How many times have you rolled?

[psyloq]

I have recently started looking into MDMA and am simply blown away by all the negative literature that can be found on the net. Rollsafe.org is a prime example of this and, now that I have found this site, examples of how MDMA can go wrong for people abound here; there's a LONG ass thread on LTC making the rounds right now.

Maybe my perception of the thing is a consequence of perhaps unknowingly focusing on negative aspects (if so, please educate me!), but either way I would like to ask a few questions to all you guys that I hope will help people new to the scene -- myself included! -- uncover and hopefully understand the opposite side of the MDMA experience. Note I'm assuming there must be an opposite, positive, side simply because people just wouldn't do MDMA otherwise, and it's been around since the 70s (I believe).

So... How many times have you rolled? Does it still produce the same magic for you or have you had to up the dose or employ other measures? How long do you wait between rolls? If you're a long time roller and you honestly think there has been no loss of magic, are you careful about what and how much you take, and do you supplement with antioxidants or other stuff? Other tips/comments you want to share?

I can't stress how helpful sites like this are for uninformed people like myself but, more importantly, the site itself is worth virtually nothing without YOUR contribution! We ALL stand to benefit given the obvious serious dangers that exist in dabbling with MDMA. We ALL learn from one another but someone has got to get the ball rolling (man, pun unintended!).

Go!

 

[Swim15]

Ive rolled maybe 10-12 times.

As far as safety, just keep doses reasonable (100-150mg range and half of that for a redose if you choose to) and space them ~12 weeks apart.

Do that and youll experience all of the positives and few or none of the negatives. Dont wait to get burned to decide to take it seriously.

 

[lionheart90]

lol what do you mean "there must be a positive" to it? It's heaven in a pill. Take it once and you'll understand the hype.

rave culture, late night partying, dancing with strangers in a euphoric haze, EDM festivals, bass festivals, pretty much any festival. thats the MDMA culture, MDMA + music is a match made in heaven.

 

[Jaredborgetti]

8 times

 

[G_Chem]

I'm probably getting close to a 100 times.. Been rolling for 14yrs and still feel like I roll just as hard or harder than the "youngins" around me. It's all about the type of product you have access to, can't tell you how many times I've had people tell me "that's the best mdma I've ever done.."

With that said, even with the best stuff losing the magic is possible, it happened to my brother..

Here's the golden rules to follow for years of unadulterated mdma goodness ..

-Roll on average 4-8 times a year depending on how you respond. Some people can do a little less, some a little more. I'd say 8 is pushing it and should be followed up by a lighter year after. (Waiting between rolls isn't as important as just having a yearly average. I usually roll two nights in a row for 4 of my yearly rolls with no issues. Research shows it's not problematic to do this and in fact can reduce toxicity via something called "preconditioning," ask if you'd like to know more.)

-Keep total dosage of the night below 250mg.

-Only use a booster redose. If you don't reach the level you were hoping for don't monch away on more trying to get there.

-Stay cool. Losing magic is likely related to neurotoxicity. Becoming hot can mean the difference between no toxicity or burning yourself out over less than a 10F span. I often roll outdoors at night in the north or shed lots of clothing. Don't be that guy in the club with a bomber hat on cuz it "looks cool."

-Eat an antioxidant rich diet at least a few days before and a few days after. Also take antioxidant rich supplements a few hours after the experience as well as the day or two after.

-Reagent test your product to help confirm its MDMA.

Follow this simple advice and you'll be alright. It's one of the most amazing drugs out there but the rules must be followed. People fuck up because when you do follow the rules, or right when you start, it feels so benign and afterglowy. People think they're special then they take it too far.

The stuff still does me great. I'll admit though that as the years have gone on I do more combos these days with psychedelics and other empathogens. I've found overall I prefer the experience when at least a psychedelic is mixed in but I still roll great without it. Probably me just wanting to push the envelope as I get older, thatcseems to be a theme for me.

Also I feel all the old rollers that I know like myself, have adopted really healthy living habits. Probably part of the reason we can still take this drug and enjoy it. I don't just get healthy when I wanna get high, exercise, healthy eating, are an every day thing.

-GC

 

[psyloq]

It's all about the type of product you have access to, can't tell you how many times I've had people tell me "that's the best mdma I've ever done.."

Right. I think this is the really important aspect! Without good product, there cannot be a good high. The rules you enumerated make perfect sense and I personally follow all; with the addition that I'm very wary of redosing and would rather stay below the typical dosages. How does the "preconditioning" work though?

 

[indigoaura]

Started rolling in 2000. I am probably somewhere around 110 doses by now. This is just an estimate. The first 5 years I followed what was recommended at that time in the harm reduction community, which was to wait one month in between experiences. As I got older (and after I lost my good supplier) I rolled less, and my use was anywhere between 1-5 times per year.

Whether I have lost the magic or not is questionable. I lost the supplier of my reliable product in late 2005. After that, it has never felt the same. Whether it is the product or the magic or some combination of the two...I don't know. But, I have not experienced a really exceptional roll in a long time.

I favor vitamin C as a pre-load and postload, and methyl B12 in the weeks after. I used to supplement with 5HTP, but honestly think it is possible it may have hurt more than it helped. Also, I don't drink at all. I realize that is a rarity, but that has been part of my program so I will mention it.

For whatever it is worth - I am a successful professional with a graduate degree. Graduated with highest honors and a 3.9 GPA. So, I don't think my intellect has been dulled. It is possible my short term memory is a bit fuzzy, but then again, the same thing is true for my super sober sister, so that may just run in the family.

 

[Hilopsilo]

I counted a couple months ago just in my head (its such a memorable experience I can pretty much remember every single roll), think I got em all tbh, it was ~40 times over the last 9 years; in total I've probably consumed ~4 grams of MDMA from the age of 15 to 24. Average probably 4 times a year, as much as 8 times in one year and as little as once in a year. Always 100mg and I swear every time the stuff hits me harder than the last. I've never noticed any adverse after-effects and always experience strong afterglow. I do struggle with some mild seasonal depression but I don't think MDMA has anything to do with that since it hasn't gotten worse since I began using MDMA (if anything, MDMA is quite therapeutic and helps with it).

That said, as you might have seen another thread here, MDMA seems to vary in its effects batch to batch even when its all seemingly pure for all intents and purposes. Nobody really knows whats going on or why, but I myself feel that this phenomenon is real through both experience and hard(er) evidence and is not just a loss of magic.

 

[G_Chem]

Pre-conditioning in relation to MDMA is essentially that; when subjected to less than neurotoxic dosages (often 10mg/kg, when humans often eat 1-2mg/kg so still high) once a day for four days, on the fifth day when given what's considered a neurotoxic regimen (20mg/kg every 2 hours 4 times total) they were given neuroprotection.

Another research article found that adolescent mice/rats given less than neurotoxic dosages for periods of time then later in life as adults given a neurotoxic dosage, showed they too were afforded neuroprotection.

On the flip side, redosing can be very detrimental (a booster isn't bad but still the best is no redoses, I like a little one for the increased MDA metabolite) and all research indicates so..

In other words, a reasonable dosage on a Friday night followed by another reasonable dosage Saturday night is hell of a lot safer than people think, compared to having some redoses throughout the night. It could be argued that if you kept your average yearly dosages the same, it might be safer to have a few of them closer together.

On the flip side, people often don't take care of themselves and the antioxidant system of the body takes a huge hit even from standard doses, if anyone does decide to listen to this advice please practice the other rules given above, particularly antioxidant supplements and healthy food. If not, space your rolls like everyone else..

-GC

 

[Swim15]

G Chem -

Ive seen you talk about that pre conditioning before and am familiar with the concept. Do you have any literature on that saved? Interested to do some additional reading if you do happen to have any

 

[G_Chem]

Here's the article I often quote..

""Repeated exposure to MDMA provides neuroprotection against subsequent MDMA-induced serotonin depletion in brain. Bhide NS, et al. Brain Res. 2009.""

Here's another..

""Effect of repeated exposure to MDMA on the function of the 5-HT transporter as assessed by synaptosomal 5-HT uptake.""

What I gather is that, when "preconditioned" any serotonin depletion is transient, whereas one large binge dose is not. They don't seem to have figured out the mechanism by which this occurs however..

Also it seems this preconditioning can also protect against meth induced 5-ht damage but not dopamine related damage.

""Adolescent MDMA Exposure Diminishes the Physiological, Behavioral, and Neurotoxic Consequences of a Subsequent Methamphetamine Binge
Christina S. Henderson,1,3 Brian J. Piper,1,4 and Jerrold S. Meyer1,2""

Here's another..

""Repeated intermittent methylenedioxymethamphetamine exposure protects against the behavioral and neurotoxic, but not hyperthermic, effects of an MDMA binge in adult rats. Brian J Piper, Syed F Ali, Lauren G Daniels, Jerrold S Meyer. Synapse 64 (6), 421-431, 2010""

And finally..

""Repeated adolescent 3, 4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) exposure in rats attenuates the effects of a subsequent challenge with MDMA or a 5-hydroxytryptamine1A receptor ?
Brian J Piper, Huyen L Vu, Mina G Safain, Andrew J Oliver, Jerrold S Meyer
Journal of Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics 317 (2), 838-849, 2006""


Now I believe this information has two uses. One being what I've talked about above, that having experiences close together isn't a death wish like the folks over at Reddit would have you believe. And two... That new users to MDMA must be EXTRA cautious compared to seasoned users.

We see LTC becoming a huge problem and while there's a lot of garbage MDMA out there, there's also a good amount of high potency high purity product. Back in my day, (mid 2000's) it was very hard to take too much MDMA with its price and the potency of Ecstasy then. Nowadays it's much easier for someone new to pop 200mg of pure MD and fry themselves.

Food for thought.

-GC

 

[Innerpeace]

G Chem so no redoses as research says its not the healthiest?

Im going to agree with you from my experience, that you could do one night back to back at normal doses. In 2017 I did borax combo (5-mapb, 2-fma, 4-ho-mipt) in late jan and around mid feb 6-apb, and had no issues, both times were amazing.

Ive rolled maybe forty nights. about thirty of them was in a year period from nov 2000 to nov 2001.I definitely overdid it. I'm a lot older and wiser now now, and take many vitamins, minerals, antioxidants daily.

 

[psyloq]

Yeah, 30 rolls within 12 months amounts to a roll every couple of weeks or so, which is a lot. Have you noticed any loss of magic at all, Innerpeace?

 

[tripnnface]

way too many. hard to put a number on it. first roll was probably in 2008, and i probably rolled almost every weekend at 1 point. horrible pills too, lots of pipes and meth. eventually found better product, and still abused it. i calmed down in maybe... 2013/2014.

probly roll once a year nowadays. comedowns are so rough, i definitely abused and lost some magic.

 

[Dresden]

300x

 

[Innerpeace]

Yeah, 30 rolls within 12 months amounts to a roll every couple of weeks or so, which is a lot. Have you noticed any loss of magic at all, Innerpeace?

absolutely 100 % loss of magic around roll number twenty. I kept doing it and it actually made me sad at one point because while I was high, I was experiencing negative emotions while on it, probally because of the low lifes I hung out with that made me a low life. Thank god I rose above that and learned my lesson. . I took a two or three month break here and there and would try again, and while I would get a brief moment, it didnt last and I truley thought the magic was gone so I just stopped because it wasnt the same as the first couple times.

I took a thirteen year break, yes you read that right and tried an RC 5-mapb and that rocked my world, magic fully back 110% it was actually too strong, I was rolling so hard colors were enhanced way too much, it was fun at the time, but the after effects werent, although i had serotonin syndrome a week afterwards . Ended up throwing that batch out. did it 3-4 times that year, did it 1 time the next year , did it four times the next year, trying 6-apb, and one time the next year. After the serotonin syndrome I have watched my dose carefully.

I could be wrong; however from my experience Its best for me, my experience and my age,I wait at least six months, with six or more being preferable to have a more magic day or night time. Ive talked with a lot of veterns that roll, 40,50,60,70 yars old and they say 1-2 times a year. is ideal.

I do think , again from experience, one can do it back to back , like Gchem did it one night after the other, I did it two weeks apart , and didn't lose any magic. After this though its important and take at least a six month break. The longer the better. I did it for the first time the past year in the day time and really liked it, as before it was always evening or after dark.

 

[Hilopsilo]

While I don't roll often, i've done it back to back nights many times with the same dose, and tbh sometimes it feels stronger the second night. Maybe due to the "mental icebreaker" the night before I embrace the experience a bit more readily? Same thing happens with LSD, although with that I have to 2x-4x my dose, but the high itself is waaaaaay better; zero body load, way more visuals from a higher dose, less confusing but still profound, etc.

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

Too many times to remember. I had a long break from it between 2002 -2014 and have largely been disappointed with the quality since. As for back to back dosing, I've done it many times, but I find the first day is always the best. The second day is usually fine, if a little subdued, but the third day is a waste. I've never pushed it any further personally - even three days in a row is enough to give me brain zaps for a day or two. However, a mate of mine pushed it much further and developed full blown schizophrenia. That was nearly 20 years ago and he's still suffering.

 

[Section813]

I'd estimate between 150-200 times. Maybe higher. Different mix of MDMA and all the known empathic focused analogs.

I'm 44 and my wife and I still dose fairly regularly. Maybe 2-3 times every couple months. It keeps our relationship close and free from resentment.

I'm a college graduate and I own my own business and employ 7 people. I don't detect any issues in cognitive function. Possibly some memory impairment but that could be that I'm getting older.w

FWIW oddly we've raised two adult daughters neither of which use.

I often look at threads here and marvel at folks rolling once and having issues with depression and mental impairment.

I wouldn't suggest anyone do what I have done. That being said I have these experiences that I wouldn't trade anything for. It's definitely made my life more interesting than it otherwise would have been. I'm very keen on empathy and can see and read people very quickly and efficiently.

I do exercise regularly and otherwise live a very healthy lifestyle. Very low use of alcohol. No fast food and eat healthy. Low body fat and athletic build.

I see no reason to stop at this point.

 

[psyloq]

Section, your personal story is an inspiration, man! Perhaps because I'm 40 myself, I have often questioned whether I'm doing the right thing in wanting to enrich my "soul" (as it were) through MDMA stimulation. You and your wife (and daughters too?) must have a super strong bond, I would imagine?