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Alcohol Vs. Hard Drugs

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A person can drink a can beer or a glass of wine or even a shot of some of those stronger drinks (such as vodka), without becoming intoxicated.

Heroin is much more dangerous than alcohol, because while both drugs can cause some fatal overdoses (unlike pot), the risk of a heroin overdose is far more higher and likely than the risk of an alcohol overdose.


Almost nobody can use harder drugs without becoming an addict

Lets say for the sake of this argument, you get drunk on 50ml of pure ethanol. 1 shot vodka @ 40% is 10ml. You're basically saying you can take 1/5 th of the dose for this specific drug and not get intoxicated. I honestly don't feel a thing on say, 40mg of dxm, MDMA etc. but i would on 200mg of both, the DXM may be subtle a very light 2nd plateau maybe, but it's an intoxicated feeling. Alcohol's not special at all in this case, except that it is available in these small doses due to it's legality, which is entirely possible to do with a set of scales anyway.

Erowid gives Heroin a top dosage of 15mg pure, IV for a nontolerant user. Wikipedia gives 75mg as the low end of ld50
I estimate I can drink probably 140g of EtOH pure and be blackout drunk. A friend of mine, got hospitalised and technically overdosed on 300g of pure EtOh (probably more, to be fair)
Increasing Heroin's dosage by 100% probably won't kill the user, but Alcohol might. The only reason Heroin might cause proportionally more overdoses is because of the purity issues, with varying quantities no one really knows how much they're getting, again due to legality issues. Also, no one wants to reach the top end of alcohol, it's not that euphoric any higher than when you're tipsy imo.

'nobody can use harder drugs without becoming addicted' .... no. sorry, plenty of people use these 'harder drugs' without ever having to use again, they might use again but then we reach the definition of addiction. I know people that just love coke, but they never sit at home thinking 'damn I should get some coke'. A lot of people will also class alcohol as a harder drug, so we're just comparing hard vs hard.
 
Lets say for the sake of this argument, you get drunk on 50ml of pure ethanol. 1 shot vodka @ 40% is 10ml. You're basically saying you can take 1/5 th of the dose for this specific drug and not get intoxicated. I honestly don't feel a thing on say, 40mg of dxm, MDMA etc. but i would on 200mg of both, the DXM may be subtle a very light 2nd plateau maybe, but it's an intoxicated feeling. Alcohol's not special at all in this case, except that it is available in these small doses due to it's legality, which is entirely possible to do with a set of scales anyway.

Erowid gives Heroin a top dosage of 15mg pure, IV for a nontolerant user. Wikipedia gives 75mg as the low end of ld50
I estimate I can drink probably 140g of EtOH pure and be blackout drunk. A friend of mine, got hospitalised and technically overdosed on 300g of pure EtOh (probably more, to be fair)
Increasing Heroin's dosage by 100% probably won't kill the user, but Alcohol might. The only reason Heroin might cause proportionally more overdoses is because of the purity issues, with varying quantities no one really knows how much they're getting, again due to legality issues. Also, no one wants to reach the top end of alcohol, it's not that euphoric any higher than when you're tipsy imo.

'nobody can use harder drugs without becoming addicted' .... no. sorry, plenty of people use these 'harder drugs' without ever having to use again, they might use again but then we reach the definition of addiction. I know people that just love coke, but they never sit at home thinking 'damn I should get some coke'. A lot of people will also class alcohol as a harder drug, so we're just comparing hard vs hard.

Yes, I acknowledge that some people do harder drugs without ever becoming addicts and dependent on them, but that's not true for the majority of those people. Those harder drugs have much higher rates of addiction than alcohol does. For most people, those harder drugs are very addictive. The addiction rates are this.

For Cocaine-it's about 70-75%
For Crystal Meth-it's about 90%

For alcohol, I heard that these addiction rates are anywhere from 10% to somewhere around 16% or maybe a little bit higher or lower than that. Alcohol is far less addictive than those harder drugs are.

Also, the risk of death from short term usage is much higher with those harder drugs than it is with alcohol (which is partially why I wouldn't consider alcohol to be a harder drug). Yes, an alcohol overdose is very possible, however, there's no risk of death just from having a glass of wine or some beer or even a shot of some stronger drinks (such as vodka, rum, whiskey, scotch, or those hard liquors), but somebody can unpredictably have a heart attack just after trying out cocaine, even for the first time, and ecstasy can cause people to die just after taking one pill, which makes it a very risky and unpredictable drug. Alcohol, which is a very dangerous drug, is not as risky in short term usage, as something such as cocaine or ecstasy is. Even without an overdose, cocaine or ecstasy can kill somebody, just from some short term usage. Those drugs are extremely risky, they're far more riskier than alcohol is.

I'm not trying to minimize the dangers of alcohol abuse in any way, shape, or form. What I'm trying to do it to prove that those harder drugs such as cocaine and ecstasy are far more worse and dangerous than alcohol is. I'm mainly trying to highlight, or to emphasize, the dangers of those harder drugs.
 
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The thing with alcohol and smoking (weed or nicotine) is that you can continuously consume for long periods. You can space out the experience quite easily.

This is actually in my opinion a function of the illegal nature of the market. When a substance is illegal, users looking for a more casual experience will typically avoid it (casual users will more likely worry about legality etc.). Therefore the marketplace responds by only producing very strong versions, which will more likely lead to health problems and addiction issues. (It helps that strong versions are easier to transport.)

For instance, take cocaine. We know that this is damaging and addictive. But, in contrast, there's coca tea. Made from the same plant source as cocaine, coca tea has a small amount of the alkaloids which cocaine is made from, but that's not enough to do anything but mildly stimulate. Coca tea reportedly is not addictive at all. (Actually I've read coca tea is *healthy* for you due to various other flavonoids in the tea.)

Some chemicals are probably unsuited for a more casual treatment (eg poppy tea apparently is not too healthy and is addictive). The big one I've thought would be interesting is LSD, mushrooms, or another similar psychedelic. If one could make the ingestion casual and gradual (eg the active compound mixed into a drink of some sort), then it would be easier to "low dose" this as a more casual social drug. (In my experience, low doses of these compounds are far preferable to the hallucinogenic dose -- too much confusion with many of them at high doses.) Likewise, low dose MDMA is reported to be a nice social lubricant -- maybe the health hazards of MDMA would be much less if one's not whacking your brain with a large amount of it at once.

One thing I've heard about with the Colorado / Washington legalization is that demand is starting to increase for low-THC strands. Many people want a more casual stone and do *not* want to get blitzed with one puff.

This is something you have to keep in mind when talking about most drugs. Based on current usage, you can't compare how people do coke or ecstasy with someone sipping a beer or wine. A better point of comparison would be to compare the drug with, say, doing 5 shots of strong liquor at once. If you put it that way, I think alcohol compares rather unfavorably with many other illegal drugs.
 
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Drugs are considered hard drugs because of self inflicted damage to the physical health...

Alcohol, nicotine, cocaine and heroin actually have fairly close or alcohol has them beat...

Alcohol, is much more disastrous health wise than heroin, and will cause the same neglect to taking care of ones self...

Therefore these can’t be put in different boats, cause they all can endanger health, destroy kidneys, etc...

Alcohol is seriously addictive... There is no downing that.

By whom? The people who actually research these things, not our double crossing government... You can’t pay for result and make them true...
 
I don't necessarily believe it should be classified higher (i.e. made illegal) but I do think that either alcohol should be made illegal or a whole bunch of other drugs should be made legal. You can make a strong case - and indeed many have - for alcohol being more addictive and harmful than a number of the typical illegal drugs.

It's the hypocrisy of current legal system in many countries that bothers me.

So, effectively, yes, I agree.
 
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Alcohol is cheap and can be bought in a store from normal people. Drugs demand time and money to actually obtain them, and they are often sold by dangerous people (in dangerous places). As your time, money and safety are violated (over time) by drugs, the quality of your life goes down and you have more of a desire to keep self-medicating. When your society shuns you, this desire grows even more.

People live normal lives on Rx morphine or methamphetamine all around us, just like a lot of alcoholics function. It is very hard to compare a legal drug with an illegal one in terms of addiction (which has physical and psychological components, the latter made worse by the conditions around the drug).
 
Problem with making it illegal is that alcohol is so damned easy to make that anyone who wishes to drink it could make it at home. All you need is something with sugar in it and yeast. Now it won't taste good but it will get you drunk.
 
Alcohol is cheap and can be bought in a store from normal people. Drugs demand time and money to actually obtain them, and they are often sold by dangerous people (in dangerous places). As your time, money and safety are violated (over time) by drugs, the quality of your life goes down and you have more of a desire to keep self-medicating. When your society shuns you, this desire grows even more.

People live normal lives on Rx morphine or methamphetamine all around us, just like a lot of alcoholics function. It is very hard to compare a legal drug with an illegal one in terms of addiction (which has physical and psychological components, the latter made worse by the conditions around the drug).

This was going to be my argument. Most of the problems associated with heroin use for example is due to availability. If people had access to heroin like they do for alcohol then they would be functioning addicts just like there are many functioning alcoholics.

Why do I consider alcohol a 'hard drug?'
You can die from the withdrawals, and it is very toxic, having negative affects on various parts of the body and mind. Opioids are fairly safe when taken in known doses, and don't have much of a negative affect on the body other than constipation.

You can't say that somebody isn't addicted to alcohol when they are drinking moderately throughout the week, and then maybe go harder on the weekends. That's basically how most heroin users would be if it were available like that, and that's how they are in places where it is available like that. They go to the clinic during the week and then go on with their lives after they dose, then probably have some extra fun a few days a week.

Also, alcohol is somewhat self limiting due to how hard of a drug it is. People are functioning alcoholics because it's such a hard drug that they can't abuse it daily without the negative affects becoming too damaging to allow them to continue drinking without it really becoming a problem.

So my argument is that given the same cost and availability, 'hard drug' users would be functioning just fine in society, just like those who are enrolled in clinics and get a daily dose at an affordable rate. Also as RedLeader pointed out, there are functioning users of these drugs in people that have prescriptions for them, and have their own private stash of the drugs without having to go out of their way to obtain it, so nobody knows about their use.

It's often said that the problem with hard drugs is not the drug itself, but obtaining the drug. Most heroin addicts only run into problems when they cannot safely obtain the drug at low cost, so then may have to do illegal things to obtain the drug, which itself is illegal.

When I was homeless the majority of the other homeless people were alcoholics, so that drug was by far the most commonly used. These people stole to get the drug, and would have horrible withdrawal symptoms if they couldn't get it. Then when they could get it, they would get belligerent and cause all sorts of disturbances and problems to the left of me, making their habit seem a lot worse than the heroin addict to the right of me that would peacefully be nodding out and/or talking nicely and being social while under the influence.

I know that my post was kind of all over the place, but the main point is that given the same availability, alcohol users would appear to be worse off than most opiate users at least. Meth and crack users show why those drugs are considered hard though, but put a person on a 3 day binge of alcohol next to a person on a 3 day binge of meth and they will be acting just as crazy as one another.

I'm going to move this thread to drug culture.

OD --> DC
 
Alcohol is legal to obtain, so the lifestyle is very different to how someone who uses illegal drugs would live. This hides it, and gives it an advantage to look like a more softer drug when in reality it is one of the hardest. Because it is so socially accepted and legal, an alcoholic would not be 1) socially isolated 2) mixing with criminals 3) trying to keep use secret 4) and would not have the mental baggage of risking WD, like a heroin user who buys off the street will (always a chance the dealer will not be around, alcohol you just go to the store, so you basically have no stress about sudden WD. These examples alone, are benefits only because it is legal. If heroin was legal, it would have the same benefits.

Physically, alcohol destroys the body. It destroys the liver, kidneys and other organs. You can get alcohol poisoning and die. You can die from withdrawals. Opiate withdrawal can not kill you. Alcohol WD can. It is one of the hardest drugs on the body. Meth can be considered worse, because of the lack of sleep and compulsive use it is notorious for. If you keep on drinking alcohol, not sleep and frequently dose, you will look just as scattered. It is a very hard drug.

Alcohol has such a heavy load and hangover on the body, it is hard to always use as much as you can and be functional.

Someone who does heroin will just sit in one spot, nodding out. Someone on amphetamine will be talking non-stop. Someone on weed will be too paranoid to do anything dangerous and will jsut play video games. Someone on alcohol will do anything they feel like without worry. They will punch and be very violent without thinking. They will drive very dangeriously and basically have very low inhibitions, together with the knoweledge it is legal, and the person can be very confident and do things they normally would not. Violence and alcohol, however, go together like bread and butter. This is why alcohol is hard. Its effects on an individual can be devastating.

Alcoholics are known to be violent towards their families, be abusive and careless. It is just as addictive as any other drug. What makes it different to anything else and less addictive? It is one of the hardest drugs. The only reason it looks softer are because of the lifestyle it affords by being legal.

Also besides the fact alcohol can kill you by poisoining, because it is legal, it is high grade, which is why you wont get any nasty suprises and get a heart attack. With illegal drugs, you always run the risk of having other adulterants in the substance. The MDMA pill may not be MDMA, and the person taking the pill may die like you stated above. But this only occurs because criminals are cooking the drugs and not licensed companies/pharmacies.
 
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i'm too lazy to go get the studies to back this up right now but the majority of people who try any drug do not become addicted to it. There's no way in hell alcohol should be illegal, prohibition caused so many issues that it is nonsensical to do something like that. However, heroin, crack, coke, methamp (why do people pick on methamp so much?) should be treated the same. Alcohol is far more addictive and dangerous than most drugs, methamphetamine might have it beat but it's not poisonous at least.

The majority of illicit drugs won't give you cancer either; yet alcohol and tobacco will. Most drugs also don't destroy your liver. OP your argument is not sound or thought out at all. You are sticking to the status quo so hard, maybe it makes you feel warm and safe but open your mind a bit.

you have no idea how many people use opiates/benzos/crack/methamp every day too, because they function on it just like an alcoholic would tho probably better. I functioned as a poly drug addict for long periods of time and not once did anyone ask me if i were on drugs or drunk.

this ignorant attitude kind of pisses me off, or really causes me rage but i don't think you'll ever see the light, neither will the majority of society and you will just keep making the same mistakes and never really understand the other side. I'll just take some etizolam and dexedrine and go study my ass off instead of wasting your/my time.
 
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Such as which specific drugs are you talking about?

Well, you mentioned crystal methamphetamine. That is actually available in prescription form to treat ADHD (under the trade name Desoxyn), 5 or 10mg pills from what I can Google.

It's rarely prescribed for obvious reasons (including the negative stigma of methamphetamine), but Desoxyn has helped some without destroying their health, causing addiction, or all the issues associated with street users using impure products at 10-20 times the medical dose.

Dosage and frequency of use really is key to almost every drug. I don't like the terms "soft" and "hard" for this reason. Even the relatively safe cannabis has some issues with high frequency, high dose use (mostly mental -- paranoia type issues and a debated schizophrenia link).
 
Alcohol is a disaster and imo should be schedule 1 along with Heroin, Meth & crack. Consequently pot should be virtually unregulated the way alcohol is now. Alcohol is a toxic poison that has a lethal dose. Pot is a garden herb like parsley or oregano. It's all Nixon's fault.
 
First of all, the vast majority of alcohol users can drink it without ever becoming physically addicted to it. That statement cannot be said about heroin, crack, cocaine, or crystal methamphetamine. Most (or at the very least a very big percentage) of Americans have tried out an alcohol beverage at least once during their lifetimes, yet only about less than 10% of them are all alcoholics (it's only somewhere around 17.6 million alcoholics out of somewhere around 300 million Americans. Actually, the truth is that somewhere around 90% of the users of crystal methamphetamines becomes addicts, and those statistics for the addiction rates of crack and cocaine is somewhere around 70-76%. Alcohol is far less addictive than those harder drugs. That's exactly why I consider alcohol to be a softer drug.

Also, you stated this.

"Physically, alcohol destroys the body. It destroys the liver, kidneys and other organs."

That only happens if you misuse the substance, and become somebody that is a heavy drinker. If it's taken in some smaller doses, then alcohol won't destroy your liver. The long term-moderate consumption of alcohol does not harm somebody's liver, and some studies show us that moderate drinking may actually be somewhat beneficial for somebody's liver, as well as their longevity.

http://www.nextnature.net/2012/01/tiny-amounts-of-alcohol-might-extend-life/

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/01/20/alcohol_doubles_lifespan/

And, which seems to be the most ironic of them all.

http://blog.sethroberts.net/2012/04/01/moderate-alcohol-consumption-associated-with-less-cirrhosis/

http://www.thefix.com/content/moderate-drinking-liver-disease9998

http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/InTheNews/MedicalReports/Other/1040129381.html

http://www.webmd.com/digestive-diso...hol-may-boost-livers-ability-to-repair-itself

http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/InTheNews/MedicalReports/Other/1063912275.html

Sure, even too much water or salt can be toxic. The fact that alcohol poisoning happens, that does not make alcohol an inherently poisonous substance. Alcohol can either be a toxic substance, or it can also be a tonic substance, which all depends on how that substance is used.

I don't see how addiction rate can determine if a drug should be considered 'hard' or 'soft.' It's also difficult to compare addiction rates between drugs that are illegal vs legal. A lot of people that try a drug once don't care for it, so if the same amount of people that tried alcohol tried other drugs I think that the addiction rates would be closer. I also know that a lot of people that became addicted to other drugs started off abusing alcohol until they found the substance that they enjoyed more, so they are more of just addicts in general IMO. That's evident by most of them reverting back to alcohol if they cannot get access to their new DOC. So if these 'hard drugs' weren't available then alcohol would have a lot higher of an addiction rate, and in most cases alcohol would be more damaging to these people than the other drugs that they abuse. An addict is an addict, it's just that many move on from alcohol to these other drugs, which make the addiction rates of these other drugs appear to be way higher than that of alcohol.

Alcohol being beneficial is only in very small doses, like a glass of wine a few nights a week. It doesn't take much abuse for it to have negative affects on a person, and even keeping alcohol abuse to just weekends can prove to be damaging to the liver.
 
Alcohol is a disaster and imo should be schedule 1 along with Heroin, Meth & crack. Consequently pot should be virtually unregulated the way alcohol is now. Alcohol is a toxic poison that has a lethal dose. Pot is a garden herb like parsley or oregano. It's all Nixon's fault.

i never understand this position. Alcohol should not be schedule 1, look back to the prohibition of Alcohol to see why. Heroin, methamphetamine (not even schedule 1 anyway lol) and coke/crack (cocaine has medicinal uses as well) should be legalized is the point you should make. The very argument to legalize cannabis is the same argument to keep alcohol legalized, prohibition causes more harm than it does good. If prohibition didn't stop people from drinking alcohol, nothing will, which is the point of drug legalization. It's also stupid that heroin is schedule 1 yet fentanyl has medicinal uses and is in fact used all the time in medicine.

Elven warriorr needs to present some hard facts about how many people try heroin/coke/crack/methamphetamine and become addicted/not addicted and not facts about alcohol we already know. Otherwise, Elven warriorr is a simple troll at best.
 
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