Why do women judge their own looks?

[JessFR]

Yes, it does. You made a comment about all women.


You don't speak for every member of your gender. I know women that like what other women would describe as unwanted attention. Maybe sometimes they're not in the mood, but you can't honestly say that no women like that sort of thing.

I don't believe I ever said that. I said the vast majority do not. Which is my experience.

But ok fine lets assume some enjoy it. Why should I suffer just for the sake of the ones that like it? Why don't I have a right to exist in public without worrying that what I'm wearing will make me subject unwanted comments from guys? How is that ok?

If you're wearing a g-string on the beach and you don't want any sexualized attention, that is confusing for men. Guys yelling shit out of cars is obviously unwanted attention, but I'm not sure what you mean by "making some sexual comment". Again, I know many women that like it when guys hit on them in this way.


I do, like I said... Because I don't know what is wanted and what is unwanted in terms of advances, I don't make any sexual advances.

If I am too assume they are all unwanted (as I do) then the term "unwanted sexual advances" should just be "sexual advances". If everything in that department is unwanted, the word unwanted is meaningless.

Again, not all women agree with you here. It's impossible for men to tell you apart from the women that disagree with you.

This would be a lot easier to discuss if we had a clearer idea of exactly what kind of sexual advances you're talking about. Cause I'm making assumptions and I can't be sure they're correct. Specifically I'm asking about sexual advances you would predicate on how a woman's dressed.

What I am saying though, is that how a woman's dressed should never be the basis for how men interact with her. Not unless maybe it literally says "I want men to cat call me, no really I do!".

Do you police what you wear because you're concerned that women might make unwanted sexual advances to you? Keep in mind that most women are a lot more worried about being sexually assaulted by men than men probably are by random women. So try and put yourself in that frame of mind before answering.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

I don't believe I ever said that. I said the vast majority do not.

I literally quoted you saying it. Perhaps you worded it incorrectly.

Why should I suffer...? Why don't I have a right to exist in public without worrying...? How is that ok?

Ugh. I didn't say any of that.

This would be a lot easier to discuss if we had a clearer idea of exactly what kind of sexual advances you're talking about.

Likewise. I've heard women call all sorts of shit harassment that I disagree with. Even the most innocent comment about appearances now is harassment according to some people.

What I am saying though, is that how a woman's dressed should never be the basis for how men interact with her.

I think that's unrealistic.

Do you police what you wear...?

Yes, I do. Everybody does. I'd honestly like to be able to wear a dress if I feel like it. Even dressing up at home with the blinds closed is a little shameful (although that's part of the kink appeal). Women can chose from a much larger spectrum of clothing than men.

Do I police what I wear to avoid sexual advances (as opposed to homophobic remarks and other assumptions)? Yes, I do to some extent. Everybody does.

I'm not advocating for Islamic face coverings here and I would never tell a woman what to wear, but sometimes women go too far for my liking. I don't want to see ass cheeks if I'm not supposed to look at them.

Let me ask you this. Are you a naturalist? Do you think women should walk around stark naked? Men are animals. That's not an excuse, it's just a fact. Like @December Flower said, there is a subconscious reaction that occurs. I would probably crash my car every day if women walked around the streets stark naked.

There is a big difference between your idealistic world and having realistic expectations. Men aren't bastards because they're men. They can't help being men (to some extent) any more than women can help being women.

I try my best not to ogle women.

Here's an example. My sister in law is in a lesbian relationship. They are both blonde and "conventionally" attractive. Her partner has giant tits and she wears tiny bikini tops that hardly contain them. They also lie all over each other and oil each other up and shit in front of me. It's seriously difficult battling my brain to not look at them. I feel like a creep, but I'm not. I'm super respectful of women, but my biology is not.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

our abs are not as easily exposed. I mean, ofc, a woman that's wearing cleavage knows what she's doing, but a lot of it is actually about not sweating there

It's pretty easy to not wear a shirt.

Exactly. They know what they're doing... I have no idea what you're talking about, regarding sweating?

"Unattractive" females can be the nicest person ever, and end up alone.

Unnatractive men don't even have it half as hard. I see a bunch of obesed guys with beautiful women. It's a pretty regular sight. Now how often do you see the reverse?

This is fucking unfair, and we all know it. It's just that many men have a hard time acknowledging it.

I agree and I disagree.

It's much easier for an ugly woman to get laid than an ugly man, but (yes) it's easier for an ugly man to get a beautiful woman than it is the other way round... although, the man typically has to have some other quality (money / sense of humour).

I often see overweight women with slim, reasonably good-looking men.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

an entire social system that tells you your worth is primarily sexual

I understand what you mean, but this is an exaggeration.

Do you consider yourself a feminist?

 

[December Flower]

It's pretty easy to not wear a shirt.

Exactly. They know what they're doing... I have no idea what you're talking about, regarding sweating?

Many women have issues with sweat under their breasts in the summer, and if they're not wearing cleavage atop the breasts can get problematic too, and between. The whole skin gets very sensitive, and it can start hurting a lot. That's why women like a little airflow there. I said they know what they're doing, but there's a logical reason behind wearing cleavage or even a bikini top that has nothing to do with sexualizing anything(air can get under the breasts in a bikini top).

Yeah? In most cities it's illegal to not wear a shirt. But a girl can wear cleavage anywhere she goes, xept Temple or Church. Na, I'm sorry, there's not enough opportunities for men to make females "female-gazey", see there isn't even a word for it. Also looking at a stomach is just not the same chemically as looking at organs important for babymaking/upkeep. Tits are pretty much in our face. If we walked around with part of our dick out, maybe we'd have a different opinion, and would wish for females to look us in the eye again

 

[birdup.snaildown]

I really don't think a lot of women expose cleavage to reduce sweat.

In most cities it's illegal to not wear a shirt.

WTF? Okay. I come from Australia where people aren't insane.

...

Sure abs aren't the same as tits. There are anatomical differences that make it harder for women to not sexualize themselves, but a lot of women don't seem to be particularly concerned with not sexualizing themselves. To the contrary, I constantly see women that wear the skimpiest clothing possible. Even if you're right about boob sweat (which I don't think you are), it doesn't explain why women wear the least amount of clothes possible if they don't want attention.

If I walked down the street wearing tiny hot pants and a tube top, I'd get all sorts of attention. More than a woman wearing the same outfit, I would think.

 

[December Flower]

I really don't think a lot of women expose cleavage to reduce sweat.



WTF? Okay. I come from Australia where people aren't insane.

I've met a bunch who just can't stand going without, because the sweat gets too much if they don't.
This is mostly important for larger breasts, which most of women from here have, maybe it's that. Maybe they don't talk about it, because they're female and not "supposed" to smell like cheese between their tits. I mostly know this because I grew up with 3 women around me 24/7 and my dad I saw like 30 minutes a day, if even that. 2 ex's that kept insisting the same, and just gave it a google search to be on the safe side. I'm like 99.9% sure this is a dominating factor, not "how many men will check out my boobs tonight?"
When guys wear short pants it's for the heat. If females wear short pants it's to score dudes.
If a guy wears a tanktop it's for the heat. If females wear tanktops it's so that everyone can see their tits.
Where is the logic, bro?

Ah, no it's illegal in most of the world, actually. Even in cities like Barcelona it's illegal to not wear a shirt. Only at the beach are you allowed to.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@December Flower

I'm still not sure I understand what you mean.
Can you post some pics of giant sweaty tits?

 

[birdup.snaildown]

When guys wear short pants it's for the heat.

When attractive guys walk around in next to nothing, everybody immediately recognizes that as an attempt to attract women. It's always guys that are super ripped.

 

[December Flower]

@December Flower

I'm still not sure I understand what you mean.
Can you post some pics of giant sweaty tits?

https://www.healthline.com/health/womens-health/boob-sweat

Yknow if it were true that women just want to entrap men by wearing cleavage, they'd be wearing cleavage in the winter too. It gets cold here (-20°C) and women actually put on more clothing, even indoors. You will see next to no exposed cleavage in a real winter.

Yeah you will never see a guy wearing almost nothing here. Because that counts as exhibitionism :D

 

[birdup.snaildown]

There were no sweaty boob photos in that link! I didn't say women "just" want to entrap men by exposing their cleavage. Your logic about winter is odd. You might as well argue that if women want to get attention by wearing g-strings at the beach, then they would also wear them in the snow. Obviously people put on more clothing when it's cold. That means nothing.

I just asked my wife about the boob sweat thing and she laughed and said she's never heard of that reason before. I've also never heard of it. I will continue my survey with other women and get back to you.

 

[December Flower]

There were no sweaty boob photos in that link! I didn't say women "just" want to entrap men by exposing their cleavage. Your logic about winter is odd. You might as well argue that if women want to get attention by wearing g-strings at the beach, then they would also wear them in the snow. Obviously people put on more clothing when it's cold. That means nothing.

I just asked my wife about the boob sweat thing and she laughed and said she's never heard of that reason before. I've also never heard of it. I will continue my survey with other women and get back to you.

But that's why I added "even inside". For the cold we wear jackets. So why is the clothing under the jackets usually also unrevealing? Because maybe, when it's cold, there's no real reason to expose skin, because you're not sweating. I'm not a boob scientist, although I wish that were an occupation.

More females would have to chip in on this. Also, as the article says, some women just never have any issues, especially when the breasts aren't large. But full-blooded Bavarian women usually have a C or D cup minimum. I've never talked to a non-German woman about this. Fuck, is this a German thing? No the article was in English..

 

[JessFR]

I understand what you mean, but this is an exaggeration.

Do you consider yourself a feminist?

Yes I do. I mean I'd generally consider myself a believer in helping people and fighting injustice. But yeah obviously I focus on areas I'm more familiar with.

Things like abuse or sexism against women or drug users or small time offenders or abuse victims. Stuff I have a vested interest in.

But that doesn't mean I won't point out and argue against obvious sexism against males too. Just that obviously I'm gonna have a greater insight to things I have more life experience with.

None of this is to say I agree with everything anyone calling themselves a feminist or coming up with in its name comes out with. There's an extremist element in every good cause. No concept is so good it can't be fucked up once an extremist gets into it.

 

[novaveritas]

I've met a bunch who just can't stand going without, because the sweat gets too much if they don't.
This is mostly important for larger breasts, which most of women from here have, maybe it's that. Maybe they don't talk about it, because they're female and not "supposed" to smell like cheese between their tits. I mostly know this because I grew up with 3 women around me 24/7 and my dad I saw like 30 minutes a day, if even that. 2 ex's that kept insisting the same, and just gave it a google search to be on the safe side. I'm like 99.9% sure this is a dominating factor, not "how many men will check out my boobs tonight?"
When guys wear short pants it's for the heat. If females wear short pants it's to score dudes.
If a guy wears a tanktop it's for the heat. If females wear tanktops it's so that everyone can see their tits.
Where is the logic, bro?

Ah, no it's illegal in most of the world, actually. Even in cities like Barcelona it's illegal to not wear a shirt. Only at the beach are you allowed to.

It is said women don't sweat they glow which is sexist in itself. Many people have not heard of this problem of excessively glowing breasts, this must be because the evil patriachy are ruthlessly supressing discussion of outside Bavaria to avoid giving women excuses or displaying their breasts other than for the gratification and entertainment of males.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@JessFR

Being white is more familiar to me than being black, but I don't consider myself a whitist. I do, however, understand what you mean about being more invested in female issues. I'm more invested in Australia than Kenya. Gender is a bit different, though, because we all have mothers and fathers / brothers and sisters / uncles and aunts / etc.

I don't like the term feminism because it isn't inclusive. Feminists argue that feminism is about equality for both genders. If so, the name is wrong. It's like BLM claiming to inclusive of white people. It should be called All Lives Matter and feminism should have a similarly neutral name.

Both groups (BLM and feminism) have issues with victimization, IMO. Feminists tend to perceive men negatively and BLM likewise. It's problematic - I think - to identify as somebody that cares more about one race / gender / sexuality.

I asked if you identify as a feminist because you've made numerous comments that are feministic.

I don't believe society views women primarily as sexual objects. We've come a long way in that department.

I'm not saying that there aren't remnants of that sexist world that still need to be dealt with, but I don't believe the problem (as it exists today) is as significant ad you make it out to be.

 

[December Flower]

It is said women don't sweat they glow which is sexist in itself. Many people have not heard of this problem of excessively glowing breasts, this must be because the evil patriachy are ruthlessly supressing discussion of outside Bavaria to avoid giving women excuses or displaying their breasts other than for the gratification and entertainment of males.

Funny. Make fun of the Autist, always seems to work for Neurotypicals.
Don't forget to point and laugh, that's kinda how it works. If you make enough of a scene making fun of me, people will even forget that you're behaving like a jackass.
I did not say one thing about evil Patriarchs, or any sort of surpressed discussion. I said women might not talk about this, women also don't talk about farting, shitting or their afterbirth. I did not mention any "conspiracy", I asked myself if this might be a genetic issue. I don't like people who put words in my mouth, just because they lack the ability to properly read or use the internet.

Thank you for your non-existing input. Was really fun reading through someone just insulting me for no reason, without even having the ability to properly read what I have written. Guys, you can make as much fun of me as you want, but have you tried googling this? There's a zillion results about it, but let's keep laughing at the weird kid, ahahahahah. ffs. Instead of checking this out on google, and realizing it's a real thing, you just go straight for the Swinghammer, and try to get your punch in. Isn't that a bit low? Without even thinking first, apparently. That's the person you want to be, are you sure?

 

[Jabberwocky]

It is said women don't sweat they glow which is sexist in itself. Many people have not heard of this problem of excessively glowing breasts, this must be because the evil patriachy are ruthlessly supressing discussion of outside Bavaria to avoid giving women excuses or displaying their breasts other than for the gratification and entertainment of males.

Funny. Make fun of the Autist, always seems to work for Neurotypicals.
Don't forget to point and laugh, that's kinda how it works. If you make enough of a scene making fun of me, people will even forget that you're behaving like a jackass.
I did not say one thing about evil Patriarchs, or any sort of surpressed discussion. I said women might not talk about this, women also don't talk about farting, shitting or their afterbirth. I did not mention any "conspiracy", I asked myself if this might be a genetic issue.

Thank you for your non-existing input. Was really fun reading through someone just insulting me for no reason, without even having the ability to properly read what I have written. Guys, you can make as much fun of me as you want, but have you tried googling this? There's a zillion results about it, but let's keep laughing at the weird kid, ahahahahah. ffs.

@December Flower, while the post by @novaveritas that upset you did not add much to the conversation, I don’t read it as particularly abusive or singling you out as a target because you are neuro-atypical (is that the correct term?).

While SLR is a conflict free zone we can stand a mild amount of sarcasm when it is not intentionally hurtful. In any case rather than getting into a war of words, please just report posts you find offensive and a number of different mods will look into the issue.

Let’s keep on topic. Which I think is now women’s sweaty breasts and whether it influences their dress. I’d be inclined to listen to some women on this point.

 

[December Flower]

@December Flower, while the post by @novaveritas that upset you did not add much to the conversation, I don’t read it as particularly abusive or singling you out as a target because you are neuro-atypical (is that the correct term?).

While SLR is a conflict free zone we can stand a mild amount of sarcasm when it is not intentionally hurtful. In any case rather than getting into a war of words, please just report posts you find offensive and a number of different mods will look into the issue.

Let’s keep on topic. Which I think is now women’s sweaty breasts and whether it influences their dress. I’d be inclined to listen to some women on this point.

Sorry, but this was definitely a passive-aggressive attack against me.
"Evil Patriarchy", "ruthlessly surpressing discussion outside of Bavaria", I never said any of that, why does he do that other than to insult me? When he can just google and see I'm right? This pisses me off the most. They could have just used google.

I'm the weirdo long enough to know when people are talking down and making fun of me. I know when they are, they feel like they are smarter than I, because some of my arguments can be interpreted as child-like. And I think it's an ass move. Instead of using google, the decision becomes "make fun of the weird kid", and only that. This pisses me off beyond belief, I never even talked to said person. And then they make me look like an idiot that's spouting conspiracy nonsense.

I'm not OK with how passive aggression is being handled here. Someone can make fun of me, but as long as he doesn't use "nasty words" it's all fine. I get warned if I say "fuck you" back, because I'm direct, and not hiding behind my slimey pseudo-nice words. But the [mod edit: person] hiding behind their passive-aggressive insults has done nothing wrong whatsoever. That this [mod edit: person] got me choked up, and yeah I'm admitting that, is just meh, whatever. I get it. I'm the weirdo here, but I get choked up too when people make me look like I'm insane and a fool for no reason. Why? What's the fun sarcasm part I'm not getting? Ah, because it is at my expense, yeah that is funny, indeed.

Edit: And no, it's not the topic, not even close. It was just derailed, because, again, people don't like using google.

 

[Jabberwocky]

@December Flower the points you have raised and the way you are feeling are understandable. However, deleting or amending people’s posts by mods is a last resort for particularly egregious behaviour. That standard has not been met in this case. However, if you feel future posts by @novaveritas or anyone else are designed to intentionally upset you, please report them and feel free to PM me directly.

However a certain degree of resiliance is expected in the forum as well. It’s a balance. In either case posters who repeatedly fail to adhere to the Posting Guidelines in this forum are unwelcome and will be told so.

For the benefit of everybody the SLR forum specific posting guidelines can be found here: https://www.bluelight.org/xf/threads/⫸-slr-forum-guidelines-⫷.460225/

Please return to the topic or use the Report Post function or PM me. Any further discussion about this matter in the thread will be deleted. We can discuss it further elsewhere but please stay on topic here in the thread.

 

[JessFR]

@JessFR

Being white is more familiar to me than being black, but I don't consider myself a whitist.

Well sure but I've never felt disadvantaged by being white. And frankly I'd much prefer we stopped seeing each other as different because of skin color.

I don't like the term feminism because it isn't inclusive. Feminists argue that feminism is about equality for both genders. If so, the name is wrong. It's like BLM claiming to inclusive of white people. It should be called All Lives Matter and feminism should have a similarly neutral name.

Well I agree that black lives matter is a really bad brand.

Regarding feminism though, where I'm standing is essentially being a feminist doesn't mean I can't stand up for men too. Particularly when it's men harmed by other men, as it so often is.

Ultimately I consider myself a feminist in so far as I think there is still inequality and prejudice against women in the world, and while I can see prejudice against men too, overall I don't think it's as severe so I don't expend as much energy on it.

Both groups (BLM and feminism) have issues with victimization, IMO. Feminists tend to perceive men negatively and BLM likewise. It's problematic - I think - to identify as somebody that cares more about one race / gender / sexuality.

I can't really speak for blm, I don't feel familiar enough with it to do so.

I don't think I perceive all men negatively. I've had positive romantic relationships with men, I have a close familial relationship with my brother who's a man.

I don't hate men I just hate how a lot (but by no means all) of men behave.

And I feminism is a broad term with lots of flavors and variations in the people who adhere to the label. To me though I don't see anything anti-men about feminism. Just anti certain kinds of men.

Just as I can try and speak out against prejudice against men where I see it. I see no reason men can't see themselves as feminists.

I don't believe society views women primarily as sexual objects. We've come a long way in that department.

I'm not saying that there aren't remnants of that sexist world that still need to be dealt with, but I don't believe the problem (as it exists today) is as significant ad you make it out to be.

I think it's more significant than you realize. I agree there have been major strides and things are far better now than they once were. But I think there's a degree to which people, including women in fact, try to portray everything as either solved or good enough and this gets in the way of fixing some of the outstanding problems.

That so many people, even many women seek to distance themselves from feminism just because some feminists take things way too far (as extremists always do) seems very unfortunate to me.