So I saw a few things online about this...got ahold of some. Never tried it before. Holy piss. It helped because I was on mars for about 5 min. Jesus. Didn?t break through like everyone talks about but I got to the door I?ll say that. It does help, nasty aftertaste in your mouth I?ll say that. ....
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Dmt to curb opiate withdrawal
- Thread starter indy500
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I would say that rather than helping with the withdrawal specifically, psychedelics like DMT can (the operative word here, not will) help with addiction in general because when you have a peak experience, it can be so transformational that you are able to suddenly see your behavior and the reasons for it in a brand new light. DMT is particular transports you pretty far from your body and its woes, too, which can help momentarily with withdrawal. I would advise you not to go overboard and use it too much. But DMT can certainly be a transformative experience. On the other hand, psychedelics can also exacerbate things when you're in a dark place, so be careful.
Yeah psychedelics definitely won't curb acute withdrawal symptoms from any drug.. that is just not possible on a physiological level. Nor will it remove post-acute withdrawal symptoms resulting from physiological mechanisms. That is to say- no drug can immediately reverse the changes in body and brain resulting from chronic drug use. Really, I think it's even safe to say no drug can reverse the changes at all, and will only cause more unnatural changes.
I don't want to be discouraging, but like Shadow mentioned, it is a very risky idea to be playing with. A large percentage of people who use psychedelics are looking for transformative experiences but if you look at most people who are using them- their life rarely changes dramatically in a positive direction as a result. I'd even argue that it never changes as a direct result of taking a psychedelic. People who wanted to get clean took the drug with the idea and plan to get clean already in their head, and when they come down they will still have to deal with acute and post-acute withdrawals. Then, if they ever relapse(like most everyone does) and get clean- was it the trip that got them clean a second time..? and if it was.. how many relapses is one trip good for?
I know I'm being pendantic, but my point is that no one needs some magic drug to get sober but everyone needs to put in the effort and hard work. There are certain drugs that can help like so called "comfort meds". Psychedelics are still on the fringe and not yet fully understood in a therapeutic context. Even among experienced users there are extremely mixed experiences ranging from euphoria to nightmarish dysphoria. There's also some extremely adverse effects/risks like psychosis and extreme depersonalization, and using while going through withdrawals seems like a recipe for disaster. I've taken droppers full of acid and I wouldn't touch the stuff while going through withdrawals.
Ayahuasca is commonly touted as a sort of magic bullet for opioid withdrawal, but at best those claims are highly deceptive. A millionaire just recently died in Mexico at one of these "rehabs". I personally don't think it is a good idea, but I know there are people who disagree. The original founder of Alcoholics Anonymous started experimenting with LSD years after AA had gained traction across the US. He believed it could serve as the first step of the 12, believing the trip would be a sort of "spiritual awakening". In a lot of ways I agree with him, and for some this might be true. However, when considering the physiological state of someone in withdrawal, particularly the mental state, it hardly seems like a good idea. Someone who is at risk of things like psychosis and probably already experiencing high levels of anxiety, paranoia, depression, and negative thoughts doesn't need a drug to amplify these things.
I'm open to new ideas, but until there is something more than spotty anecdotal evidence, i'm going to stick with comfort meds(including tapering) and talk-therapy(groups, counseling, even talking with friends) as being the current best methods for managing and coping with withdrawal symptoms.
I don't want to be discouraging, but like Shadow mentioned, it is a very risky idea to be playing with. A large percentage of people who use psychedelics are looking for transformative experiences but if you look at most people who are using them- their life rarely changes dramatically in a positive direction as a result. I'd even argue that it never changes as a direct result of taking a psychedelic. People who wanted to get clean took the drug with the idea and plan to get clean already in their head, and when they come down they will still have to deal with acute and post-acute withdrawals. Then, if they ever relapse(like most everyone does) and get clean- was it the trip that got them clean a second time..? and if it was.. how many relapses is one trip good for?
I know I'm being pendantic, but my point is that no one needs some magic drug to get sober but everyone needs to put in the effort and hard work. There are certain drugs that can help like so called "comfort meds". Psychedelics are still on the fringe and not yet fully understood in a therapeutic context. Even among experienced users there are extremely mixed experiences ranging from euphoria to nightmarish dysphoria. There's also some extremely adverse effects/risks like psychosis and extreme depersonalization, and using while going through withdrawals seems like a recipe for disaster. I've taken droppers full of acid and I wouldn't touch the stuff while going through withdrawals.
Ayahuasca is commonly touted as a sort of magic bullet for opioid withdrawal, but at best those claims are highly deceptive. A millionaire just recently died in Mexico at one of these "rehabs". I personally don't think it is a good idea, but I know there are people who disagree. The original founder of Alcoholics Anonymous started experimenting with LSD years after AA had gained traction across the US. He believed it could serve as the first step of the 12, believing the trip would be a sort of "spiritual awakening". In a lot of ways I agree with him, and for some this might be true. However, when considering the physiological state of someone in withdrawal, particularly the mental state, it hardly seems like a good idea. Someone who is at risk of things like psychosis and probably already experiencing high levels of anxiety, paranoia, depression, and negative thoughts doesn't need a drug to amplify these things.
I'm open to new ideas, but until there is something more than spotty anecdotal evidence, i'm going to stick with comfort meds(including tapering) and talk-therapy(groups, counseling, even talking with friends) as being the current best methods for managing and coping with withdrawal symptoms.
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In my opinion, psychedelics are better used after acute withdrawal, when you're more comfortable and on the way to recovery, in an attempt to change your perspective and gain some understanding about yourself.
The best psychedelic for addiction is ibogaine, hands down, especially for opiates. I did a flood dose 5 years ago to get past opiates and to this day I haven't touched another opiate and I don't want to, either. I did it when I was 90% of the way past acute withdrawals. However, ibogaine is a risky endeavor, as it can be dangerous, and the experience is overwhelmingly powerful and long-lasting (it lasted 3 days for me). It's also very expensive to go to a clinic, and if you do it at home (like I did) it requires a huge amount of preparation and constant experienced supervision, and a lot could go wrong.
Moral of the story: even ibogaine is best saved for after acute withdrawals are through, and ibogaine is the only one that actually pharmacologically can block opiate withdrawal.
The best psychedelic for addiction is ibogaine, hands down, especially for opiates. I did a flood dose 5 years ago to get past opiates and to this day I haven't touched another opiate and I don't want to, either. I did it when I was 90% of the way past acute withdrawals. However, ibogaine is a risky endeavor, as it can be dangerous, and the experience is overwhelmingly powerful and long-lasting (it lasted 3 days for me). It's also very expensive to go to a clinic, and if you do it at home (like I did) it requires a huge amount of preparation and constant experienced supervision, and a lot could go wrong.
Moral of the story: even ibogaine is best saved for after acute withdrawals are through, and ibogaine is the only one that actually pharmacologically can block opiate withdrawal.
I'd agree that they may have merit for dealing with post-acute withdrawal symptoms. But I'd need to see a citation on the claims about ibogaine, especially about it blocking opiate withdrawal. Based on the wiki page and the little browsing I did, there aren't a whole lot of verifiable claims that can be made about it at the moment. Besides it being a known psychedelic with dissociative properties that carries with it a lot of known risks, including potentially fatal heart problems and potentially neurotoxic at high doses, not much else can be said for certain beyond the lack of research.
Really, without short and long term follow up of a large control group it's extremely difficult to make claims about helping with recovery. Even if a person successfully got off heroin after taking something like ibogaine, how can one say that it was for certain the drug and not the strength of the individual? The individual clearly had intentions of getting sober, and demonstrated commitment to the goal by taking a drug that he/she believed would help despite the risks. It's impossible to weigh out placebo by anecdotal reports, and without short and long term follow up it's impossible to say if they fared any better than current methods(inpatient rehab, outpatient, individual counseling, AA/NA, methaone/bupe/vivtrol, etc)
I mean I got sober after getting locked up and having a psychotic episode while detoxing in solitary confinement. It worked for me, but no way in hell would I recommend that way to anyone.
Really, without short and long term follow up of a large control group it's extremely difficult to make claims about helping with recovery. Even if a person successfully got off heroin after taking something like ibogaine, how can one say that it was for certain the drug and not the strength of the individual? The individual clearly had intentions of getting sober, and demonstrated commitment to the goal by taking a drug that he/she believed would help despite the risks. It's impossible to weigh out placebo by anecdotal reports, and without short and long term follow up it's impossible to say if they fared any better than current methods(inpatient rehab, outpatient, individual counseling, AA/NA, methaone/bupe/vivtrol, etc)
I mean I got sober after getting locked up and having a psychotic episode while detoxing in solitary confinement. It worked for me, but no way in hell would I recommend that way to anyone.
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Ibogaine binds to opiate receptors (a weak mu-opioid agonist) as well as many other receptor sites. When you take it, you stop feeling withdrawals (or they are at least greatly attenuated) for the duration of its action at least. It does cause long QT syndrome so it can be dangerous for those with heart conditions. According to wiki, there is no evidence of neurotoxicity in primates, only in rats. It's certainly not without its risks, though. However there has been a fair amount of study on it, as it was discovered before the psychedelic prohibition period. Since it is illegal in the US still, there is no recent addiction-related peer-reviewed research; however, anecdotally great success is reported for opiate addiction treatment in many users (myself included). I attempted to use many psychedelics to move me past opiate addiction and iboga was absolutely different from the others. There's something going on there on a neurochemical level. I had the rest of my withdrawals blocked and never experienced PAWS although I did still have some lingering restlessness/insomnia for a few weeks.
But yes it can be dangerous, for sure. I see it as a last resort option. I did it when I was at the point of fantastizing about suicide daily and being absolutely sure I would never be able to get/stay off opiates, after 10 years and many attempts to quit, some successful for months.
But yes it can be dangerous, for sure. I see it as a last resort option. I did it when I was at the point of fantastizing about suicide daily and being absolutely sure I would never be able to get/stay off opiates, after 10 years and many attempts to quit, some successful for months.
https://archive.li/20120526225220/http://www.ibogaine.desk.nl/alkaloids.html
So it is a mild or weak opioid agonist, but so is kratom so I'm not really sure how it could remove acute withdrawal any better than a taper dose. It does have strong ssri properties so maybe that plays a role as well, but again if that's the mechanism by which it works then a combo of mild opioid agonist and ssri's would logically have similar effects I'd think- and to my knowledge, they do.. yet not really considered a miracle cure.
I definitely think it's interesting and in general it would be fascinating to see psychedelics explored in clinical settings with out the stigma. There seems to be some potential, but I'm far from convinced it's anything close to a miracle cure. I'm not trying to dismiss anyone's claim that it helped them.. maybe it really did, I am personally just convinced that people can do it on their own without chemical assistance. If it works for you, then it works for you I guess.
So it is a mild or weak opioid agonist, but so is kratom so I'm not really sure how it could remove acute withdrawal any better than a taper dose. It does have strong ssri properties so maybe that plays a role as well, but again if that's the mechanism by which it works then a combo of mild opioid agonist and ssri's would logically have similar effects I'd think- and to my knowledge, they do.. yet not really considered a miracle cure.
I definitely think it's interesting and in general it would be fascinating to see psychedelics explored in clinical settings with out the stigma. There seems to be some potential, but I'm far from convinced it's anything close to a miracle cure. I'm not trying to dismiss anyone's claim that it helped them.. maybe it really did, I am personally just convinced that people can do it on their own without chemical assistance. If it works for you, then it works for you I guess.
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I think the reason it works is because ibogaine itself has a long length of action, and then the primary metabolite, nor-ibogaine, has an even longer duration, so it will actually block for days on end. Anyway I'm not sure. I don't want to use the term "miracle" and I also want to emphasize that it doesn't work for plenty of people but the short-term success rate is very high as these things go. I think the combination of masking withdrawal along with the SSRI properties and the simple fact that it's an incredibly powerful experience in which people tend to have reviewed the nature of their pain/addiction from a warm and objective place tends to give you a good, short period of "reset", from which, if you're dedicated and make changes to your life, you can really start a long-term change (it worked so well for me because when I emerged from the experience I changed my patterns of behavior based on what I learned). You can, of course, do this on your own too. I mean really, it IS you doing it on your own, with a little push to change your mindset to start it off.
I guess we should stop talking about it in here as it's departed the point of this thread, but having tried everything and having done a lot or research into subjective reports and talking to others who did it (in my preparations to do it myself), and oif course doing it myself, I would really like for it to be studied more scientifically because it is certainly powerful medicine and I do believe that psychedelics, under the proper settings, can be powerful medicine for addiction. In fact decades of research (from before the demonization of psychedelics and restarting in recent times) suggests it to be so (not with ibogaine so much, mostly with psilocybin and LSD). Not a "miracle cure" by any means, but certainly something with success levels that are unprecedented in any other treatment methods (also for psychotherapy, particularly things like PTSD. Before the demonization of psychedelics there was a dearth of research in these areas).
In any case taking psychedelics on your own without safety measures or a guide is risky. It's great for some people, sometimes, but it can also be damaging in some cases.
I guess we should stop talking about it in here as it's departed the point of this thread, but having tried everything and having done a lot or research into subjective reports and talking to others who did it (in my preparations to do it myself), and oif course doing it myself, I would really like for it to be studied more scientifically because it is certainly powerful medicine and I do believe that psychedelics, under the proper settings, can be powerful medicine for addiction. In fact decades of research (from before the demonization of psychedelics and restarting in recent times) suggests it to be so (not with ibogaine so much, mostly with psilocybin and LSD). Not a "miracle cure" by any means, but certainly something with success levels that are unprecedented in any other treatment methods (also for psychotherapy, particularly things like PTSD. Before the demonization of psychedelics there was a dearth of research in these areas).
In any case taking psychedelics on your own without safety measures or a guide is risky. It's great for some people, sometimes, but it can also be damaging in some cases.
I?ve heard positives and negs about kratom. The real devil in all this, and I noticed you brought up the 4 letters nucynta/tapendadol nail...SSRI. Those damn things melt your brain more than dmt or anything else. I took cymbalta...once. Doc said it might make me sleepy so...
4p at small sample dosage, 50mg maybe? Whatever smallest is
6p staring out my window and wife was asking where I was, in a joking manner
9p passed out in bed
12a woke up and told wife I can?t get to sleep. She told me I had been snoring for 3 hours straight
2a-5a walked around house paranoid af.
Never took the drug again. But tapwndadol has the ssri with it and man it really pegs you when coming off at an escalated rate. Or if you forget it, it?s schedule 2, can?t call in out of state or anything. So you need to score oxy or something just to get through the night or here comes shit creek cruise ship
4p at small sample dosage, 50mg maybe? Whatever smallest is
6p staring out my window and wife was asking where I was, in a joking manner
9p passed out in bed
12a woke up and told wife I can?t get to sleep. She told me I had been snoring for 3 hours straight
2a-5a walked around house paranoid af.
Never took the drug again. But tapwndadol has the ssri with it and man it really pegs you when coming off at an escalated rate. Or if you forget it, it?s schedule 2, can?t call in out of state or anything. So you need to score oxy or something just to get through the night or here comes shit creek cruise ship
Shadow- It has a relatively normal half life, so I don't really see how it could have lasting effects, but admittedly I can't say for certain one way or another. I think your last sentence sums it up pretty well. Some people report pretty amazing results while others report some pretty terrible and horrendous results. It's a mixed bag from one end of the spectrum to the other, definitely far from a miracle cure but that doesn't rule out it's potential usefulness. I think we are both in complete agreement that if someone decided to take the risk, it should be done with caution.
Indy, if you have any other questions or concerns I'll address them in your other thread. For now I'll leave this thread open for discussion about psychedelics and opioid withdrawal if anyone has anything else to add.
Indy, if you have any other questions or concerns I'll address them in your other thread. For now I'll leave this thread open for discussion about psychedelics and opioid withdrawal if anyone has anything else to add.
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Just wanted to mention re: the half-life of ibogaine discussion... I looked into it more, and indeed it does have a rather short half-life compared to the durations reported. However, ibogaine is active in as little as 8mg, and a flood dose is 1200mg-1500mg (or even more, it depends on body weight). Which is MANY, MANY times the active dose. So, it takes quite a lot of half-lives to stop being active. That is why it lasts so long. Plus, the metabolite nor-ibogaine has a much longer half-life and is quite active as well, and also as an antidepressant.