erowid author submission page isn't working so I had to submit it as a regular person so it's not linked to my login. However I don't remember how to login, it's been so long, plus that would be pretty sketchy of me. :D

 

[pharmakos]

doh

 

[Roger&Me]

You're absolute right. Doctors here are in the pockets of Big Pharma, actually the pharmaceutical industry is disgustingly powerful here. Some doctors aren't, but many are; most doctor's offices are full of pens and clipboards and other materials supplied by the pharmaceutical reps, and they receive kickbacks from the companies whenever they prescribe the medications. I believe the intention by those at the top of the control structure purposely want Americans drugged up and addicted, so they are easier to control and are produce a steady income for Big Pharma. It's sick.

i think what you're saying is partially true, xorks. but big pharma also does a lot of good for the world too. i used to work in big-pharma sponsored medicinal chemistry research and i'm really proud of the work i did, it was dangerous and potentially exposed me to a lot of carcinogenic crap on a daily basis, but i felt like i was actually contributing to the greater good. just think about what a scary place the world would be if we didn't have antibiotics, for example. or anesthetics, or painkillers. privatized pharmaceutical research has done some amazing things to ease suffering and better the human condition.

but sure, big pharma has many shady business practices that i think should be regulated against. but the cause of that isn't the malicious seeking of control by any type of power structure imho, its born out of economic factors. i mean, imagine trying to run a business that has overhead in the trillions of dollars. it seems like shady business is almost inevitable, because when that much money is on the table, the cost of failure would be catastrophic to the entire world economy. they absolutely cannot fail at recouping those expenditures. so they do whatever they have to do to report profits every quarter. as consumers, people need to be aware of that and do their best to educate themselves and to search hard to find a doctor that they trust and can really have an open dialogue about their health with. a good doctor that practices evidence-based, rational medicine will act like a shield from those unsavory practices that have infiltrated the health care industry.

i'm not saying doctors like that are necessarily easy to find, but i'm willing to bet you could probably find at least one in any given community. allopathic medicine still, at least in theory, rigorously trains doctors to approach the practice of medicine rationally and with compassion for their patients. its just that a lot of doctors seem to get sort of corrupted by the business side of their profession and lose touch with that.

lol you can tell i'm fucking spun, i could write about anything for any length of time with amphetamine :D

 

[xammy]

I smoked a tiny bowl and made some notes Xork, thanks

guys, this song is so uplifting, dont you think?

 

[Xorkoth]

I certainly think that most of the people involved in the industry, doctors and businessmen aside, do not have nefarious intentions. However I truly believe that the people at the head are reaping profits knowing that they are having a negative effect on the world through their greed. It's the same money disease that affects so many of the movers and shakers of the world: greed at the expense of anything else, people who are already billionaires doing whatever it takes to accumulate even MORE billions that they will NEVER need. I believe it's the number 1 problem in the world today.

 

[xammy]

Hahah I found this old photo of me, we got a winner

NSFW:

 

[pharmakos]

^ gonna listen to that when i trip tonight xammy






so guys, i lost my ipod that night that i got frostbite. i've searched all over my house for it quite a few times. that blackout that i mentioned having last weekend, where i came to and my table and chairs were turned over? pretty sure i was trying to find my ipod when i was doing all that.

well i just found the fucking thing, and i feel so stupid about the spot it was at lol... my computer chair is in front of a sliding glass door that leads to our sun room.... we keep the sun room sealed up in the winter though, because the insulation back there is pretty bad.... there's big full length blinds that we keep drawn over the doors too.... well today the sun was shining in that back room pretty nicely, so i pulled back the blinds and went in there for the first time in a while.

turns out the ipod was behind the blinds, leaning against the sun room door.... literally one foot behind my computer chair. lololol. god i'm dumb.

 

[Solipsis]

i had to bite my tongue to keep from loling. but i mean its almost kinda true tho, people abuse it all the time but the situation rarely ends up worse than just feeling super sketched out and then finally crashing for a long time. i've never seen it actually cause considerable harm to people, like with meth.

Are you only speaking for the US? If not:

I guess the perspective from the US is skewed just like the perspective from us in Europe is skewed in a different and almost opposite way. There are plenty of amphetamine addicts here - I've been in rehab with them, it may be a little less potent / brutal compared to methamp but it fulfills almost the exact same purpose and I believe it gets abused for reasons and in ways that are virtually the same. Maybe except for the practical: regular amph is rarely smoked by users here, but all the other ROAs are observed for both drugs if I'm not mistaken.
We have hardly any meth addicts here, but yeah of course we hardly have any meth here.
American culture seems to be conditioned to see meth as the standard / epitome and most obvious basic stimulant of abuse. There are different motivations going on I think, when comparing (sub)cultures where junkies are using meth next to crack and heroin etc, and (sub)cultures where adderall is abused. People who are really on a quest to get fucking high would be expected to seek out something like meth, if not immediately then they are likely to eventually. It's just considered the best or most obvious option.
We here are instead conditioned to see amphetamine as THE stimulant. We have become accustomed to it and it plays its role effective enough not to cause there to be a quickly rising demand for meth. The role it plays in society seems similar to me, though regardless of socioeconomic factors, there proportionately may be more rats....err I mean people addicted to meth than to amph because it has more potent properties.

Other things that may matter are that amphetamine seems to be dirt cheap compared to meth, it's ridiculous.

@Xammy: hehe nice pic, looks a tiny bit like some white cotton candy is trying to facehug you to lay eggs in your chest after which jumbo size cotton candy would erupt from your chest.

 

[Roger&Me]

yeah you're right. amphetamine is definitely abusable, which is why it made me lol at the time when my psych said that

but i mean, meth gets you high as shit, whereas amph doesn't even come close to doing that. being really high on meth is like rolling balls and makes you crazy, and its so much easier to stay up for a week on meth than regular amph.

for some reason i've never seen people go that far overboard with pharm adderall, i think its just probably the demographic that is likely to use pharm adderall has different behavioral [something something insert big words here lol] as ppl who are likely to use amph illicitly. maybe?

 

[pharmakos]

i used to work in big-pharma sponsored medicinal chemistry research and i'm really proud of the work i did, it was dangerous and potentially exposed me to a lot of carcinogenic crap on a daily basis, but i felt like i was actually contributing to the greater good.

that's basically my dream job at the moment. i think i have a pretty good understanding of the educational background needed for such work (and heck, i already have way more knowledge of this field than the average lay man does, though i'm sure not nearly as much as you), but just to double check -- heavy amount of chemistry and biology, with a spattering of computer science is what would be needed to start out in the R&D side of the pharma industry, aye?

 

[Xorkoth]

Meth is so big here also because it's very easy to make... almost all meth around here is made by someone at their home, often a redneck in their shed. I am not aware of how the regular amphetamine is created in Europe.

Nice to put as face to the name, xammy. I must say, the photo looks xamiferous.

 

[Roger&Me]

that's basically my dream job at the moment. i think i have a pretty good understanding of the educational background needed for such work (and heck, i already have way more knowledge of this field than the average lay man does, though i'm sure not nearly as much as you), but just to double check -- heavy amount of chemistry and biology, with a spattering of computer science is what would be needed to start out in the R&D side of the pharma industry, aye?

yeah you really need to have a chem B.S. at least to get a lowly technician job, or be working towards one and have lots of lab experience working in a prof's lab and good references and stuff (that's what i did). biology is not really necessary for chemistry work, but you do get the basics of bio/pharm in medicinal chemistry classes. basically you need couple semesters of gen chem, couple semesters of org chem, advanced orgo, advanced inorgo, couple semester of p-chem, 1 semester biochem, quant analysis, instrumental analysis, an elective like medicinal chem, and independent research. plus 2 semester physics, 3 semester calc, and 1 semester diff eq. that's usually the core curriculum for most chem b.s. programs

its really hard to get a job with a chem b.s. though, nowadays the chem job market is really shitty. most jobs, even ones that aren't that good, like analytical work that used to be done by B.S. people, require a phd now. and if you want to actually be an r&d chemist in big pharma with your own lab (what my dream used to be) you basically need to have a phd from a place like MIT, scripps, harvard, etc. and then do a few prestigious postdocs, like NIH fellowships or equivalent.

that's basically why i got out of the field. it was just insane, to get the job i wanted i would have had to go to school for another 5-8 years and become like one of the top 5 people in my field in the world. just nutterbutters and not worth it, because you can end up putting in an incredible amount of work for terrible pay if you fail to make it into that very highest echelon. if this were the early to mid 90's, i would say go for it, the jobs used to be there... but not really any more. so many have gone to china or just been eliminated altogether after the '08 GFC.

 

[Solipsis]

yeah you're right. amphetamine is definitely abusable, which is why it made me lol at the time when my psych said that

but i mean, meth gets you high as shit, whereas amph doesn't even come close to doing that. being really high on meth is like rolling balls and makes you crazy, and its so much easier to stay up for a week on meth than regular amph.

for some reason i've never seen people go that far overboard with pharm adderall, i think its just probably the demographic that is likely to use pharm adderall has different behavioral [something something insert big words here lol] as ppl who are likely to use amph illicitly. maybe?

I can totally see how that wouldn't make much sense to you or others around you, but with amphetamine in powder form people lose count very easily, eyeballing it is the norm. Which is made considerably less risky by the fact that the average potency of street amph is only about 15%, but that doesn't mean that you can't just keep going at it anyway. Which in a way could make a person get used to going through big amounts of powder relatively more easily.
But yes, meth has an extra turbo boost expansion on it, you sure are right. But I just wanna say don't say or suggest that they are in a different league too hastily.

Like you, I can only guess as to the exact set of reasons why people don't go postal with pharm adderall abuse as much. I have pretty much the same suspicion you have, I formulated it "There are different motivations going on I think, when comparing (sub)cultures where junkies are using meth next to crack and heroin etc, and (sub)cultures where adderall is abused." We must be on to something. ;D

I imagine the typical adderall abuser to be a senior high school or college student. Even though there was a long long history of the syndrome being observed but apparently described only vaguely, ADD and ADHD diagnoses as a so-called concept are a relatively new development (the '80s). A little while after that the number of diagnoses being made skyrocketed and it became a kind of controversial cultural phenomenon. Still, I think the main focus was on the young generation of that time. Don't you think that it became an embedded cultural phenomenon most of all of that generation which would mean that they are probably much more likely to be aware of it being all around them, they probably relatively know plenty of people who have a script, and they would have it available to them best? Combined with it having turned into something normal and acceptable, and much more an inextricable part of their collective lives?

 

[pharmakos]

yeah you really need to have a chem B.S. at least to get a lowly technician job, or be working towards one and have lots of lab experience working in a prof's lab and good references and stuff (that's what i did). biology is not really necessary for chemistry work, but you do get the basics of bio/pharm in medicinal chemistry classes. basically you need couple semesters of gen chem, couple semesters of org chem, advanced orgo, advanced inorgo, couple semester of p-chem, quant analysis, instrumental analysis, an elective like medicinal chem, and independent research. plus 2 semester physics, 3 semester calc, and 1 semester diff eq. that's usually the core curriculum for most chem b.s. programs

its really hard to get a job with a chem b.s. though, nowadays the chem job market is really shitty. most jobs, even ones that aren't that good, like analytical work that used to be done by B.S. people, require a phd now. and if you want to actually be an r&d chemist in big pharma with your own lab (what my dream used to be) you basically need to have a phd from a place like MIT, scripps, harvard, etc. and then do a few prestigious postdocs, like NIH fellowships or equivalent.

that's basically why i got out of the field. it was just insane, to get the job i wanted i would have had to go to school for another 5-8 years and become like one of the top 5 people in my field in the world. just nutterbutters and not worth it, because you can end up putting in an incredible amount of work for terrible pay if you fail to make it into that very highest echelon. if this were the early to mid 90's, i would say go for it, the jobs used to be there... but not really any more. so many have gone to china or just been eliminated altogether after the '08 GFC.

that's depressing




my other dream job would be to work for a major university as a combo research/professor, like David Nichols at Purdue.

again tho i'd imagine you'd run into the same problem of -- "to actually be successful you'd have to be one of the best people in the world at what you do"

 

[Roger&Me]

yeah unfortunately even moreso for professor jobs. they'll have like 1 opening and get 5,000 applications, all well- or even over-qualified applicants

indeed, very depressing. and the current state of basic research is suffering as a result of it. those who can are flocking out of chemistry jobs and into the currently booming consumer tech and data industries

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

lol i just took some vyvanse

"i don't always take vyvanse, but when i do i wait until 5 in the evening to take my dose and stay up all night fiddling with bullshit"

That's how the pros do it. Re: amp Rx in the US, my baseless assumption is that it's a case of kids getting it thrown at them, and adults being treated with suspicion. Personally, I would never fish for meds.

i think i do exhibit a thompson-like approach to the psychedelic experience, and life in general... its not even the approach that i necessarily most identify with

I wouldn't identify with him most either, but that's just in our heads. Ya'know how it goes, "We are what we do, not what we say."

kesey's group, on the other hand, had a much lighter approach to psychedelia. not that they didn't exhibit hedonistic tendencies, but they seemed to approach hedonism much less self-destructively than Thompson. i would be hesitant to put Kesey's faction in the secular-responsible category though, as they made boundary-pushing a sort of life's calling. and they were known to abuse stimulants quite a bit towards the end of that era.

There should be room for that kinda differention without adding a z-axis, it's a spectrum not just static positions of (-1, 1);(1,1);(1,-1);(-1,-1).

Example: x<0 = Secular; x>0 = Spiritual; y<0 = Revelrous; y>0 = Responsible; Thompson, Kesey, Leary, Shulgin
(-x_T,-y_T) < (-x_K,-y_K); (x_L, -y_L); (-x_S, y_S)​

*further pondering*
I'm unhappy with it, the y-axis is mislabeled. Perhaps a better way of putting it, taking into account your light/dark vibesiness, would be Constructive-Deconstructive? We could apply that to the individual, as with Kesey et al. v. Thompson, or to social institutions, as with Shulgin v. Leary. While Thompson's (-y) was already self-evident, the new labeling makes it clear that the Pranksters are there too. I would be loath to call them constructive, being careful to avoid conflating "constructive" and "innovative". In fact, outside the scientist-types, the saints of psychedelia are nigh-all deconstructive. Individually manifest as a transition from drug use as a means to an end, to drug as an end per se; socially exemplified by folks who're quick to trash the entire system, but have nothin' to replace it with besides slogans and buzzwords.

Unsure about x-axis, it seems reasonable in passing. Given my designations, it would vary from methodological naturalism to gobbledygook, but that might be too simplistic. How about Rational-Folkloric?

I'm using it in a way that hallucinations aren't very prevalent, but I did already have one night of missed sleep and some paranoid auditory hallucinations; amp > methamp; I've found the best ROA to get what the meth high really is, is vaporizing; I have a raw spot on my hoo-hoo-dilley from masturbating too much on meth

• Wait, you're hearing things after 1 night? I thought that was like day 4 or 5 awake level stuff. Maybe you've just sensitized yourself to the psychotic shit.
• I've only used amphetamine 4 times. Have no special fondness for it, shorter oral duration and lack of toxicity make it theoretically interesting.
• Ewwww, no. IME vaped meth is like, feel good for 2 hours, spend next 24 avoiding comedown. And that comedown is brutal.
• Been there done that, haha, happened during a pseudo-blackout thing (day 3 awake). Methamp stopped exerting a pro-libidinous effect at some point, but whatever, it wasn't as enjoyable as hypomanic hypersexuality anyway.

I also love Hemingways work.

He's a personal fav, also Hermann Hesse, Mark Twain...I'll keep my list at a short three.