Family sues Kalamazoo County for inmate death heroin withdrawl

[SteeleyJ]

Does anybody know how it feels to simultaneously kick heroin and benzos, cold turkey? I've only ever had mild benzo habits when I detoxed from heroin or methanol.

Yeah, worst experience ever. I was addicted to alprazolam at 4 - 6mg daily and oxycodone between 90-180mg a day when my grandfather died and i came back up north for a month with a short supply. Long story short - on top of the usual symptoms of both, the anxiety was crippling - panic attacks --, no sleep for days, very severe depression/ suicidal ideations, seizures. I thought i was going to die.

Duration of my use at those dosages was around 6 months of high dose oxycodone and years on benzos. Also i suppose it's not dope, but i got more addicted to cheap roxis than i ever have dope.

 

[SteeleyJ]

I eventually saw a doctor for a script and hunted down all my old pill popping friends.

 

[SteeleyJ]

I personally know someone who almost died from Morphine withdrawal. He thankfully made it to the emergency room in time after being told by a doctor that his life was in danger.

Sekio: I would have the jails carry methadone and make the addict pay a premium for it in any way possible when they get out.

This is not a bad idea

 

[23536]

flashback:

Man dies from vomit--not his own

An inmate who died inside a men’s prison in Maple Ridge last month may have consumed a lethal dose of methadone.

A man incarcerated at Fraser Regional Correctional Centre said the deceased inmate drank methadone that had been vomited up by another prisoner, a practice called “diversion” by B.C. Corrections.

“He died from drinking barf,” said the inmate, who claims the regurgitated methadone can sell for as much as $20, depending on the millilitres consumed.

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/535533-Canada-Deceased-inmate-may-have-ingested-vomit

 

[Voxide]

Should the same not apply to smokers whose shit has hit the fan? Screw them, they knew what they were getting themselves into? Let them choke and suffocate to death?

Correct.

 

[ro4eva]

^^ I presume I now understand that you firmly believe in self-accountability and responsibility for one's actions, regardless if - in this case, in this context - the recreational drug one chooses to ingest is either legal or illegal. Am I correct?

 

[bolinas]

To be fair, most people who are heroin addicts aren't going to up and die if you take their access to dope away. They may be outright miserable but if monitored for dehydration etc they shouldn't outright die.

If this is a case of her aspirating & dying face up on the floor of her cell while the guards point and laugh, there's a case there. If it's some spontaneous angel-of-death shit caused by her just collapsing and dying I think there's nothing anyone could have done in that siutuation.

What would a better course of action be? Give her some horse on the taxpayer's dime to hold her down? Require every prison and jail to carry methadone and give it out to everyone claiming to withdraw, or have a huge habit?

Should we keep calling you sekio? Or Dr. Government?

Not only did they not monitor her, the jail nurse didn't even physically LOOK at her. According to the complaint filed in US District Court, the jail's own policy was to use clonidine for severe WD, yet they did LESS THAN NOTHING by repeatedly ignoring her and her cell mate's requests. For DAYS until she DIED while she was laying in the fetal position vomiting and sweating. I understand jail isn't supposed to be a picnic, but you think these fat stupid idiot guards and nurses should be judging people to their death? Especially with your idea of what is "convenient" for the poor government staff????

 

[Voxide]

^^ I presume I now understand that you firmly believe in self-accountability and responsibility for one's actions, regardless if - in this case, in this context - the recreational drug one chooses to ingest is either legal or illegal. Am I correct?

You hit the nail on the head. It's not just drugs, but food and all lifestyle choices in general. I would be ok with legalizing all drugs under the one condition that anybody with drugs in their system be denied all forms of medical assistance. When it all boils down to it, I'd rather have safety than freedom.


Sekio makes good points. Although opiate withdrawal might be able to kill you in unique circumstances, it generally won't. Had this been a Benzo withdrawal and the inmate was ignored and ended up dying, it might be a different story.

 

[bolinas]

What an idiotic position.

If a drug is found in their system, don't take care of them? It's their choice! Their fault! THEY WANTED TO DIE!!!

Actually, in the USA, if you take someone into custody, you have a duty to take care of them. It's the law, and they violated it.

 

[Voxide]

What an idiotic position.

If a drug is found in their system, don't take care of them? It's their choice! Their fault! THEY WANTED TO DIE!!!

Actually, in the USA, if you take someone into custody, you have a duty to take care of them. It's the law, and they violated it.

That's right. And the current position is that although hard drugs like heroin are illegal, the healthcare system will still take care of you if you suffer negative health consequences from it.

They want freedom from the system, give them freedom from the system. Freedom is a 2 way road and that's a concept that few people seem to understand.

 

[bolinas]

Your are is incredibly selfish, and your libertarian ethos doesn't reflect reality. You can try to make it one, but this isn't an ideological issue at all. It's already established and written in the law. When you take someone into custody, you have to take care of them.

And aside from that, you are asking to "live and let live" with your drugs. The fact is that even YOU, the master of libertarian ethos, can and will face situations beyond your control, where you need the help of other people. Maybe even with your drugs, that you chose. You may even be in jail when this happens. When you need it, there is no substitute for it. Sometimes due to the law, and sometimes due to the selfless care of others, we get taken care of when we need it. But when someone has ample opportunity to care, a lawful duty, and yet does nothing (likely due to the same attitude as your own) it's a tragedy. This is a fucking tragedy. To impose a $75,000 financial penalty for this incredible lapse of care is too lenient in my opinion. I would have tried to penalize them for millions of dollars.

 

[Voxide]

Your are is incredibly selfish, and your libertarian ethos doesn't reflect reality. You can try to make it one, but this isn't an ideological issue at all. It's already established and written in the law. When you take someone into custody, you have to take care of them.

And aside from that, you are asking to "live and let live" with your drugs. The fact is that even YOU, the master of libertarian ethos, can and will face situations beyond your control, where you need the help of other people. Maybe even with your drugs, that you chose. You may even be in jail when this happens. When you need it, there is no substitute for it. Sometimes due to the law, and sometimes due to the selfless care of others, we get taken care of when we need it. But when someone has ample opportunity to care, a lawful duty, and yet does nothing (likely due to the same attitude as your own) it's a tragedy. This is a fucking tragedy. To impose a $75,000 financial penalty for this incredible lapse of care is too lenient in my opinion. I would have tried to penalize them for millions of dollars.

I am free to pass judgments based on my observations in life, just as you are free to do the same. Fact is, dying from heroin withdrawals is not a normal thing. Death from withdrawals due to GABA agonist drugs is a different story because they are very likely to kill you. In my opinion, it's selfish to cry about freedom and then demand help when you need it most. "It's my body, so let me do what I want". Fine. It's your body, so I will let you do what you want and then I will refuse to help since, after all, it's your body. Drug laws are the price that users must pay for society to pay for the detrimental health effects. Yeah, you'll get arrested and jailed if you're caught carrying enough heroin, but at least if you overdose, emergency services will do their bet to revive you. This is a better and more humane way of handling it than simply legalizing drugs to make them catalysts for natural selection.

 

[bolinas]

"It's my body and I can do what I want" is what everyone says when they're young. And if YOU don't want to help them, yeah, that's your choice.

In a general sense, I do the same thing. I don't stop on the street and try to help alcoholic bums even though I theoretically could. But if one was convulsing in seizures while vomiting, I would. If I can help someone to stay alive, no matter where I am or what I'm doing, I will consider it. If I'm hiking up the Himalayas and I risk my life by simply going back, I might not do it for my own self-preservation. But if there is any reasonable opportunity to help someone in desperate need, I consider it my human obligation to help them in the situation.

Translate this to fat ugly jail guards and their stupid fat nurse completely ignoring a convulsing, seizure, vomiting inmate on the floor, while they are sitting on their fat asses doing fucking nothing. Those people are despicable pieces of shit.

Sure, the nurse could have thought the same thing you did, "only GABA agonists produce fatal withdrawal symptoms, let her learn her lesson" and so forth. In my mind that only further proves what a worthless piece of shit this nurse is. Are you familiar with the Stanford Prison Experiment? Take completely normal people, put them in a jail as guards and inmates. They did this and planned to run it out for three months. But they had to end it after one week, due to brutality against the inmates. These people all knew this was an experiment, and these weren't real prisoners. This sort of treatment is some kind of human reality that we have to live with. It has come to be expected by courts and prisoners alike. The courts set standards of care because humans in a prison environment are unable to do it themselves.

YOU are trying to come up with some simple, clear ideological marker to rationalize what happened. No such thing exists in real life. People always have a duty to care, in this case a legal one.

 

[bolinas]

In my opinion, it's selfish to cry about freedom and then demand help when you need it most. "It's my body, so let me do what I want". Fine. It's your body, so I will let you do what you want and then I will refuse to help since, after all, it's your body. Drug laws are the price that users must pay for society to pay for the detrimental health effects. Yeah, you'll get arrested and jailed if you're caught carrying enough heroin, but at least if you overdose, emergency services will do their bet to revive you. This is a better and more humane way of handling it than simply legalizing drugs to make them catalysts for natural selection.

I agree it's more humane to provide emergency services than to not.

 

[ro4eva]

Fine. It's your body, so I will let you do what you want and then I will refuse to help since, after all, it's your body. Drug laws are the price that users must pay for society to pay for the detrimental health effects. Yeah, you'll get arrested and jailed if you're caught carrying enough heroin, but at least if you overdose, emergency services will do their bet to revive you. This is a better and more humane way of handling it than simply legalizing drugs to make them catalysts for natural selection.

I understand your train of thought in this regard but the fact that tobacco and ethyl alcohol are long established, advertised and socially acceptable legal highs, I (and others) feel, undermines (at the very least, the last sentence of) this argument.

 

[slimvictor]

I would be ok with legalizing all drugs under the one condition that anybody with drugs in their system be denied all forms of medical assistance.

I guess you would be prepared to define "drug" then?

 

[Voxide]

"It's my body and I can do what I want" is what everyone says when they're young. And if YOU don't want to help them, yeah, that's your choice.

In a general sense, I do the same thing. I don't stop on the street and try to help alcoholic bums even though I theoretically could. But if one was convulsing in seizures while vomiting, I would. If I can help someone to stay alive, no matter where I am or what I'm doing, I will consider it. If I'm hiking up the Himalayas and I risk my life by simply going back, I might not do it for my own self-preservation. But if there is any reasonable opportunity to help someone in desperate need, I consider it my human obligation to help them in the situation.

Translate this to fat ugly jail guards and their stupid fat nurse completely ignoring a convulsing, seizure, vomiting inmate on the floor, while they are sitting on their fat asses doing fucking nothing. Those people are despicable pieces of shit.

Sure, the nurse could have thought the same thing you did, "only GABA agonists produce fatal withdrawal symptoms, let her learn her lesson" and so forth. In my mind that only further proves what a worthless piece of shit this nurse is. Are you familiar with the Stanford Prison Experiment? Take completely normal people, put them in a jail as guards and inmates. They did this and planned to run it out for three months. But they had to end it after one week, due to brutality against the inmates. These people all knew this was an experiment, and these weren't real prisoners. This sort of treatment is some kind of human reality that we have to live with. It has come to be expected by courts and prisoners alike. The courts set standards of care because humans in a prison environment are unable to do it themselves.

YOU are trying to come up with some simple, clear ideological marker to rationalize what happened. No such thing exists in real life. People always have a duty to care, in this case a legal one.

I will give them the benefit of the doubt due to opiate withdrawal not being a likely candidate to kill someone on its own. Indeed, these are the laws and to change them would be a lengthy process, but the suit is rather unnecessary. I wish them the best of luck regardless but this isn't being done with the right intentions.

I understand your train of thought in this regard but the fact that tobacco and ethyl alcohol are long established, advertised and socially acceptable legal highs, I (and others) feel, undermines (at the very least, the last sentence of) this argument.

Both substances are horribly bad for you, but so common that we practically accept them without looking into the obvious risks. This is an issue in and of itself.

I guess you would be prepared to define "drug" then?

It's obvious I'm talking about illicit drugs. Alcohol is currently legal and relatively accepted in America, but we still provide medical services to those who drink excessively. I would personally be in favor of a complete ban, especially considering that drunk driving in this country is literally spiraling to out of control levels.

 

[slimvictor]

^ So you would make alcohol illegal, and allow anyone who overdoses on alcohol, or other illegal drugs, to die instead of helping them. Sounds like you might enjoy living in Saudi Arabia, or Iran, if only they were a little but more conservative.

But it doesn't begin to deal with the definition of "illegal drug", or precisely which users you would coldly allow to die.
What about legal research chemicals?
What about caffeine overdoses?
What about overdoses of prescribed pharms? What if they appear to be accidental? What if we can't tell? What if it is due to a combination of pharms? What if the person is unconscious, and we don't know if it was their doctor's mistake, or their own, or a suicide attempt?
What about children who eat vitamins with iron? (A leading cause of death in children of certain ages)
What about children who eat their parents' cocaine?
What about 16-year olds who find their parents' drugs (either illegal or prescribed) and use them without permission, overdosing?
What if it is not a 16-year old, but a 12-year old? A 9-year old?
Are you going to let all those people die?

You said something about my argument being asinine, but you haven't responded in a careful way.
Your definition of what is moral seems to be based 100% on what is legal.
People who think that way make me do numerous hershey's squirts in my undies.
They lack the ability to define morality for themselves - a prerequisite to leading a thinking life, imo - and rely on the government to define morality for them.

In any case, I don't really want specific answers to the questions I posed above, not least because any answers you give will necessarily be biased and silly.
I am trying to make the point that it is not easy to define "drugs", and also that your apparent complete lack of human empathy leads to untenable or ridiculous philosophical positions, and is really, really sad.

 

[Voxide]

^ So you would make alcohol illegal, and allow anyone who overdoses on alcohol, or other illegal drugs, to die instead of helping them. Sounds like you might enjoy living in Saudi Arabia, or Iran, if only they were a little but more conservative.

But it doesn't begin to deal with the definition of "illegal drug", or precisely which users you would coldly allow to die.
What about legal research chemicals?
What about caffeine overdoses?
What about overdoses of prescribed pharms? What if they appear to be accidental? What if we can't tell? What if it is due to a combination of pharms? What if the person is unconscious, and we don't know if it was their doctor's mistake, or their own, or a suicide attempt?
What about children who eat vitamins with iron? (A leading cause of death in children of certain ages)
What about children who eat their parents' cocaine?
What about 16-year olds who find their parents' drugs (either illegal or prescribed) and use them without permission, overdosing?
What if it is not a 16-year old, but a 12-year old? A 9-year old?
Are you going to let all those people die?

You said something about my argument being asinine, but you haven't responded in a careful way.
Your definition of what is moral seems to be based 100% on what is legal.
People who think that way make me do numerous hershey's squirts in my undies.
They lack the ability to define morality for themselves - a prerequisite to leading a thinking life, imo - and rely on the government to define morality for them.

In any case, I don't really want specific answers to the questions I posed above, not least because any answers you give will necessarily be biased and silly.
I am trying to make the point that it is not easy to define "drugs", and also that your apparent complete lack of human empathy leads to untenable or ridiculous philosophical positions, and is really, really sad.

See the beginning of post #52 for a response.


I'm not saying anything of the sort. It appears you're confused. I said I wouldn't make drugs legal and make them the sole responsibility of the people handling them. The latter would simply be a condition of mine in order to make the former possible. Thing is, 95% of the population is just too stupid to use them properly. Instead I would keep them illegal and leave the emergency services intact.

 

[bolinas]

So what the fuck does your fantasy about how things should work have to do with a tragedy such as this? You're so conceited that you truly think "95% of the population is just too stupid to use them properly" yet much more than 5% of the population uses drugs on a regular basis without killing themselves. You're still stuck in your own mind trying to rationalize the fat lazy nurse's excuse. Stop being such an idiot.

Imagine that if this cunt nurse actually cared for two seconds about the people she has sworn an oath to. One person would not have died while incarcerated. One person who was forced against their will, and left without even the jail's own treatment guideline of administering Clonidine or even giving her fucking WATER in an IV after vomiting for days straight. Someone being restrained beyond their will and was unable to take care of themselves, and those around her failed to even follow their own guidelines, as well as failing to show basic human decency. And you have the nerve to say that her family suing "isn't being done with the right intentions" ? Serious negligence requires a serious penalty. You support naturally imposed penalties. Here it is. Freedom was violated and now a penalty must be assessed. The rest of your regressive and idiotic writing only clouds the issue. This has nothing to do with the stupidity of the population, or making drugs legal, or any of the other bullshit you write here. Someone must be held responsible.