2,5-dimethoxy-4-bromo-β-nitrostyrene
- Thread starter JulesJB
- Start date
The nitrostyrenes are toxic and not psychoactive(?) in their own rite. If they are psychoactive, it is perhaps in a not-so-pleasant and non-psychedelic way i.e. a toxic reaction. A chemical reaction must occur successfully for them to become the corresponding relatively non-toxic 2c-x phenethylamine. Say you live in a place where an obscure 2c-x is legal, and there is no analog act, and you do not plan to sell or distribute said legal 2c-x. However, said 2c-x is so rare you cannot find it online or whatever you find you cannot verify. In this case and only this case, a person that knows what they're doing can order the corresponding nitrostyrene and prepare their own. Otherwise it is manufacturing a schedule I drug with intent to sell. For this reason alone I wouldn't trust any website clearnet or otherwise that sells the corresponding nitrostyrene for things such as 2c-b.
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Yeah my take is that they're hoping someone will use them to make 2C-B. They also have a 2C-T-7 precursor.
DO NOT try to take these though. I feel fairly sure that someone will buy them and think "ooh it's like 2C-B" and try to trip on it and poison themselves.
DO NOT try to take these though. I feel fairly sure that someone will buy them and think "ooh it's like 2C-B" and try to trip on it and poison themselves.
I mean... it's a more or less "legit" clearnet vendor, and it's a precursor for a drug that has been illegal in the country they are based in for a pretty long time, so it is not unlikely they explicitly acquired this substance in order to sell it as a precursor, rather than convert it themselves. Then again, they wouldn't be the first to simultaneously run a grey-market RC operation on the clearnet and one for full-on illegal stuff on the darknet.
At any rate: Yes, the nitrostyrenes/nitropropenes are indeed the immediate precursors to the phenylethylamines/amphetamines, and can be converted with relative ease by a qualified chemist with the appropriate lab setup. Again, the emphasis here is on "relative", "qualified" and "appropriate lab setup".
Reducing agents are quite literally nothing to be sneezed at, as they will generally react violently with moisture, releasing hot, caustic bases and flammable hydrogen gas; some of them are also pyrophoric, meaning they can straight up spontaneously ignite upon exposure to the oxygen in the air.
Basically, this is one of those "If you need to ask, you probably don't want to do it" kind of things.
P.S: Interestingly, I guess it would be possible for the nitro group to get reduced to the amine in-vivo, although I doubt this would happen at a fast enough rate for the substance to be psychoactive. With clonazepam, almost the whole dose ends up being reduced to 7-aminoclonazepam before being excreted, but the fact that clonazepam is still a pretty long-lasting benzo also suggests that this reaction isn't all that quick.
Sure, the hydroxylamine versions of the 2C series (the HOT-x series) do seem to be virtually identical to the amines in terms of their effects in the human body, but enzymatically reducing a hydroxylamine to an amine is obviously a much easier process than going from a nitro group to an amine (one requiring the transfer of just 2 electrons, the other that of 6).
Limpet_Chicken
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Definitely don't ingest them, physically they are quite irritating, and the vapors are like teargas if one were unprotected. Very irritating to things like skin, mucus membranes, I don't doubt also to eyes, anywhere else sensitive.
But yes, if you are going to do anything with them, that double bond needs to go, and the nitro reduced to the amine (or hydroxylamine in the case of HOT-things)
But yes, if you are going to do anything with them, that double bond needs to go, and the nitro reduced to the amine (or hydroxylamine in the case of HOT-things)
blistersinthedark
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Those particular nitrostyrene listings highlight the problem with perpetuating the whole "not for human consumption" bullshit on RC stores... because in this case it actually is poison. I wonder if the seller warn whoever orders this that it really, absolutely is not for human consumption, because I don't see any difference in the wording. Maybe adding hazard symbols would help?
Limpet_Chicken
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I've seen hazard symbols, even skull-and-crossbones sigils on RCs, materials intended for human consumption, with the hazard symbols added as boilerplate bollocks that everybody knows full well is just arse-covering intended to protect the companies, who know damn well that the purchasers know damn well they know damn well that said customers are going to put their merchandise down their neck, up their arse, up the nose, in their veins and whatever else one could think of bar intrathecal injection or ICV administration.
The nitrostyrenes, nitropropenes, are DEFINITELY NOT, however, fit for human consumption.
Whether or not nitro>amine reduction occurs in vivo, it isn't something one wants to try.
To put it into perspective, this being a nitropropene, rather than nitrostyrene, unsubstituted 1-phenyl-2-beta-nitropropene, before figuring out a simple rolled up wad of bog roll in the flask neck would prevent the vapor escaping, first time with the particular reaction protocol, a solventless Knoevanagel, equimolar nitroethane, benzaldehyde, all ACS grade, so this was due to the nitroalkene itself, no GAA present to give off choking acid fumes, and the amine catalyst, a mixture of 90% triethylenetetramine, and 10% 3,6-diazooctaneethylenediamine, both as acetate salts, prepared via neutralization of GAA with the mixed amines;
Followed by microwaving the reaction mixture, at the first try, 15-20 min total irradiation time, although subsequently efforts have been made at refining the process, intermittent irradiation-cooling cycles, cold water bath back to RT after irradiation at 65-70 'C, never deliberately allowing it to rise above 85 'C, unstirred, due to lacking a suitable stirrer-equipped microwave, either specially designed, or hacked by the chemist who performed this.
I was present to witness it, and before that chemist figured out the use of a bog-roll plug in the flask neck, in order to allow pressure to remain normal, since a stopper and clip would result in overpressure and explosion, without a doubt, especially given MW irradiation heating behaves rather non-linearly, from 20 'C to 60-70 might take 15 seconds, but from 40 to 120 might well shoot up there in a few seconds (the 15s figure is not correct, it's to illustrate the point of how differently the temperature will rise dependent upon the temperature a liquid is at before microwaving), in this case, it was a 900 watt household microwave oven. 15-20min, rather than 6 hours on a steam bath, better purity, even visually, no orange discoloration of the P2NP, nice and yellow, as it ought to be, still needs recrystallization of course, and washing, etc.to remove the catalyst, washing with bisulfite solution to adduct out any benz left over unreacted, by heating the mixed adduct/nitropropene in dry isopropanol, followed by saturated NaCl brine washes to dispose of any decomp. remnants of bisulfite/metabisulfite used (the aldehyde precursor must be stripped out thoroughly, for certain methods of reduction, in particular, the in-situ generation and use of copper boride from CuCl2/NaBH4, this working not on the nitropropene; but is used rather, on the nitropropANE, prepared via reduction of the double bond using excess borohydride (if not in excess, a parasitic Michael addition can take place 'twixt nitroalkene and nitroalkane, the result being polymerized shite, which cannot be salvaged, and is fit only for incineration as organic garbage, and for practicing one's multilingual swearing. So a 5-6 fold molar excess of borohydride ought to be used, in order that the first thing a molecule of incoming nitroalkene meets, is a molecule of borohydride, even when there has been plenty nitroalkane formed as the boro does it's job and reduces that pesky wee double bond, allowing then, techniques for reduction of the nitro group that couldn't be used on the nitroalkene)
And with the copper boride technique, aldehydes apparently interfere with the reduction. So forming a bisulfite adduct, and taking advantage of their insolubility as a general principle, bisulfite adducts are insoluble as buggery in most anything you throw at them which doesn't actually react with one, then bringing to brief reflux in isopropanol, of an already saturated solution of the P2NP in dry iPA, allows one to dissolve the P2NP, leaving the bisulfite adduct of residual benzaldehyde still solid, to be vacuum-filtered off, bing, bang, buggrit, there you go, aldehyde goes bye-bye, and can even be recovered if one saves the adduct over multiple runs until there is enough to be worth hydrolyzing, if benzaldehyde is to the chemist, a scarce resource, to some it is, some must make it, scrounge it, rather than buy it.
The chemist running that MW synthesis I..watched, just fortunate enough that neither nitroethane or benzaldehyde in ACS grade are resources that are hard to obtain or excessively expensive. He has his ways
Anyhow, microwaving, that first time without the bog roll plug, goggles all round, which, unfortunately, before I replaced my own with a set with a nice comfy silicone rubber seal, the old set had air vents in the side. Fine for stopping something nasty splattering in your eyes, but where gases or vapourized things are about, not nice.
You've never seen someone swap gas masks (I've two, one better than the other, I don't trust the old one now, for anything mission-critical, after an incident whilst distilling iodine monochloride, where the non-return seal valve which makes sure that inhaled air is drawn through the filter cartridges, not directly inhaled from whatever is hanging around in the air, slipped off a retaining post, and I got a tiny breath of the stuff. Left me on an inhaler for a bit over a week (I'm not asthmatic, I just couldn't fucking breathe), had I not JUST managed to detect a really, really faint trace of a halogen-esque odour, as I always breathe via my nose when using a gas mask, so that IF something goes wrong, I'm more likely to know it, and be able to respond before something gets me....the ICl very nearly did. If I'd not detected that slight smell, not even enough to be irritating at the time, not like even a wee bit of chlorine or bromine in the air, no more irritating than the air one would breathe after opening a tub of iodine crystals that's been kept in the fridge without a mask, from 4 feet or so away, and of little more odor at the concentration concerned when the old mask slipped that valve, than one would perceive from holding a chunk of iodine maybe an inch long and a half inch to three quarter inch thick, and using one hand to waft air towards one's nose whilst holding the I2 'rock' in the other, fingers turning terrorist-brown of course.
If I'd not realized that the odor was due to the iodine monochloride, and despite it appearing non-threatening in terms of lack of irritation or coughing at the time, and run like fuck out of the area, that could well have killed me. That one tiny breath, was enough to really fuck me up, could barely breathe, wheezing, hacking, coughing, originally some slight haemoptysis, I was so close to going to hospital, only reason I didn't, is that I know my doctor, he knows me, and he's made home visits, seen glassware, knows I know chemistry from explaining why I wanted various medications as opposed to other particular ones, couldn't hide it so I was just open and said 'yeah, I like chemistry, I'm autistic, it's what I DO, go figure
)
And had I gone to hospital and said 'I've just been gassed by iodine monochloride because my gas mask shat a brick'......I can well imagine that A-the medics would have shat a few bricks of their own, not knowing that there IS a difference between 'person who practices chemistry outside a university or research institute' and 'worships Allah and wants nothing more to exterminate all infidel kaffir filth from the face of the earth' [i'm white, and atheist, but still, a great number of bog standard neurotypical citizens of various countries are chemophobic as hell, and think 'chemicals' are those things you keep under the sink in a cupboard, are scary, or else the sort of things found in nuclear plants, exotic, esoteric, occult-esque things handled by men in white coats with names that the citizen cannot pronounce and which terrify them]
And B-while my GP, who I've known for years, and who knows full well I'm a spazz chem/bio-freak, so I can be honest with him, I knew he wouldn't freak, call the cops (I was breaking no law, but the filth would nick you anyway, trash your lab, just because 'arrggh--he's got CHEMICALS!!! and GLASSWARE!!!' EVIL! HERESY! KILL IT WITH FIRE!')
And that he would trust my guidance on how to treat me, since of course, your average GP, or hospital doctor, has probably never HEARD of iodine monochloride, much less what to do if a patient comes in and says they've just been gassed by it.
Anyhow, that mask, off, the good new one on, QUICKLY, after the chemist doing the synth, had the non-linearity of microwave heating come into play, and briefly, the temperature of the batch of P2NP being prepared, the nitroethane/benzaldehyde/catalyst reaction mixture, it shot up like a rocket to the point of it refluxing, needing an instant response, dunking in a cooling bath, and once cooled enough to avoid thermal shock being a risk, on salted ice to bring the temperature down ASAP.
The vapour....fuck me, the vent holes to prevent fogging in those shitty older goggles, before I splashed out on a face visor, more like a diving mask, that seals tight to the face (it fogs, quickly, but a neat trick is to dilute some fairy liquid in tap water, dab a bit onto some kitchen towel or bog roll, and wipe it round the inside over the glass, the detergent stops it fogging up the visor), it let in the vapour of P2NP that was in the air, and my eyes were stinging like hell, changing masks, that wasn't fun either, left my nose streaming, me coughing and emitting a constant stream of gas mask-muffled profanity, whilst also resorting to profanities in american sign language just for good measure, even the areas of my face not covered by mask or visor, were stinging and irritated. Neck, etc. Head, you name it, it stung, anywhere the vapour could reach.
No injury done, but it was most unpleasant, after the temperature spike, and vaporization of unsubstituted P2NP.
Even not hot, just using methanol as a solvent (it's extremely soluble in methanol, more or less utterly insoluble in water), although using MeOH, it's asking for a pain in the ass, isopropanol is much better and much nicer to be working with as a solvent for P2NP), addition of MeOH to P2NP, if one is close enough to be in range of the vapor at all, gives off enough P2NP traces to be irritating. Hence the use of isopropanol, which also makes a much superior recrystallization solvent for the phenylnitropropene in question, it's just all around better chemically and better for the chemist in terms of being more pleasant to proceed thus.
So whilst I never have, and never will ingest it, I imagine that it would be, at the very most optimistic of the consequences of swallowing some, be extremely unpleasant. Not to mention that there's the potential for it to undergo a Nef reaction with the hydrochloric acid in the stomach, which would give the ketone, P2P (phenylacetone, 1-phenyl-2-propanone, another precursor well beloved of amphetamine chemists, either for reductive amination to form N-alkylamphetamines, or to go via the ketoxime and reduce to the primary amine, amphetamine itself, which for psychedelic amphetamines, the primary amine is pretty much critical, N-substitution with an alkyl group stomps on the psychedelic activity, with the exclusion of entactogen types like MD(M)A, but of course, simple stimulants, well, meth is well known as well known gets, and N-ethylamphetamine, whilst neither so potent by weight, as meth, nor as well known, it is still more potent by a significant degree compared to plain primary amine 'phet, shares in the long duration of meth, but is smoother than either of them.
IMO, it's the connoisseur's stimulant-type amphetamine. A fine ale, compared to a can of special brew, especially, if someone goes to the trouble of resolving the isomers, and tasting of the D-isomer alone, or else, running a biosynthesis which is enantioselective and produces enantiopure D-amphetamines, then, it'd be more the speed equivalent of a craft ale, served in a frosty mug on a roasting hot day, after one is fatigued, hungry, thirsty and generally shattered, with a big buggering great black forest gateaux with one's five pints of the best
But, the nitrostyrenes and nitropropenes used for preparing phenethylamines, amphetamines and some routes to some tryptamines, you do NOT want to ingest them, you don't even want to inhale the vapors, get the stuff on your bare skin, or scratch your nackers after pulling off your gloves and find you'd gotten a trace of the nitroalkene on your fingers, and thence onto one's testicular containment unit.
Believe you me, I'm not joking. Scratching your balls with unbeknownst to the ball-scratcher, those phenylnitroalkenes hiding on fingers from taking off the gloves, oh damn. Do it once, and you'll take your gloves off with a set of tweezers or surgical artery forceps every time you make a phenylnitroalkene for the rest of your life. It'll burn for HOURS, at the very least. Badly enough you might even get desperate enough to soak a towel in diluted isopropanol and scrub your bollocks until you can't bear the burning alcohol any longer, since water won't get it off.
One time, just the once, and you'll be so careful you'll make an expert neurosurgeon look like a drunken oaf with parkinson's disease, when it comes to removing your gloves.
The nitrostyrenes, nitropropenes, are DEFINITELY NOT, however, fit for human consumption.
Whether or not nitro>amine reduction occurs in vivo, it isn't something one wants to try.
To put it into perspective, this being a nitropropene, rather than nitrostyrene, unsubstituted 1-phenyl-2-beta-nitropropene, before figuring out a simple rolled up wad of bog roll in the flask neck would prevent the vapor escaping, first time with the particular reaction protocol, a solventless Knoevanagel, equimolar nitroethane, benzaldehyde, all ACS grade, so this was due to the nitroalkene itself, no GAA present to give off choking acid fumes, and the amine catalyst, a mixture of 90% triethylenetetramine, and 10% 3,6-diazooctaneethylenediamine, both as acetate salts, prepared via neutralization of GAA with the mixed amines;
Followed by microwaving the reaction mixture, at the first try, 15-20 min total irradiation time, although subsequently efforts have been made at refining the process, intermittent irradiation-cooling cycles, cold water bath back to RT after irradiation at 65-70 'C, never deliberately allowing it to rise above 85 'C, unstirred, due to lacking a suitable stirrer-equipped microwave, either specially designed, or hacked by the chemist who performed this.
I was present to witness it, and before that chemist figured out the use of a bog-roll plug in the flask neck, in order to allow pressure to remain normal, since a stopper and clip would result in overpressure and explosion, without a doubt, especially given MW irradiation heating behaves rather non-linearly, from 20 'C to 60-70 might take 15 seconds, but from 40 to 120 might well shoot up there in a few seconds (the 15s figure is not correct, it's to illustrate the point of how differently the temperature will rise dependent upon the temperature a liquid is at before microwaving), in this case, it was a 900 watt household microwave oven. 15-20min, rather than 6 hours on a steam bath, better purity, even visually, no orange discoloration of the P2NP, nice and yellow, as it ought to be, still needs recrystallization of course, and washing, etc.to remove the catalyst, washing with bisulfite solution to adduct out any benz left over unreacted, by heating the mixed adduct/nitropropene in dry isopropanol, followed by saturated NaCl brine washes to dispose of any decomp. remnants of bisulfite/metabisulfite used (the aldehyde precursor must be stripped out thoroughly, for certain methods of reduction, in particular, the in-situ generation and use of copper boride from CuCl2/NaBH4, this working not on the nitropropene; but is used rather, on the nitropropANE, prepared via reduction of the double bond using excess borohydride (if not in excess, a parasitic Michael addition can take place 'twixt nitroalkene and nitroalkane, the result being polymerized shite, which cannot be salvaged, and is fit only for incineration as organic garbage, and for practicing one's multilingual swearing. So a 5-6 fold molar excess of borohydride ought to be used, in order that the first thing a molecule of incoming nitroalkene meets, is a molecule of borohydride, even when there has been plenty nitroalkane formed as the boro does it's job and reduces that pesky wee double bond, allowing then, techniques for reduction of the nitro group that couldn't be used on the nitroalkene)
And with the copper boride technique, aldehydes apparently interfere with the reduction. So forming a bisulfite adduct, and taking advantage of their insolubility as a general principle, bisulfite adducts are insoluble as buggery in most anything you throw at them which doesn't actually react with one, then bringing to brief reflux in isopropanol, of an already saturated solution of the P2NP in dry iPA, allows one to dissolve the P2NP, leaving the bisulfite adduct of residual benzaldehyde still solid, to be vacuum-filtered off, bing, bang, buggrit, there you go, aldehyde goes bye-bye, and can even be recovered if one saves the adduct over multiple runs until there is enough to be worth hydrolyzing, if benzaldehyde is to the chemist, a scarce resource, to some it is, some must make it, scrounge it, rather than buy it.
The chemist running that MW synthesis I..watched, just fortunate enough that neither nitroethane or benzaldehyde in ACS grade are resources that are hard to obtain or excessively expensive. He has his ways
Anyhow, microwaving, that first time without the bog roll plug, goggles all round, which, unfortunately, before I replaced my own with a set with a nice comfy silicone rubber seal, the old set had air vents in the side. Fine for stopping something nasty splattering in your eyes, but where gases or vapourized things are about, not nice.
You've never seen someone swap gas masks (I've two, one better than the other, I don't trust the old one now, for anything mission-critical, after an incident whilst distilling iodine monochloride, where the non-return seal valve which makes sure that inhaled air is drawn through the filter cartridges, not directly inhaled from whatever is hanging around in the air, slipped off a retaining post, and I got a tiny breath of the stuff. Left me on an inhaler for a bit over a week (I'm not asthmatic, I just couldn't fucking breathe), had I not JUST managed to detect a really, really faint trace of a halogen-esque odour, as I always breathe via my nose when using a gas mask, so that IF something goes wrong, I'm more likely to know it, and be able to respond before something gets me....the ICl very nearly did. If I'd not detected that slight smell, not even enough to be irritating at the time, not like even a wee bit of chlorine or bromine in the air, no more irritating than the air one would breathe after opening a tub of iodine crystals that's been kept in the fridge without a mask, from 4 feet or so away, and of little more odor at the concentration concerned when the old mask slipped that valve, than one would perceive from holding a chunk of iodine maybe an inch long and a half inch to three quarter inch thick, and using one hand to waft air towards one's nose whilst holding the I2 'rock' in the other, fingers turning terrorist-brown of course.
If I'd not realized that the odor was due to the iodine monochloride, and despite it appearing non-threatening in terms of lack of irritation or coughing at the time, and run like fuck out of the area, that could well have killed me. That one tiny breath, was enough to really fuck me up, could barely breathe, wheezing, hacking, coughing, originally some slight haemoptysis, I was so close to going to hospital, only reason I didn't, is that I know my doctor, he knows me, and he's made home visits, seen glassware, knows I know chemistry from explaining why I wanted various medications as opposed to other particular ones, couldn't hide it so I was just open and said 'yeah, I like chemistry, I'm autistic, it's what I DO, go figure
)And had I gone to hospital and said 'I've just been gassed by iodine monochloride because my gas mask shat a brick'......I can well imagine that A-the medics would have shat a few bricks of their own, not knowing that there IS a difference between 'person who practices chemistry outside a university or research institute' and 'worships Allah and wants nothing more to exterminate all infidel kaffir filth from the face of the earth' [i'm white, and atheist, but still, a great number of bog standard neurotypical citizens of various countries are chemophobic as hell, and think 'chemicals' are those things you keep under the sink in a cupboard, are scary, or else the sort of things found in nuclear plants, exotic, esoteric, occult-esque things handled by men in white coats with names that the citizen cannot pronounce and which terrify them]
And B-while my GP, who I've known for years, and who knows full well I'm a spazz chem/bio-freak, so I can be honest with him, I knew he wouldn't freak, call the cops (I was breaking no law, but the filth would nick you anyway, trash your lab, just because 'arrggh--he's got CHEMICALS!!! and GLASSWARE!!!' EVIL! HERESY! KILL IT WITH FIRE!')
And that he would trust my guidance on how to treat me, since of course, your average GP, or hospital doctor, has probably never HEARD of iodine monochloride, much less what to do if a patient comes in and says they've just been gassed by it.
Anyhow, that mask, off, the good new one on, QUICKLY, after the chemist doing the synth, had the non-linearity of microwave heating come into play, and briefly, the temperature of the batch of P2NP being prepared, the nitroethane/benzaldehyde/catalyst reaction mixture, it shot up like a rocket to the point of it refluxing, needing an instant response, dunking in a cooling bath, and once cooled enough to avoid thermal shock being a risk, on salted ice to bring the temperature down ASAP.
The vapour....fuck me, the vent holes to prevent fogging in those shitty older goggles, before I splashed out on a face visor, more like a diving mask, that seals tight to the face (it fogs, quickly, but a neat trick is to dilute some fairy liquid in tap water, dab a bit onto some kitchen towel or bog roll, and wipe it round the inside over the glass, the detergent stops it fogging up the visor), it let in the vapour of P2NP that was in the air, and my eyes were stinging like hell, changing masks, that wasn't fun either, left my nose streaming, me coughing and emitting a constant stream of gas mask-muffled profanity, whilst also resorting to profanities in american sign language just for good measure, even the areas of my face not covered by mask or visor, were stinging and irritated. Neck, etc. Head, you name it, it stung, anywhere the vapour could reach.
No injury done, but it was most unpleasant, after the temperature spike, and vaporization of unsubstituted P2NP.
Even not hot, just using methanol as a solvent (it's extremely soluble in methanol, more or less utterly insoluble in water), although using MeOH, it's asking for a pain in the ass, isopropanol is much better and much nicer to be working with as a solvent for P2NP), addition of MeOH to P2NP, if one is close enough to be in range of the vapor at all, gives off enough P2NP traces to be irritating. Hence the use of isopropanol, which also makes a much superior recrystallization solvent for the phenylnitropropene in question, it's just all around better chemically and better for the chemist in terms of being more pleasant to proceed thus.
So whilst I never have, and never will ingest it, I imagine that it would be, at the very most optimistic of the consequences of swallowing some, be extremely unpleasant. Not to mention that there's the potential for it to undergo a Nef reaction with the hydrochloric acid in the stomach, which would give the ketone, P2P (phenylacetone, 1-phenyl-2-propanone, another precursor well beloved of amphetamine chemists, either for reductive amination to form N-alkylamphetamines, or to go via the ketoxime and reduce to the primary amine, amphetamine itself, which for psychedelic amphetamines, the primary amine is pretty much critical, N-substitution with an alkyl group stomps on the psychedelic activity, with the exclusion of entactogen types like MD(M)A, but of course, simple stimulants, well, meth is well known as well known gets, and N-ethylamphetamine, whilst neither so potent by weight, as meth, nor as well known, it is still more potent by a significant degree compared to plain primary amine 'phet, shares in the long duration of meth, but is smoother than either of them.
IMO, it's the connoisseur's stimulant-type amphetamine. A fine ale, compared to a can of special brew, especially, if someone goes to the trouble of resolving the isomers, and tasting of the D-isomer alone, or else, running a biosynthesis which is enantioselective and produces enantiopure D-amphetamines, then, it'd be more the speed equivalent of a craft ale, served in a frosty mug on a roasting hot day, after one is fatigued, hungry, thirsty and generally shattered, with a big buggering great black forest gateaux with one's five pints of the best
But, the nitrostyrenes and nitropropenes used for preparing phenethylamines, amphetamines and some routes to some tryptamines, you do NOT want to ingest them, you don't even want to inhale the vapors, get the stuff on your bare skin, or scratch your nackers after pulling off your gloves and find you'd gotten a trace of the nitroalkene on your fingers, and thence onto one's testicular containment unit.
Believe you me, I'm not joking. Scratching your balls with unbeknownst to the ball-scratcher, those phenylnitroalkenes hiding on fingers from taking off the gloves, oh damn. Do it once, and you'll take your gloves off with a set of tweezers or surgical artery forceps every time you make a phenylnitroalkene for the rest of your life. It'll burn for HOURS, at the very least. Badly enough you might even get desperate enough to soak a towel in diluted isopropanol and scrub your bollocks until you can't bear the burning alcohol any longer, since water won't get it off.
One time, just the once, and you'll be so careful you'll make an expert neurosurgeon look like a drunken oaf with parkinson's disease, when it comes to removing your gloves.
Limpet_Chicken
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And if they ARE metabolized to a psychoactive result, you'd be too busy screaming and vomiting and shitting yourself, with a side-salad of choking and spluttering and struggling to breathe through your inflamed throat, to have a nice trip.
Probably not what one could call the best sort of set and setting, for a trip; gastroenteritis and a throat that feels like it's been filled with enraged fire ants and battery acid.
Probably not what one could call the best sort of set and setting, for a trip; gastroenteritis and a throat that feels like it's been filled with enraged fire ants and battery acid.
Solipsis
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Wtf man lol.. yea i think you showed well why not to take the nitrostyrenes but not sure if anyone was really planning on consuming them after learning what they are.
I haven't read your post in entirety but I found that there is an apparently really easy (relatively speaking, for a chemist) synth to make the PEAs, using palladium (which is fucked up stuff i think, but ok you can recycle it).
Not sure how many people would do that just for their own bees.. but it does mean it indirectly makes bees available to those who would.
@ blisters: Common sense should tell people not to just consume random chemicals without knowing what they are, it's not candy. I'm not sure you have any business experimenting with them if you just read "not for human consumption" as the opposite, being used to it.
I haven't read your post in entirety but I found that there is an apparently really easy (relatively speaking, for a chemist) synth to make the PEAs, using palladium (which is fucked up stuff i think, but ok you can recycle it).
Not sure how many people would do that just for their own bees.. but it does mean it indirectly makes bees available to those who would.
@ blisters: Common sense should tell people not to just consume random chemicals without knowing what they are, it's not candy. I'm not sure you have any business experimenting with them if you just read "not for human consumption" as the opposite, being used to it.
Limpet_Chicken
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There's some Ruthenium (and some iridium analogs of the series) catalysts, organoruthenium cats for hydrogenation which are chiral, and capable of chiral, enantiopure reduction of for example, imines, oximes wouldn't surprise me either. Not sure specifically about nitroalkenes, but hey, would be interesting)
And what's fucked about Pd cats? Not cheap, although 1g PdCl2 will get you a fair bit of Pd/C, or a fair bit more, in the case of something like a fairly complex organoruthenium or organoiridium complex with a single Pt-group metal per molecule.
It's nowhere near as fucked up as newbees starting buggering with Al/Hg amalgam reductions IMO. That's asking for some poor newbee to get his hard-worked-for wings burnt off. In a real nasty way too, what with the likes of Hg (II) chloride being used in making the amalgam)
Not as experienced with nitrostyrenes, as I am with nitropropenes. Are they quite as bad a lot of irritant little shits as the nitropropenes are?
Because those can bee right little fuckers, with quite a talent for biting the unwary in the ass. Or the unlucky on their ballsack
Funny looking back at it, but it really wasn't at the time!. P2NP on yer nadgers ain't a nice way to spend an evening trying to recrystallize the rest of the same, as you're watching the thiele tube, thermometer inside with microcapillary tube strapped on with a pair of thin wire-ties, holding the magnifying glass with one hand, whilst constantly scratching your steroid cream-covered scrotum with the other and thinking 'why did it have to be me, WHY, and WHY did it have to be when there's a bloody multi-mole recrystallization to do and a whole lot of sitting before a hot water bath with a magnifying glass and a pair of gonads which are constantly complaining to one's CNS via the nociceptor hotline, that their owner is currently bathing them in a jar of roughly shaken, very unhappy fire-ants.
And what's fucked about Pd cats? Not cheap, although 1g PdCl2 will get you a fair bit of Pd/C, or a fair bit more, in the case of something like a fairly complex organoruthenium or organoiridium complex with a single Pt-group metal per molecule.
It's nowhere near as fucked up as newbees starting buggering with Al/Hg amalgam reductions IMO. That's asking for some poor newbee to get his hard-worked-for wings burnt off. In a real nasty way too, what with the likes of Hg (II) chloride being used in making the amalgam)
Not as experienced with nitrostyrenes, as I am with nitropropenes. Are they quite as bad a lot of irritant little shits as the nitropropenes are?
Because those can bee right little fuckers, with quite a talent for biting the unwary in the ass. Or the unlucky on their ballsack
Funny looking back at it, but it really wasn't at the time!. P2NP on yer nadgers ain't a nice way to spend an evening trying to recrystallize the rest of the same, as you're watching the thiele tube, thermometer inside with microcapillary tube strapped on with a pair of thin wire-ties, holding the magnifying glass with one hand, whilst constantly scratching your steroid cream-covered scrotum with the other and thinking 'why did it have to be me, WHY, and WHY did it have to be when there's a bloody multi-mole recrystallization to do and a whole lot of sitting before a hot water bath with a magnifying glass and a pair of gonads which are constantly complaining to one's CNS via the nociceptor hotline, that their owner is currently bathing them in a jar of roughly shaken, very unhappy fire-ants.
blistersinthedark
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I'm not sure what your point is here... the reality is that the near entirety of RC users disregard those warnings off the bat, so what's the point in having them in the first place? Everyone knows those substances are being sold because of their psychotropic effects, let's not kid ourselves. The warning is there to protect the vendors from liability more than anything else. Yes, of course in theory we should all use extreme caution, test everything etc. but you and I know this is not at all what's going on in reality, and many people are always happy to become guinea pigs and will try anything new. (I find your response bordering on patronizing in that regard, TBH).
And then we have these precursor products, the likes of which I've never seen listed on RC sites before (correct me if there have). They're being sold alongside relatively benign 4-subs, with the same warning. I'm just pointing out that this is irresponsible. How is the average RC user supposed to discriminate the level of risk and know that the warning is to be taken very seriously in this case?
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cj187
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I agree that the description is irresponsible, I thought the same thing when I saw it. Why mention that the pharmacology is unknown? That kind of implies that it is a psychoactive drug, just like all the other research chemicals on the site that say the same thing in their description. Why mention that it's a derivative of 2C-B? Anybody who doesn't already know what it is has no business buying it. Clearly the vendor wants people to buy it not knowing what it is just because it's related to 2C-B.
Solipsis
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The point is that not the "not for human consumption" label is leading in being ignored like I obviously agree we all do... but that we have to all educate ourselves and think for ourselves beyond that. I think what might help to make my response seem patronizing and the reality quite stark is that too many people using these compounds do not have the basis of understanding to venture to where they do. I'm not saying I judge people personally, I have overextended myself despite a high level education at the time (it didnt work out and I am not braggin about anything I hope you realize).
I am just calling out the discrepancy and the danger in becoming a willing guinea pig, so overzealous that we disregard due diligence. And I am also just trying to warn anyone reading that this absolutely not how to take true "RC's" since by not being skeptical yourself, you are entirely letting your safety depend on some random vendor which tends to be primarily interested in profit. It's better to think of it as a market of any random shit (not just what you're looking for) being offered, almost at random. Do you still feel confident to just pick something?
The whole point here is that the upside of trying something new should not be leading, but the potential downsides you are clueless about - otherwise you are truly playing Russian roulette and yeah I've read the obligatory thread on people wanting to try random fent analogues.
I don't even think the main point is about being able to understand the chemistry but perhaps more about understanding the carelessness of random vendors you could consider untraceable. Think of how many people there are online and how many just want to make a profit even if people die. Are you just happy to apply for these guys' lotteries and eat whatever shit they call a prize?
All I'm doing is trying to convey what I have learned myself throught disgrace and from knowing plenty of chemistry overall (idc if patronizing): it doesn't really matter how interesting the promises are if you are not able to understand the risks.
And let me break down risks in unknowns and unknown unknowns (aka black swans). Some matters we technically understand but don't have enough data on, and other matters we weren't even considering! And those surpsises are black swans.
Of course we are limited in how we can anticipate true surprises and black swans, but what we can do is be truthful to ourselves on what can be known (what others seem to know or understand even!) but we ourselves do not.
The paradox is: it can be a surprise to us as we learn, how much we still do not... And all I hope for is that people don't just take utterly random compounds as a rule, even if just because they realize they would be overextending so much that they are just sure to be not just a pioneer but also just ignorant.
The funny thing about some of the warning symbols is their history and how they tried to think of universally abstract symbols that appeal to us psychologically like the biohazard sign... ones that are meant to be meaningful even if some post-apocalyptic cult were to take over for one or two thousand years.
And yea i retract that part about Palladium, I guess it's alright in the end. And sorry about your nadgers Limp.
I really don't know or possibly care about what vendors meant when they offered some nitrostyrene like the 2,5-dimethoxy-4-bromo type.. they just did.
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Limpet_Chicken
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I couldn't agree more Solipsis. It isn't patronizing at all, to say that if someone doesn't know what they are doing, in an area where one must know, if one is to be as safe as possible, that if they cannot, or are unwilling to look for, and digest such knowledge, then they for their own safety, ought not to trust to those who quite simply, are out to make as fast a buck as possible.
As for Pd...not like I, or IT, can take offense, lol. Last time I checked, my PdCl2 was sat there in a cupboard, waiting to be used to prepare a catalyst, not ranting and raving, looking you up on google and looking for the bottle of ICl, bromine, or trying to get hold of the white phosphorus
And YOU are sorry about my nuts? not half as sorry as my bollocks were at the time. NOBODY will ever be THAT sorry, until they've actually experienced it.
Although I admit, that wasn't the worst of the two similar types of incident, throughout my life. Many years ago, same sort of thing, only it was KMnO4. Jesus christ....fucking bloody bastarding hell, that felt like I'd just dipped my danglies in molten NaOH/KOH eutectic electrolyte mixture, WITH some NaK present on the top for good measure. And it KEPT burning for at least a WEEK. Turned 'em severely-burnt-toast brown and made the poor buggers feel like they had their scrotum replaced with a magnetic field and the output of several industrial plasma torches to form a 'bag' of superheated plasma in lieu of tender bollock-bag tissue.
(I really don't recommend getting pot perm down there)
As for what the vendors meant, by offering the nitroalkenes, I should have thought it obvious. Especially given it was a nitrostyrene not a nitropropene, being far easier to reduce than the latter.
Something like 5-6 fold excess sodium borohydride (the excess is to prevent a parasitic Michael addition between nitroalkene precursor and nitroalkane intermediate) to the nitroalkane, then Fe/acid/FeCl3 to reduce the nitro group to the amine, or borohydride>nitroalkane>more borohydride+CuCl2 in isopropanol to generate what has been posited to be nanoparticle copper, but which I'm of the opinion, based on experience preparing other metal borides, such as nickel boride, the routes are so damn close, that it pretty much has to be a copper boride binary compound, probably something with a stoichiometry of Cu2B.
Reduction, in-situ of divalent transition metal salts with borohydride is a pretty common way to generate various other metal borides. So thats where my money is bet on.
Either way, it is known to work.
So what they mean is people buy the nitrostyrene, they supply 2C-B precursor without breaking the law, and they rely on the consumer to perform the reduction.
Not too different to when GBL>GHB kits were sold back in the day. Main difference being one COULD consume GBL and have it convert to GHB in-vivo, albeit needing to plug it if you had a nose capable of detecting hideous stenches right up close and without, even if it stung, it actually physically tearing one's insides to pieces.
Company sells precursor, gets away with it, gets rich, clientele reduce precursor, get 2C-B, hopefully get away with it.
But you are damn right, with the 'not for human consumption' 'warning-toxic' etc. labels on EVERYTHING RC-esque, it lulls people into a false sense of security if they have not the knowledge of chemistry and toxicology to realize that out of each and every product labeled as poison, this one, actually IS poison and NOT psychoactive, just toxic and irritant/lachrymatory. Then what are people to think but 'oh, right, more legalese boilerplate bollocks,fuck the pigs*, etc. etc., lets cut a line'
[*that much I agree with]
But if one labels the entire world 'danger' then nobody will know real danger when they bump into it; label little fwuffy baby kittens as deadly and vicious, then what's some poor bastard to do when he's confronted by a really, really pissed off tiger snake, mamba, carpet viper or fat-tailed scorpion (by this I mean Androctonus, rather than Parabuthus, the latter are toxic, pretty heavyweight Buthids, and able in some species at least, to fire their venom, cobra-style, although not with the deadly accuracy allowed by the more developed eyes of a snake, compared to the eye structure of an arachnid or other arthropod) or something like Hemiscorpius lepturus (nasty wee beggar, scorpion with horrendously potent, highly lethal cytotoxic and haemotoxic venom. Doesn't look like much, but IIRC, in the regions around iran and areas of the middle east where scorpion envenomation is prevalent, it's responsible for something like 85-90% of fatalities. When the other main native scorpion capable of serious envenomation, is Androctonus crassicauda (!), basically flays people alive, buggers up blood clotting and rots flesh.
One's going to think, if brought up on a diet of such warnings as would be appropriate for such critters being mandatory for wee little kittens and baby pet mice, 'oh, more crap, there they go again, wrapping everything in cotton wool'
Problem with wrapping people up in cotton wool, is that cotton wool is flammable, and soaks up petrol pretty well too..
I've noticed on that big main auction site, beginning with 'e'; vendors offering 100g (or larger still) packages of unsubstituted P2NP, along with a container with an appropriate 'serving' of mercuric chloride (HgCl2) for an Al/Hg reduction.
Obviously I'd go nowhere near such a vendor myself, waaaay too hot, in a piggy-stinking kind of way. No wish to buy from a seller who's got trotters in lieu of feet, and besides, more than capable of making P2NP or P2P both (or P2P from P2NP), and I don't like the Al/Hg either (it's mutual, I hate it, it hates me, we avoid one another and it works out better for both that way)
Seems like precursor 'packs' intended for people to roll their own are either more common than we thought, or becoming so.
But they ought at least, in sites that don't stock ONLY precursors and assorted supplies for making use of them, to include a notice along the lines of 'warning-hazardous, this means ACTUALLY hazardous, not generic legalistic boilerplate dogshit, this actually ISN'T for human consumption'
And maybe 'if you don't know you need to reduce me, then fuck off and do not buy me'
As for Pd...not like I, or IT, can take offense, lol. Last time I checked, my PdCl2 was sat there in a cupboard, waiting to be used to prepare a catalyst, not ranting and raving, looking you up on google and looking for the bottle of ICl, bromine, or trying to get hold of the white phosphorus
And YOU are sorry about my nuts? not half as sorry as my bollocks were at the time. NOBODY will ever be THAT sorry, until they've actually experienced it.
Although I admit, that wasn't the worst of the two similar types of incident, throughout my life. Many years ago, same sort of thing, only it was KMnO4. Jesus christ....fucking bloody bastarding hell, that felt like I'd just dipped my danglies in molten NaOH/KOH eutectic electrolyte mixture, WITH some NaK present on the top for good measure. And it KEPT burning for at least a WEEK. Turned 'em severely-burnt-toast brown and made the poor buggers feel like they had their scrotum replaced with a magnetic field and the output of several industrial plasma torches to form a 'bag' of superheated plasma in lieu of tender bollock-bag tissue.
(I really don't recommend getting pot perm down there)
As for what the vendors meant, by offering the nitroalkenes, I should have thought it obvious. Especially given it was a nitrostyrene not a nitropropene, being far easier to reduce than the latter.
Something like 5-6 fold excess sodium borohydride (the excess is to prevent a parasitic Michael addition between nitroalkene precursor and nitroalkane intermediate) to the nitroalkane, then Fe/acid/FeCl3 to reduce the nitro group to the amine, or borohydride>nitroalkane>more borohydride+CuCl2 in isopropanol to generate what has been posited to be nanoparticle copper, but which I'm of the opinion, based on experience preparing other metal borides, such as nickel boride, the routes are so damn close, that it pretty much has to be a copper boride binary compound, probably something with a stoichiometry of Cu2B.
Reduction, in-situ of divalent transition metal salts with borohydride is a pretty common way to generate various other metal borides. So thats where my money is bet on.
Either way, it is known to work.
So what they mean is people buy the nitrostyrene, they supply 2C-B precursor without breaking the law, and they rely on the consumer to perform the reduction.
Not too different to when GBL>GHB kits were sold back in the day. Main difference being one COULD consume GBL and have it convert to GHB in-vivo, albeit needing to plug it if you had a nose capable of detecting hideous stenches right up close and without, even if it stung, it actually physically tearing one's insides to pieces.
Company sells precursor, gets away with it, gets rich, clientele reduce precursor, get 2C-B, hopefully get away with it.
But you are damn right, with the 'not for human consumption' 'warning-toxic' etc. labels on EVERYTHING RC-esque, it lulls people into a false sense of security if they have not the knowledge of chemistry and toxicology to realize that out of each and every product labeled as poison, this one, actually IS poison and NOT psychoactive, just toxic and irritant/lachrymatory. Then what are people to think but 'oh, right, more legalese boilerplate bollocks,fuck the pigs*, etc. etc., lets cut a line'
[*that much I agree with
]But if one labels the entire world 'danger' then nobody will know real danger when they bump into it; label little fwuffy baby kittens as deadly and vicious, then what's some poor bastard to do when he's confronted by a really, really pissed off tiger snake, mamba, carpet viper or fat-tailed scorpion (by this I mean Androctonus, rather than Parabuthus, the latter are toxic, pretty heavyweight Buthids, and able in some species at least, to fire their venom, cobra-style, although not with the deadly accuracy allowed by the more developed eyes of a snake, compared to the eye structure of an arachnid or other arthropod) or something like Hemiscorpius lepturus (nasty wee beggar, scorpion with horrendously potent, highly lethal cytotoxic and haemotoxic venom. Doesn't look like much, but IIRC, in the regions around iran and areas of the middle east where scorpion envenomation is prevalent, it's responsible for something like 85-90% of fatalities. When the other main native scorpion capable of serious envenomation, is Androctonus crassicauda (!), basically flays people alive, buggers up blood clotting and rots flesh.
One's going to think, if brought up on a diet of such warnings as would be appropriate for such critters being mandatory for wee little kittens and baby pet mice, 'oh, more crap, there they go again, wrapping everything in cotton wool'
Problem with wrapping people up in cotton wool, is that cotton wool is flammable, and soaks up petrol pretty well too..
I've noticed on that big main auction site, beginning with 'e'; vendors offering 100g (or larger still) packages of unsubstituted P2NP, along with a container with an appropriate 'serving' of mercuric chloride (HgCl2) for an Al/Hg reduction.
Obviously I'd go nowhere near such a vendor myself, waaaay too hot, in a piggy-stinking kind of way. No wish to buy from a seller who's got trotters in lieu of feet, and besides, more than capable of making P2NP or P2P both (or P2P from P2NP), and I don't like the Al/Hg either (it's mutual, I hate it, it hates me, we avoid one another and it works out better for both that way)
Seems like precursor 'packs' intended for people to roll their own are either more common than we thought, or becoming so.
But they ought at least, in sites that don't stock ONLY precursors and assorted supplies for making use of them, to include a notice along the lines of 'warning-hazardous, this means ACTUALLY hazardous, not generic legalistic boilerplate dogshit, this actually ISN'T for human consumption'
And maybe 'if you don't know you need to reduce me, then fuck off and do not buy me'