• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

Speed/Meth tolerance prevention/reduction [long]

They all act as laxatives, afaik.
Just use an amount that doesn't cause that effect. The laxative effect is through a osmotic mechanism (it attracts water into the intestine, which increases motillity). The muscle-relaxant effects of Mg are active at much lower doses.
 
So if someone wanted to use a combination of DXM/Magnesium in an attempt to prevent tolerance buildup, should these substances be consumed daily even when not using meth, or only before/during/after the high? Common sense says the latter, but I'm not sure.

Also would any of the chemicals discussed in this thread potentially interact with MDMA, either by slowing down tolerance buildup or otherwise being beneficial?

And on that note, would the doses of DXM suggested be high enough to create a risk when combined with MDMA? I know the two substances shouldn't be mixed, as a rule, but I'm not sure on the specifics.



DexterMeth said:
Sorry for the length of the post, you just wanted to write down everything you researched the last few days? Don't you mean to say, "And sorry for the length of the post - but i just wanted to type until I crashed and died of exhaustion from all the ampthetamines that I'm currently twacked the fuck out my of skull in that "ampheta-goodness"..." ? :! 88) 8o %) :D =D :|:( ....:\ LOL..(if you get what I mean with the specific ordering of the faces, along with the grin ABOUT the series of faces i wrote there...it's a "mysterious encrpyted messages"! heh, joking. It's an illustration of each stage of the meth high. I forgot the regular smilie face though :) . Oh and i forgot the mad/raged one too :X . I should just stop there ,because if I keep it up, I'll have to write about typing about each of the faces that you can put up.

Anyways, THANK YOU for the very in depth, thorough, organized, and informative post. This is without a doubt one of "those posts" to KEEP on this site (up on the sticky-posts or something) for the whole lifespan of this site. And to think I actually thought I was helping myself/"protecting my bones", when I would take calcium suppliment vitamins when i was a tweaker back in the day. God i feel so fucking stupid. Well more like "jesus christ I'm so glad and lucky that I wasn't on meth (daily) any longer then that HORRIBLE "run" of 14 months on that SHIT
I'm also glad you put that little bit about taking magnesium..aside from even using amphetamines. I don't use that crap anymore. I've been non-completely-fucking-delirious, aka sober, for about 5 years! But I have "dabbled" with it..just a handful of times during these last 5 years. That's like once a year. And each time I did it (I'm nowadays completely fucking finished even thinking about that bullshit...well aside from the occasional thought about how terrible and destructive it is)....<Mind you I've generally been talking from a point of view to if the user in question was a TWEAKER aka "a daily user"(more like a "every hour"...or even more, depending on method of ingestion.)..And yeah my own personal biased against the drug is all over the place in this post (duh)...but that doesn't make anything necesarily untrue, (once again) IMO. Oh, and I'm also talking about the negetive effects, usage, etc, from a very "broad"/"general" point of view.
What do I personally think then? I think it's actually "completely safe"(as safe as safe can be), in my book. BUT on when you know your source and use it responsibly and in moderation. You know, just a fun day/night(/the next day since you didn't sleep :) ...kiiding, it's best if you actually get sleep every single time..otherwise you run more of a risk of becomming addicted and being dubbed a tweaker rat fink fuck...a little sniveling weasle....a snake in the grass....strait up psychotic/fucking insaine. Moderation is of course ALWAYS the key; with every drug. But especially ones that are so extremely addictive as meth/ampthetamines/stimulants are...being on my "top 3" list of "overall worst drugs for you to do", meth/ampthetamines are tied in 2nd place with crack...."oddly" enough with Datura(and OTC drugs of the like...or any deleriant) at the top #1 spot. There's a difference between tripping and being in a state a pure delerium...where you don't even know if you are tripping, even though your dead grandmother is crawling up your leg, she looks 100% real, and you can feel her crawling up you, you can smell her...it's all "real"...people have reported (like a group of people that all took datura together...and more then just one group of people have "done this") passing around an imaginary joint and getting high off it..accept in reality there was no joint or anything even in their hands in the first place....or if there was/happens to be anything in one's hands, it would be more along the lines of "dude when I woke up the next day and the trip was over, I was in the bathroom and noticed that the bar of soap in teh shower had a big bite mark taken out of it." (>>>>>sober trip sitter: "That's because you thought the soap was a block of cheddar cheese..and you actually thought you were tasting and seeing/smelling cheese." In my language/way of speaking/thinking, REAL tripping is when you take any psychedelic...deleriants, albiet technically yes they may be psychedelic (the effects), it just does not belong in family by any means....fuck that shit..but again this is all my opinion. Don't be fooled though..i know what i'm talking about here. If you wanna go huff a can of gas or something, be my guest, but don't type into your steven hawkings'-llike computer (when you are practically a vegtable), that you weren't warned. :\ :|
Anyways I'm going to wrap this post up here now...I've spent like over 30minutes typing it out....probably even longer then that...and I don't even use meth! Oh, AND I'm really stoned! Ha. I just can't get enough fo myself at times. I'm going to shut the fuck up now. lol. As long as this post helps at least even just one single random non-member of BL that was just browsing this site once because they accidently stumbled upon it when searching for something about meth, somehow found this post, read it, and it helped them out (however the hell) in a positive way...then I'm satisfied. :)
Peace out
-DM
*EDIT* - there's nothing really wrong imo (safety wise and in general) with using quality meth/amps/stims in moderation (accurately dosing each time as well) as a tool. You know like if you have an essay you have to write up that is due the next day in the morning, so you pull an "all-nighter" by doing just the right amount of meth(stim), and not getting TOO much of the euphoric effects or getting too "speedy", so that you could actually concentrate...Another situational example is if one simple liked to use it in moderation, for fun, every now and then. And of course it also depends on route of administration...but (for the trazillionth time) this is all my own personal opinion. While we're on the personal opinion boat, I'd like to again mention how shitty meth is, and that it is literally like a poison. Except you feel good the whole time you're dying....lol, right..l.like you could ever feel good the whole time you used meth/amp. Even the most hardcore users that shoot up multiple times daily eventually end up in rehab because even then end up hating it and thinking, in their case being (in a way) forced to hate it and think it sucks...afterall, humans generally are more into things that please them vs. things that drive them insaine, hurt them physically, emotionally, financially, socially, ........god and that's if you don't end up dying from the shit and/or the lifestyle that inevitably ends up commingly along with it.
Jesus christ that was just supposed to be a short like edit message. Oh yeah, I forgot, I took a single serving packing of caffine pillls this morning to help me study since i couldnt sleep after i woke up at around 4 in the morning anyways...and if there is a person who really doesnt "tolerate"/like/put up with caffiene and it's shitty side effects, that person would be me. However drinking the occasional cup of tea is much different, nice and smooth because of the other alkaloids in the tea...plus i get tea with specifically low levels of NATURAL caffiene. I have to smoke my brains out with pot to override any side effects from these caffiene pills and feel more relaxed...luckily i also got a script for ativan. :)
OK, FINALLY...."Peace man"(or you can all go f#ck yourselvs) :p jk...bluelighters unite! Oh yeah when you go and buy lighters at the store, ALWAYS make sure to get a blue one in support of being a bluelighter...every 80cents go to the starving children...the other 20 percent of each dollar goes to our christian organization..i mean, we gotta pay for these commercials, the employees (even though they are supposed to be "rightious"aka christian VOLENTTEERS ..in the name of jesus of course), along with getting filthy rich off a stunt like this. Anything to make a buck you know? Religions weren't just made for spiritual salvation. Didn't you know that? Idiot. :\


See, you can tell this dude likes his speed.
 
Re: Magnesium Supplements as a 'Speed/Meth tolerance prevention/reduction'

DaG said:
.....

4. Magnesium (supplement)
......

4) Magnesium is also an NMDA antagonist. Most people are deficient in magnesium, and stress reduces magnesium levels. Whether or not one takes amphetamines, magnesium supplementation is very important for mood, general well-being and keeping stress levels under control. It is also important to take magnesium in efficient form, with adequate bioavailability. The best type is magnesium glycinate (chelated) with bioavailability at around 80%. Second best is magnesium carbonate with (I don't remember exactly) bioavailability at little above 30%. Supplemented magnesium should be at 500 mg/day level. Also there is a study which shows that children who use amphetamine-type stimulants have bad magnesium/calcium balance. Calcium levels stay the same with amphetamine usage, but magnesium levels drop.

I'm not certain as to how these percentages relate to bioavailability but below is what I found:


http://dietary-supplements.info.nih.gov/factsheets/magnesium.asp

" Oral magnesium supplements combine magnesium with another substance such as a salt. Examples of magnesium supplements include magnesium oxide, magnesium sulfate, and magnesium carbonate. Elemental magnesium refers to the amount of magnesium in each compound. Figure 1 compares the amount of elemental magnesium in different types of magnesium supplements [28]. The amount of elemental magnesium in a compound and its bioavailability influence the effectiveness of the magnesium supplement. Bioavailability refers to the amount of magnesium in food, medications, and supplements that is absorbed in the intestines and ultimately available for biological activity in your cells and tissues. Enteric coating of a magnesium compound can decrease bioavailability [29]. In a study that compared four forms of magnesium preparations, results suggested lower bioavailability of magnesium oxide, with significantly higher and equal absorption and bioavailability of magnesium chloride and magnesium lactate [30]. This supports the belief that both the magnesium content of a dietary supplement and its bioavailability contribute to its ability to replete deficient levels of magnesium. "


It has a chart with 7 magnesium compounds in a bar graph with % magnesium in said supplement compounds:

60% Magnesium oxide, MgO
45% Magnesium carbonate, MgCO3
42% Magnesium hydroxide, Mg(OH)2
.........and various other salts of Mg..
16% Magnesium citrate, .....
12% Magnesium lactate, ........
12% Magnesium chloride, MgCl2 (anhydrous)
10% Magnesium sulfate, MgSO4 (anhydrous)
------------

Also found reference to Trimagnesium citrate on wikipedia.org (...although I don't know if this is for human consumption):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimagnesium_citrate

Trimagnesium citrate is a salt of magnesium and citric acid. It is more highly soluble than other organic magnesium salts, with a solubility of 200 g/L (yielding 32 g/L magnesium) in water.

IUPAC name: 2-hydroxypropane-1,2,3-tricarboxylic acid; magnesium
CAS: 3344-18-1
PUBMED: 20835962
Molecular formula: C12H10Mg3O14
------------------

Any thoughts...? Hope I cited these references properly.

dehmmy
 
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I've looked at all the articles mentioned in this thread, or at least the abstracts, but couldn't find any reference to NMDA antagonism reducing amphetamine tolerance, even less reducing methylphenidate tolerance. Does this theory has any evidence to suport it, or a least a theoretical basis? If someone has the references, I would be glad to have them.
 
This is an awesome write up. Taking the magnesium has made my adderall last way longer than 2-3 days it used to last.
 
Great informative post.

I take 40 -70 mg XR Add a day, 2-3 times a week I chill in the evenings with 50-70mg of norco. In terms of decreasing adderall tolerance, I take alpha lipoic acid to acidify myself metabolically, and promote excretion. I use calcium supplementation and it also has been incredibly helpfull in the comedown. From a cardiac standpoint, calcium decreases the action potential of nerve firings, specifically calcium gluconate is given in cases of bradycardia primary to hyperkalemia. I took that little tid bit, applied it to my adderall burn (on the assumption that adderall drops serum K+ and puts it into the cell). Junior college level shit, I know, but it fucking works. I realize that decreasing metabolic Ph would encourage the K+ to stay in the cells, but again, I'm just happy decreasing the action potential brought on by sympathetic stimulation, namely excessive norepinephrine release which I suspect is what makes me so godamn anxious at the end of a long addy day.
Mag may help decrease tolerance in the long run, hard to tell. I think it just makes me feel aloof- but the calcium really helps.

In terms of opiates, other than potentiation I can't find any way to slow down the tolerance I have to it. Nothing works.

Thanks again for the post everyone, very helpfull.

Oh, and I'll have whatever dexter meth is having, now that he's cleaned up.
 
sonnyluv can you elaborate on how ALA works as an acidifying agent and what the atvantage of that is? I was always under the impression that it was primarily usefull as an antioxidant (probably the best) when using amphetamines.
 
theWorldWithin said:
sonnyluv can you elaborate on how ALA works as an acidifying agent and what the atvantage of that is? I was always under the impression that it was primarily usefull as an antioxidant (probably the best) when using amphetamines.
Yeah, I should have been more clear. Alpha lipoic acid I use for two reasons. My theory: unlke a meth user who uses substantial amounts of the drug, I am a daily user and come 3pm, I'm ready to come down for the night. I take ALA, because, as you said it is the best antioxidant, prevent any neuron damage and hopefully replace some of what I've lost during the day. 2) It is acid. It drops Ph via my stomach thereby promoting excretion of Adderall through my kidneys. As we all know the duration an intensity of a meth high is heavily dpendant on metabloic Ph. I'm hoping that it just speeds up the comedown while replacing antioxidants to my brain. I also take tylenol to stay cool and prevent neuron damage from being overheated (I seriously get hot every day at the end of an adderall run).

One more thing, I've found that 500mg of ascorbic acid taken during mid tweak (which for me is about 4 hours after ingestion) really helps the comedown, I feel somehow cleaner.

These are just my crak pot theories, they seem to work for but are obviously by no means law;)
 
Thanks for the info sonnyluv. I will second the ascorbic acid suggestion, this has been shown to be quite effective with MDMA use so I see no reason why it wouldnt be aplicable to amphetamine.

Per your usage of ALA it seems quite justified but why not dose 30 minutes before your amphetamines to better prevent neurotoxicity? I was always under the impression that it is far more effective when taken before the drug in question causing oxadative stress. Then simply drink some acidic juice to adjust PH. Or maybe I am mistaken about the timeframe, what do you think?

BTW this is a great thread because it has practical application for people who legitimately need amphetamines for medical reasons. So much great information and anecdotal reports to support it.
 
Ancedotal is the simplest and most effective way for collecting generalized info, I find. From a managerial point of view it is also an efficient method when employee review time comes. Who did what, what date , to who, how often and how many nurses are pregnant because of it?
My problem with the ALA prior to daily lift off is that the sudden decrease in Ph will affect absorbtion almost as much as say, a fatty meal. In theory I think your idea is more effective, and I have taken ascorbic acid prior to dosing , it definitely feels cleaner- but you've shortened the duration of , depending on your situation and what needs to be accomplished, a probably rapidly receding time frame of therapeutic activity. Don't want to jinx it. I also don't take PPI or acid reducers prior to dose because then I get the opposite effect, a heavy burn which leaves me shorthanded. Man its a delicate balance.
My understanding is that neurotox comes towards the end of meth cycle, on the downward slope, caused by hyperthermia. My prescribed doses may cause minimal amounts of this but unlikely-I don't know- is neurotox a serious issue with any phetamine derivative even at prescribed doasages?
 
I've tried taking antacids with amphetamine. Works great
Taking magnesium didnt really make me notice much, i didnt get any horrid side effects like the shakes, but I also don't get much euphoria/rush either.

This leads me to this question, if magnesium will reduce the tolerance to amphetamine what exact parts of 'tolerance' does it effect? I noticed dulled positive effects on magnesium...which makes me wonder about the phenomenon "reverse tolerance" or sensitization to its psychological effects. As a result, regular users commonly experience a quick decrease of unwanted side effects, without an equivalent loss of its stimulant properties.

reverse tolerance kinda makes sense to me, I assume that it must take longer to replenish Norepinepherine or perhaps its reuptake is very weak compared to DA. either way, continuous exposure to raised NE in ur blood must raise tolerance to the physiological effects while dopamine gets reuptaken(?) faster. am i close?

If naturally your body will adjust to the physical aspects of amp but not necessarily the mental and euphoric parts then can having reverse tolerance while taking magnesium perhaps either allow less reverse tolerance (More negative physical effects) or have more of an all around tolerance effect (less physical and mental stimulation), adding to both mental and physical.


I just find magnesium tweaks to be a step above caffiene in terms of actual effects. Anyone think maybe ditch the supplements and just use every few days to build up the reverse tolerance.


I used to use 20mg xr by prescription, 40mg crushed adderall XR recreationally with some tums nad feel amazing, tingling body pleasure, great mood, confidence, stamina, concentration.

I noticed sometimes now that If i go above a certain dose only the negative effects increase. I dunno what I should take to make my amp runs more enjoyable.
I have l-tyrosine, 5htp, benadryl, tums, magnesium chelate, lorazepam, some delysm
 
bump because i want to know more about reverse tolerance and tolerance reduction mechanisms of action
 
i find moclobemide + ice is an awesome combo.........extends the effect x10 =D
 
so do you take the magnesium before the adderall or at the same time?? how long should it take to notice the difference?
 
would drugs that inhibit calcium channels work to lower some tolerance? The reason I ask is that I see amlopidine a blood pressure med does this to help regulate bp, figured maybe it deals with the norepinepherine etc...
 
I currently take 10mg of memantine daily (may raise it high as 30mg), and on Tuesday or so I should have a chance to try the Daytrana methylphenidate patch.

Updates to come.

Specifically with this I hope to retain the initial mood-boosting, motivating psychostimulant effect, which for me acquires very rapid tolerance (giving way to a more robotic focus), and which I feel is actually more therapeutic for me than the later effect.
 
Ketamine, PCP, and DXM are plenty neurotoxic all by themselves. Amphetamine less so, but more so if taken daily. Drug holidays are the best way to reverse amphetamine tolerance, except maybe for MDMA tolerance which may be permanent. Moderation really is important, especially with methamphetamine. However, even such a powerful psychostimulant as that can be used occasionally without breaking the bank if you're careful. The biggest reason methylphenidate is less toxic than amphetamine and methamphetamine is that it lasts much, much less long. Wellbutrin is hardly active at all.
 
Dextromethorphan is not likely to be neurotoxic at all orally:
Oral administration of dextromethorphan does not produce neuronal vacuolation in the rat brain

Dextromethorphan is a widely used antitussive agent, also showing increased recreational abuse. Dextromethorphan and its metabolite dextrorphan are non-competitive antagonists at the N-methyl-d-aspartate (NMDA) receptor ion channel. Single doses of some NMDA receptor antagonists produce neuropathologic changes in neurons of the retrosplenial/posterior cingulate cortices (RS/PC), characterized by vacuolation or neurodegeneration. To determine whether dextromethorphan produces these characteristic lesions, dextromethorphan was administered orally either as a single dose of 120 mg/kg to female rats, or daily for 30 days at doses of 5–400 mg/(kg day) to male rats and 5–120 mg/(kg day) to female rats. Brains were examined microscopically for evidence of neuronal vacuolation (4–6 h postdose) and neurodegeneration (24 or 48 h postdose). Administration of dextromethorphan at 120 mg/(kg day) in females, and at ≥150 mg/(kg day) in males produced marked behavioral changes, indicative of neurologic effects. Mortality occurred at the highest doses administered. There were no detectable neuropathologic changes following single or repeated oral administration of dextromethorphan at any dose. Administration of MK-801 (9 mg/kg) produced both cytoplasmic vacuolation and neuronal degeneration in neurons of the RS/PC cortex. Thus characteristic neuropathologic changes found with more potent NMDA receptor antagonists do not occur following single or repeated oral administration of dextromethorphan.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=b2de36faca3b32c672c4814c1553d5be

Even if the rats die from enormous amounts of DXM orally, they still do not manifest traditional NMDA neurotoxicity.
 
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