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The "true nature" of the 2C's.

Yes, in one sense all things are natural, and all matter is composed of chemicals. But if I was talking in everyday speech about natural fibres or industrial chemicals, you'd have a good idea what I was talking about. I think that using "natural" as a synonym for "not made by man" is a perfectly valid sense.
 
You have a point, but in the drug sense it's used by a faction of people who claim that natural=inherently better in some way, which is just silly. Though who am I to invalidate their new age-y beliefs.
 
Oh, the naturalistic fallacy is a silly thing to believe (rule of thumb- things with "fallacy" in their name are generally silly things to believe), but by conflating that argument with a semantic one about which things are natural, I think you present an unnecessarily weak version of the case. Allow them that some drugs can be usefully referred to as natural, and attack the value judgment associated with that categorisation.
 
I believe that the periods of deep introspection which were forced upon my mind during my 2C-E experiences have caused long lasting psychological changes.(~2years and counting)

I took it about 15 times estimated over a period of about 4-5months. Never used in too abusive a way. There was maybe 2 days where I tripped back to back but the second day was always out of the blue, with friends, and fun. The majority of my trips were spent alone, which may of played a part. I found when alone I was always forced into that deep introspective place.

I think when discussing the overall "nature" of a chemical it is important for people to include their usage history. It should make it easier for others to gauge how experienced you are and what you are talking about.

4 trips 18-22mg
8 trips 12-16mg
And I experimented with low doses anywhere from 3-7mg no more than 10 times. These never amounted to much.


I believe the danger in 2ce is the fact that it can cause long lasting changes in your thought patterns. Maybe I am just susceptible to it, because I have some friends who so far love it. The things 2ce showed me were "clear headed" in the truest sense, but not necessarily "nice". Now I've found that it has invaded my way of thinking in a subtle way. It might be that this "2CE way" of analyzing things has stayed with me. It's something in me that for some reason I cannot attribute to any other psychedelic I have ever ingested. It's from the 2C.



I'm sure this sounds like nonsense but I've been reading this thread and felt the need to post it. There are others who clearly report the same thing, so it bothers me a little when people laugh at others for calling it "evil". How can you be for sure that nothings up with this chem? Maybe not evil, but can easily cause psychological problems in some people? NOT something for an inexperienced tripper..or maybe any for that matter...
 
I haven't counted the number of times or exact dosages I've used it at, but I'd call myself experienced with it, usually dose 15-25mg, dosed 30+ a couple times. I have never had changes in thought pattern lasting into the next day even. As soon as I get some sleep I'm back to normal, visual static will increase after using, especially if I do so multiple times in a week. My worst experience with the drug had me bored, and I can pretty much count on it to be an enjoyable experience (may be neutral if I'm using too frequently). I want to say I've been using it regularly, ~once a month, (sometimes more, sometimes less) for a year-ish, but I had experienced it prior to that. It was also my first psych, btw.


And our point isn't that you and the others weren't negatively affected by this chemical, or that there is a portion of people prone to such negative effects, it's that lasting negative effects can be caused by pretty much any psychedelic. It just depends on the person and circumstance. It'd be nice if we had a scientifically viable statistic to show what psychs or groups of psychs caused serious issues for whatever % of people, but we do not.
 
I just wanted to thank Op for the thread. I wouldn't have much use for this forum if we couldn't raise concerns on a harm-reduction forum.
 
OP: I haven't done a whole ton of research chems. But I have always felt that there was something off about them. I don't completely agree with everything you say, but I will agree that they don't have that natural feel to them. It's difficult for me to achieve anything with them.
 
You could have easily replaced a lot of what you said here about salvia, instead of the 2c's.

All psychedelics come with a propensity to change people, for better, or for worse. That's a fair warning to give people, but I wouldn't specifically tell people not to use 2c's, just not to over-indulge in them. That is key.
 
Captain Heroin, I follow you with the statement about most of what has been said of the 2c's can be replaced with salvia.

In my experience, I found Salvia to be extremely disturbing. It was one of the first psychs/dissociatives that I played around with, and I played around with it far too much. Previous to binging on salvia I had done mushrooms, and had wonderful experiences. Salvia ripped me out of this world, and would bring me back feeling bewildered and angry.

Worst part of it, it is sold in headshops all over the place. It is easily obtained through the internet.


All drugs can be damaging. Some drugs are just more socially accepted than others.

Being an acidhead, can be difficult sometimes, because you know the vast majority of people have never experience anything of its like, and that most of them have a negative outlook on it from the start. It can be terribly frustrating.
 
Captain.Heroin said:
You could have easily replaced a lot of what you said here about salvia, instead of the 2c's.

All psychedelics come with a propensity to change people, for better, or for worse. That's a fair warning to give people, but I wouldn't specifically tell people not to use 2c's, just not to over-indulge in them. That is key.
Click to expand...

I do say similar things about Salvia, but that's a completely different beast. Everybody who knows a thing or two about psychedelics knows that Salvia produces an intensely unpleasant experience for many, if not most of its users. Even the general public kind of knows. There's no need for a thread on how twisted Salvia is, especially considering how it's over in a matter of minutes and most people will only try it a handful of times before never touching it again. The only time I feel the need to warn people about Salvia is when they plan to use it as a recreational / party drug (like how it was commonly used when it first became popular). There's no real need to talk about it aside from that. It's completely physically safe, and the experience is earth-shatteringly intense and in-your-face and you'll understand what it's about the minute you fall into its realm. As insane a drug as it is, it's all pretty cut and dry.

My problems with the 2C's are 1) their negative side is not often discussed even though they appear to many to carry much greater and more permanent risks than other psychedelics and 2) they seem to have garnered a reputation as shallow, benign, beginner-friendly substances or "psychedelics with training wheels" as I've often heard them called which encourages the overuse of an unstudied and potentially higher risk series of drugs.

freedstar said:
I believe the danger in 2ce is the fact that it can cause long lasting changes in your thought patterns. Maybe I am just susceptible to it, because I have some friends who so far love it. The things 2ce showed me were "clear headed" in the truest sense, but not necessarily "nice". Now I've found that it has invaded my way of thinking in a subtle way. It might be that this "2CE way" of analyzing things has stayed with me. It's something in me that for some reason I cannot attribute to any other psychedelic I have ever ingested. It's from the 2C.

I'm sure this sounds like nonsense but I've been reading this thread and felt the need to post it. There are others who clearly report the same thing, so it bothers me a little when people laugh at others for calling it "evil". How can you be for sure that nothings up with this chem? Maybe not evil, but can easily cause psychological problems in some people? NOT something for an inexperienced tripper..or maybe any for that matter...
Click to expand...

Thank you for sharing, it sounds like you understand exactly where I am coming from. I knew people were going to scoff and write me off as an idiot who was irresponsible or doesn't know how to handle a psychedelic, but I don't care. I just wanted to get this out there and give other users something to mull over so that they may give these chemicals some much-deserved caution and avoid falling into the same place that you and I have.
 
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Captain.Heroin said:
You could have easily replaced a lot of what you said here about salvia, instead of the 2c's.

All psychedelics come with a propensity to change people, for better, or for worse. That's a fair warning to give people, but I wouldn't specifically tell people not to use 2c's, just not to over-indulge in them. That is key.
Click to expand...

Your right I here people saying some of the same stuff about salvia. I think my problem now lies with the fact that I still see people recommending 2C-E for first time trippers.

I don't see this kind of long lasting damage being done by something like 4-aco-dmt. I once had a 40mg+ trip that was pure hell due to my situation and should of been a train wreck. It felt like all I could do was hold on and when I came down all I felt was a little shocked. This was the kind of trip where I was half sure I wouldn't come out of it and ever be the same, but part of me knew this is a common thing to feel and to just wait it out. There were no long term effects or alterations of my thoughts.
 
2C's are very variable for every one, the reason people might suggest 2C-E for the first time could be due to the different effects.

I find 2C-E to be a much more visual and easy trip compared to any other 2C, including 2C-B. Therefore for me 2C-E would have been the perfect first psych. I would still suggest B to people though as I know this is out of the ordinary for most.
 
freedstar said:
I don't see this kind of long lasting damage being done by something like 4-aco-dmt. I once had a 40mg+ trip that was pure hell due to my situation and should of been a train wreck. It felt like all I could do was hold on and when I came down all I felt was a little shocked. This was the kind of trip where I was half sure I wouldn't come out of it and ever be the same, but part of me knew this is a common thing to feel and to just wait it out. There were no long term effects or alterations of my thoughts.
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Exactly. I've been to hell and back on other substances but none have left their mark on me as noticeably and as permanently as 2C-E and 2C-I. Nobody can tell me that it was another psychedelic. The 2C's have a unique and unmistakable effect on perceptions and thought patterns and it is obvious to me that the long-term damage I have been dealt is a direct result of regular 2C use. And again, I would have simply written it off as bad luck and moved on from these substances IF I hadn't encountered so many others who've felt the same effects.

When I come back from a really heavy trip on anything else I'll feel a little shaken, and it may take me a day or two to completely pull myself together, but I'm always back to myself before long. But with 2C-E and 2C-I... I just never fully came back. I don't know how else to put it. I've come to terms with it now after a long, grueling battle with myself, but it is still something I wish I could have avoided altogether.
 
freedstar said:
I don't see this kind of long lasting damage being done by something like 4-aco-dmt. I once had a 40mg+ trip that was pure hell due to my situation and should of been a train wreck. It felt like all I could do was hold on and when I came down all I felt was a little shocked. This was the kind of trip where I was half sure I wouldn't come out of it and ever be the same, but part of me knew this is a common thing to feel and to just wait it out. There were no long term effects or alterations of my thoughts.
Click to expand...

And I've had a difficult experience on 4-aco-dmt that permanently changed the way I thought about some things, killed the positive feelings/close friendship I had had with a few people for most of my life (I don't consider it a negative experience though), and kept me from enjoying another trip on any psychedelic for the better part of a year afterword. But I don't generalize my experience and claim that 4-subbed tryptamines are particularly dangerous or anything.

In other words, nothing the naysayers in this thread have said has convinced me at all that the 2C's pose some exceptional risk over other psychedelics.
 
I do agree with the OP for the most part. The only 2C's I like and rarely use are 2C-C and 25C-NBOMe (which IMO differs from the classical 2C's quite much). I've used both 2C-I and 2C-E in the past and disliked both intensely. To be honest, and I know this sounds harsh, I think phenethylamines mostly feel like psychedelic speed. I had the misfortune lately to take a blotter I was assured by my (experienced) friend was LSD. It turned out to be DOB. It was horrible. Like on speed with visuals that seemed extremely synthetic. I have the same thing with 2C's (apart from 25C-NBOMe, but it is very unique and can't be placed amongst the classic 2C's), the visuals feels so synthetic and "designed".

I'm not taking a stand on risks. I mean just think about e.g. 5-MeO-AMT. There's a tryptamine you don't have to take too much to OD and die. But generally tryptamines are indeed safer and much, much more soft on the brain in the long term.

Thank god for tryptamines. By all means, if you love phens, use them. I just happen to belong to those who feels there's a very chemical, synthetic, forceful and sometimes just plain toxic feel to them. I'm not going into the "natural" thing, although I feel tryptamines feel quite natural, they're chemicals just like phens (some just happens to be found naturally in nature and the human body).
 
Never Knows Best said:
And I've had a difficult experience on 4-aco-dmt that permanently changed the way I thought about some things, killed the positive feelings/close friendship I had had with a few people for most of my life (I don't consider it a negative experience though), and kept me from enjoying another trip on any psychedelic for the better part of a year afterword. But I don't generalize my experience and claim that 4-subbed tryptamines are particularly dangerous or anything.

In other words, nothing the naysayers in this thread have said has convinced me at all that the 2C's pose some exceptional risk over other psychedelics.
Click to expand...
I know you know what HPPD is. A hallucinogenic substance generates visuals and reminiscent distortions of them persist in the user, even after the drug has left his or her system. Now imagine something similar that encompasses not just vision, but all perceptions and thought patterns. That is the problem that I see with 2C-E (and perhaps 2C-I). That is what I feel they've done to me. Persisting perception disorder in the truest sense of the words, beyond simple visual distortions. You say 4-AcO-DMT has permanently changed you. Do you feel like you're still on it? Because I kind of feel like I've been stuck on a low dose of 2C-E / 2C-I for over a year now. These substances presented patterns and sensations to my mind that have never left and probably never will, at least not for many years.

It's been pretty much accepted at this point that the 2C's have a higher risk of causing visual HPPD than other psychedelics just by the sheer amount of anecdotal evidence that's been rolling in, so why is what I'm presenting so hard to believe, or even consider for some? Not all psychedelics are created equal, and we as a community should really stop acting like it.
 
You're starting to sound like a broken record... it's a bit cumbersome to read you quoting people and simply saying "I see you know what I mean." We all get what you mean by now lol
 
Well obviously not or I wouldn't have to keep making the same points.

Not to mention that it's been well over a week since I started this whole thing and I don't even remember what I've already stated and what I haven't.
 
Never Knows Best said:
And I've had a difficult experience on 4-aco-dmt that permanently changed the way I thought about some things, killed the positive feelings/close friendship I had had with a few people for most of my life (I don't consider it a negative experience though), and kept me from enjoying another trip on any psychedelic for the better part of a year afterword. But I don't generalize my experience and claim that 4-subbed tryptamines are particularly dangerous or anything.

In other words, nothing the naysayers in this thread have said has convinced me at all that the 2C's pose some exceptional risk over other psychedelics.
Click to expand...

I find that 4-ACO-DMT leaves my thoughts too scattered and fleeting to be able to perpetuate the intense analytical nature of 2C-E that seems to be causing mine and others "problems".

I'm also unsure as to why you find it so hard to accept that maybe 2C-E DOES pose more danger than other psychs to SOME users who are susceptible to it. I've heard this said more about 2C-E on various forums than any other chem. As a matter of fact, I can't think of another which so many people report problems with. I know that 2C-E is fairly popular but still..

As another poster said, there's that feeling that this has clearly been caused by nothing else but the 2C-E.


And to be clear.. i'm not suggesting that the damage caused is neurological or anything of that sort. More like the doors that 2C-E opens are ones that I would rather have closed. Deep and jaded analyzing of social behaviors and relationships come to mind.
 
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