Bluelight

Thread: Breaking out of the Up/Down cycle (Klonopin and Caffeine)

Results 1 to 17 of 17
  1. Collapse Details
    Breaking out of the Up/Down cycle (Klonopin and Caffeine) 
    #1
    So I use several substances, and while I am probably REMOTELY healthy to an extent (I think I'm not so healthy right now really, but relatively speaking) I feel like complete shit about 40% of the time, KIND OF like shit about another 40%, and just "ok" probably the other 15% of the time, with the times I actually feel above average being relegated to when I'm on Kratom, but I don't take Kratom more than 3 days a week spaced out so as not to become dependent.

    I know that the two drugs which combine to make me feel like shit are my prescribed Klonopin and my insanely ridiculous caffeine habit which SHOULD be easy to overcome, but is not. When I fall asleep I can't wake up for like 9 hours on a GOOD day but generally I feel I need to sleep 11-12 hours to feel even REMOTELY rested and I am still usually tired as hell when I wake up, and I can only attribute this to the Klonopin (well not ONLY, but mainly, there are other factors too.)

    I'm also prescribed Adderall and Lexapro.

    To a large extent I need Klonopin, but I know I don't need nearly as much as I take (3mgs a day is my prescribed amount but I try to take less) because if i don't take it I get really bad social anxiety which is even WORSE than the fatigue caused by the Klonopin.

    I also have this bizarre problem where I chug coffee and have a REALLY hard time drinking anything less than 5 cups a day, yet I react REALLY badly to it because of my anxiety and it makes me super anxious and then I need more klonopin, but then the Klonopin makes me tired and so I drink more coffee, then when bedtime comes I can't sleep so I take more Klonopin to knock me out, coffee to wake up, and the cycle continues.

    Since my new job is at night, and it's a very good but anxiety producing teaching position, I have the *luxury* of having no real sleep schedule, which fucks me up more, and my body and brain never know if it's night or day and I have a hard time forcing myself to stick to a schedule of when I go to bed and wake up.

    I would say that the Klonopin is what constantly has me tired and makes quitting caffeine MUCH more difficult (which believe me IS a necessity for me, at least to get down to like 2 cups a day which should be low enough IMO).

    Coffee really wrecks me too: the crash, the anxiety, the decreased sleep quality, the fucking sweating and gas, it just fucks me up and the only times I have been able to quit were ironically by using Adderall/Dexadrine for about 10 days straight, then stopping both that AND the caffeine, and exercising religiously, and my need for Klonopin DRAMATICALLy decreased and I felt normal!!!

    This is what I want to do again (I do have an Adderall prescription), but I can't quit cold turkey because I have too much work to do to manage without caffeine cause even with Adderall I get EXHAUSTED and SUPER depressed when in caffeine WD.

    I also REALLY want to cut down on Klonopin, but when I got off it for 9 months 4 years ago even though I felt SOOOO much better in terms of energy, my social anxiety came back and I couldn't deal and had no choice but to start taking it again, but if I'd managed to quit coffee at the same time maybe I could have stayed off it due to the anxiety the caffeine produces...

    What I DESPERATELY want to do is get to the point where I am not dependent on caffeine and only drink a little at most, and have DRAMATICALLY cut down on Klonopin, and I know I'll feel better, but I don't know how to do this.

    A big problem is I am afraid if I ask my doctor for advice on how to cut down on Klonopin that he will prescribe me less or cut me off, and while I doubt he'd cut me off entirely cause he's really cool and casual about prescribing, I don't want to be prescribed less cause I want to build up a stash cause I am afraid of running out and this doctor is SUPER flaky about getting me my meds on time and is always like a week late on my Klonopin and makes me worried about it.


    What do you guys suggest I do??

    Should I try to cut down on coffee first or Klonopin first or at the same time?

    If I cut down on the Klonopin do you think I'll want less caffeine? Cause if I cant' cut down on caffeine then that will continue to make me anxious and want more Klonopin...

    Should I tell my psychiatrist I want help cutting down on Klonopin but that I still want the same prescription for the same amount?

    If i tell him that, do you think he will prescribe me less if I tell him I SORT of want to taper but not really?? (Not a REAL taper mind you, just me basically asking "how little an amount can I take on certain days and still be in the safe zone for not having a seizure so I can cut down and be less tired?"

    The fucked up thing is, when I don't drink coffee I don't need a whole lot of Klonopin, so my focus is usually on quitting that first, especially cause I don't have to talk to the psychiatrist then, and if I had like 10 days off (it really does take that long for me, sometimes more...) Id use my Adderall to quit caffeine cold turkey, but I don't have that time off.

    These two substances (and I personally believe FOR ME caffeine is actually a bad drug) have me locked in a battle of tiredness and shitty sleep and crashing and anxiety constantly that I have not been able to break out of for years.

    Any advice would be appreciated.

    Thanks
     

  2. Collapse Details
     
    #2
    I know this is long, but could someone please read it and respond?

    Is my only choice to talk to my psychiatrist and explain to him that I don't want to stop taking Klonopin but i want to know how I can safely cut down?

    And do you think if I tell him that that he will cut me off or prescribe me less?

    Or if you were me would you instead try to reduce the caffeine which is clearly making me want to take Klonopin cause it worsens my anxiety?

    Thanks
     

  3. Collapse Details
     
    #3
    Moderator
    Mental Health

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    on planet earth
    Posts
    7,371
    First I would recommend not trying to accrue a "stash". That's the sort of illegal thing that if found can get you in real trouble.

    Your choice should always involve keeping you psychiatrist in the loop. No one can make that guess. Sounds like you really do want to decrease caffeine, so bust out of yourself and just do it, if you think it would help.

    It seems bizarre to me, honestly, that you're on both a legit upper and a legit downer and you can't reduce both. Adderall has a harsh edge to it, and makes people moreish for minor quirks (like nicotine/caffeine).

    From reading, you're saying that you can stop caffeine if you also stop adderall? it sounds like you should take a day, or ideally several days, off of both adderall and caffeine in order to see what's doing what in your body, to see if the klonopin is actually needed. If you're in school or have a hectic job, take a day off maybe.

    You literally say that you felt great after a break from caffeine and adderall, sounds like you were in a great mood, counter to what you're stating otherwise.

    If I were you, I'd really take that break and also drink some green tea for a few of your otherwise cups of coffee.

    Other than that, I'd just repeat in stating that if you're serious about your health then you wouldn't be concerned with accruing a bunch of extra klonopin. If you trust your psychiatrist, then tell them the issue. They know better than us. That said, I was in the upper-downer cycle before. It really does best to keep doses low. It catches up to you, and sounds like it kind of has.
     

  4. Collapse Details
     
    #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Ho-Chi-Minh View Post
    First I would recommend not trying to accrue a "stash". That's the sort of illegal thing that if found can get you in real trouble.

    Your choice should always involve keeping you psychiatrist in the loop. No one can make that guess. Sounds like you really do want to decrease caffeine, so bust out of yourself and just do it, if you think it would help.

    It seems bizarre to me, honestly, that you're on both a legit upper and a legit downer and you can't reduce both. Adderall has a harsh edge to it, and makes people moreish for minor quirks (like nicotine/caffeine).

    From reading, you're saying that you can stop caffeine if you also stop adderall? it sounds like you should take a day, or ideally several days, off of both adderall and caffeine in order to see what's doing what in your body, to see if the klonopin is actually needed. If you're in school or have a hectic job, take a day off maybe.

    You literally say that you felt great after a break from caffeine and adderall, sounds like you were in a great mood, counter to what you're stating otherwise.

    If I were you, I'd really take that break and also drink some green tea for a few of your otherwise cups of coffee.

    Other than that, I'd just repeat in stating that if you're serious about your health then you wouldn't be concerned with accruing a bunch of extra klonopin. If you trust your psychiatrist, then tell them the issue. They know better than us. That said, I was in the upper-downer cycle before. It really does best to keep doses low. It catches up to you, and sounds like it kind of has.
    Well as far as accruing "a stash", I already have one, and there's nothing illegal about it because I just do it by saving extra pills I was legitimately prescribed for my anxiety by not using them all every month and I see no way I could get in trouble for that, and I'll continue to do so out of fear of losing access to a med that's helped my anxiety so much.

    So I'm serious about my health, getting my old energy levels back AND not having the extreme anxiety that I have when I have tried to quit Klonopin.

    Wanting not to be prescribed less Klonopin and to always have enough for my anxiety should not be mutually exclusive from wanting good health and higher energy levels, as I do not take Klonopin recreationally.

    You misunderstood my point about the Adderall: I don't use it much, but the only time I have been able to quit caffeine was by taking like two weeks off (because it honestly takes that long for me to quit coffee), then using the Adderall instead of Caffeine for those 2 weeks so I wasn't miserable, THEN stopping the Adderall also so I'm not dependent on that, and at that point I was no longer nearly so anxious from the caffeine and needed not nearly so much Klonopin and my energy levels came back as well as lowered anxiety because I was exercising a lot.

    But I cannot do that now as I just started a pretty serious teaching career that has me working regularly and I cannot function without at least like 5 cups a day, if not more, and that just makes it so I can't really cut down on Klonopin, cause the caffeine makes me anxious and then I need more Klonopin and also more Klonopin to fall asleep.

    My energy levels and also OCD in relation to number of cups are I drink is such that for whatever odd reason, I feel slowly reducing caffeine to be nearly impossible, and the only way I am ever able to stop is cold turkey with like 2 weeks off and using Adderall instead. Odd I know, but its worked before, but I can't get 2 weeks off work.

    It's not really fair to say I shouldn't want Klonopin, and I'm thinking if I talk to my doctor he would probably NOT reduce my dosage if I explained to him that I just want to know how to take less on certain days and how low an amount is safe to take without having a seizure so I can both get my old energy levels back and not have too much anxiety.

    I totally can reduce the Adderall, that's only been prescribed to me for a short while so you misread that.

    So yeah, do you think if I tell my psychiatrist I want to know how to cut down on the Klonopin without having a seizure but don't want him to reduce my monthly prescription that he'll start prescribing me less, or do you think it's possible he might be agreeable to keeping my prescription the same so I have access to more if necessary, but still teaching me how to safely reduce my dosages?
     

  5. Collapse Details
     
    #5
    Moderator
    Mental Health

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    on planet earth
    Posts
    7,371
    You'll get better feedback if you're more amiable.

    Your risk friend. It does depend on the number. A few extra shouldn't be bad, but when I read "stash" it doesn't sound like saving a couple in case you run out of prescription, taken as prescribed.

    It doesn't matter if you take it recreationally or not, because it's always going to slow you down, if just by reducing anxiety. But you should consider this upper-downer cycle, or at least I would. That seems to be responsible for your issues, as I understand.

    Even if you weren't on amphetamine, five cups of coffee is above most projections of health. With adderall, what you're having grievances about doesn't surprise me.

    If I said you shouldn't want klonopin categorically, then I'd retract that. Don't think I said that, though.

    That's out of our purview. We can't tell you how to manipulate your psychiatrist.

    I'm not going to say anything more. I'm sensing a lot of adversarial meaning in your words.
     

  6. Collapse Details
     
    #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Ho-Chi-Minh View Post
    You'll get better feedback if you're more amiable.

    Your risk friend. It does depend on the number. A few extra shouldn't be bad, but when I read "stash" it doesn't sound like saving a couple in case you run out of prescription, taken as prescribed.

    It doesn't matter if you take it recreationally or not, because it's always going to slow you down, if just by reducing anxiety. But you should consider this upper-downer cycle, or at least I would. That seems to be responsible for your issues, as I understand.

    Even if you weren't on amphetamine, five cups of coffee is above most projections of health. With adderall, what you're having grievances about doesn't surprise me.

    If I said you shouldn't want klonopin categorically, then I'd retract that. Don't think I said that, though.

    That's out of our purview. We can't tell you how to manipulate your psychiatrist.

    I'm not going to say anything more. I'm sensing a lot of adversarial meaning in your words.
    Sorry if it seemed that way as I didn't mean it that way.

    I guess I don't see anything wrong with saving pills for my anxiety no matter how many as they are prescribed legally, so that bugged me (plus, who would find them or care?), and I haven't been in a good mood for a number of reasons lately so I apologize.

    I actually don't think my psychiatrist would actually have issues explaining to me how to cut down without prescribing me less, nor do I think I'd be manipulating him to say "so, I would like to know how to safely cut down on Klonopin", but then explaining that I do not want my monthly prescription reduced because I have a fear of running out because of my anxiety (not to mention the guy NEVER fills my prescription on time so I have reason to be wary...)

    It's a pet peeve of mine that doctors/psychiatrists feel the need to (and that the law forces them to) keep such a tight leash on patients and how many pills they are prescribed when it comes to scheduled substances. I don't believe it should be anyone's right to deny another a medication, Dr. or not.

    But when I bring up this conversation with most people it usually does turn out badly for some reason, probably due to my OCD and yes, somewhat aggressive personal tendencies to some extent, though I never mean ill.

    Interesting that you say there's an issue with drinking 5 cups of coffee though, since while I know that it's true that's more than the recommended daily amount that there are many very healthy people who drink more than that.

    Anyways, yeah, I'll seek advice elsewhere, of if someone else wants to answer they can.

    Thanks
     

  7. Collapse Details
     
    #7
    Bluelighter Vastness's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    West
    Posts
    798
    Mycophile, I really don't see that you are doing anything wrong by accruing pills, whether that be a "stash" or not, and I'm genuinely surprised to see that anyone would think so.

    We all know how dangerous it can be to run out of benzos so as far as I see it having a backup stash is a necessary safety net. Equally, we all know the dangers of becoming too dependent on benzos, so you are doing the right thing by trying to take less, even if, perhaps, not so successfully at the moment. The legality of it is another question (although I would be very surprised if there was anything wrong with this) but as we should all know also, Bluelight is not the place for discussion of legal matters.

    Unfortunately I don't have much advice for your specific situation other than that because I don't have much experience with these substances, with the exception of caffeine. However as I see it, you're going to feel uncomfortable for a while and there is just no way around that. You have 2 options really and I know which one I would prefer - either cut down or quit the stimulants first and suffer with very low energy levels, probably demotivation, depression, etc... OR cut down the anxiolytic sedative first and maintain your energy levels while your anxiety goes through the roof.

    Again I know which one I would choose! Since you mention excessive fatigue and the need to sleep for 11-12 hours, I would suggest switching from Adderall which is habit forming, lends itself to development of rapid tolerance, and has non-negligible physiological side effects which aren't going to be helped by your caffeine intake, to Modafinil, or Armodafinil. Honestly I just don't know too much about the American (I presume you to be American?) healthcare system and how OK doctors are with you actually suggesting medications to them, but Modafinil/Armodafinil are narcolepsy medications which promote wakefulness and in my own experience are stimulating but with a lot slower tolerance curve and without many of the physical side effects of traditional stimulants. If you can get rid of your adderall prescription and ideally your adderall as well, then try to just not drink caffeine at all or just drink 1-2 cups MAX. I know you said you feel like you can't reduce your intake, but unless you plan to quit caffeine FOREVER it seems likely you're just going to end up repeating the same old patterns, quit cold turkey, feel terrible for a week, go back to work, quickly ramp up your caffeine intake again. Obviously this is not sustainable so you need to decide whether you're going to cut it out forever or find a way to make yourself OK with 1-2 cups maximum. The fact that other people drink 5 cups plus and are OK is irrelevant - they probably aren't on all the meds that you are on, and anyway plenty of people do things that are bad for them as long as they can get away with it.

    I would suggest also that during your 2 weeks off it was not advisable to use adderall instead of caffeine unless you were actually suicidal. You are trying to reduce your dependence on multiple susbtances - miserableness is just a given, and by substituting one stimulant for another you probably didn't do anything to allow your brain to work out how NOT to be on a stimulant during your time off.

    Anyway, so, fast foward, you're off adderall and caffeine (mostly), and using Armodafinil instead. Now you need to tackle the Klonopin problem. Klonopin (Clonazepam) is very long acting and is probably contributing to your fatigue and general feelings of badness, but obviously you can't just stop and probably another class of drugs is not going to be a substitute. I would honestly try to get off Klonopin and onto Valium - Valium/Diazepam is generally the recommended benzo to be on to start tapering and for good reason, it's just a very forgiving substance. Just in my own anecdotal experience the incidence of unwanted side effects using Valium is definitely lower, and, without looking up any research, I wouldn't be surprised if this was reflected in the data. Then just try to taper down. While you're doing this, and hopefully by now your energy levels will be recovering somewhat, start exercising. Just go for a run every morning or every other morning (or at a time of day that is convenient), or if you feel up to it, go the gym a few times a week and lift some weights. Try to make a schedule. Exercise as you already know will do wonders for your anxiety and in my view is just a necessity in your efforts to feel better.

    So the net outcome here is that you may still be somewhat dependent on some things to get you through the day, but on LESS substances and ones that are a lot more forgiving in terms of tolerance/dependence/other side effects. You can then go from there in making better decisions to take the final steps to being dependent on nothing (if you choose to do so, it may be you decide that this is not even worth doing at this point in your life).

    Just to state the obvious - I am not a doctor and am thus not qualified to offer any real medical advice, this post is just my personal opinion on what I think I would do in your situation.

    Good luck!
     

  8. Collapse Details
     
    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastness View Post
    Mycophile, I really don't see that you are doing anything wrong by accruing pills, whether that be a "stash" or not, and I'm genuinely surprised to see that anyone would think so.

    We all know how dangerous it can be to run out of benzos so as far as I see it having a backup stash is a necessary safety net. Equally, we all know the dangers of becoming too dependent on benzos, so you are doing the right thing by trying to take less, even if, perhaps, not so successfully at the moment. The legality of it is another question (although I would be very surprised if there was anything wrong with this) but as we should all know also, Bluelight is not the place for discussion of legal matters.

    Unfortunately I don't have much advice for your specific situation other than that because I don't have much experience with these substances, with the exception of caffeine. However as I see it, you're going to feel uncomfortable for a while and there is just no way around that. You have 2 options really and I know which one I would prefer - either cut down or quit the stimulants first and suffer with very low energy levels, probably demotivation, depression, etc... OR cut down the anxiolytic sedative first and maintain your energy levels while your anxiety goes through the roof.

    Again I know which one I would choose! Since you mention excessive fatigue and the need to sleep for 11-12 hours, I would suggest switching from Adderall which is habit forming, lends itself to development of rapid tolerance, and has non-negligible physiological side effects which aren't going to be helped by your caffeine intake, to Modafinil, or Armodafinil. Honestly I just don't know too much about the American (I presume you to be American?) healthcare system and how OK doctors are with you actually suggesting medications to them, but Modafinil/Armodafinil are narcolepsy medications which promote wakefulness and in my own experience are stimulating but with a lot slower tolerance curve and without many of the physical side effects of traditional stimulants. If you can get rid of your adderall prescription and ideally your adderall as well, then try to just not drink caffeine at all or just drink 1-2 cups MAX. I know you said you feel like you can't reduce your intake, but unless you plan to quit caffeine FOREVER it seems likely you're just going to end up repeating the same old patterns, quit cold turkey, feel terrible for a week, go back to work, quickly ramp up your caffeine intake again. Obviously this is not sustainable so you need to decide whether you're going to cut it out forever or find a way to make yourself OK with 1-2 cups maximum. The fact that other people drink 5 cups plus and are OK is irrelevant - they probably aren't on all the meds that you are on, and anyway plenty of people do things that are bad for them as long as they can get away with it.

    I would suggest also that during your 2 weeks off it was not advisable to use adderall instead of caffeine unless you were actually suicidal. You are trying to reduce your dependence on multiple susbtances - miserableness is just a given, and by substituting one stimulant for another you probably didn't do anything to allow your brain to work out how NOT to be on a stimulant during your time off.

    Anyway, so, fast foward, you're off adderall and caffeine (mostly), and using Armodafinil instead. Now you need to tackle the Klonopin problem. Klonopin (Clonazepam) is very long acting and is probably contributing to your fatigue and general feelings of badness, but obviously you can't just stop and probably another class of drugs is not going to be a substitute. I would honestly try to get off Klonopin and onto Valium - Valium/Diazepam is generally the recommended benzo to be on to start tapering and for good reason, it's just a very forgiving substance. Just in my own anecdotal experience the incidence of unwanted side effects using Valium is definitely lower, and, without looking up any research, I wouldn't be surprised if this was reflected in the data. Then just try to taper down. While you're doing this, and hopefully by now your energy levels will be recovering somewhat, start exercising. Just go for a run every morning or every other morning (or at a time of day that is convenient), or if you feel up to it, go the gym a few times a week and lift some weights. Try to make a schedule. Exercise as you already know will do wonders for your anxiety and in my view is just a necessity in your efforts to feel better.

    So the net outcome here is that you may still be somewhat dependent on some things to get you through the day, but on LESS substances and ones that are a lot more forgiving in terms of tolerance/dependence/other side effects. You can then go from there in making better decisions to take the final steps to being dependent on nothing (if you choose to do so, it may be you decide that this is not even worth doing at this point in your life).

    Just to state the obvious - I am not a doctor and am thus not qualified to offer any real medical advice, this post is just my personal opinion on what I think I would do in your situation.

    Good luck!
    Thanks so much man for the well thought out response!

    That was a lot more advice than most people give me on this. And yeah, no offense to Ho Chi Minh, but I think it's pretty ridiculous to tell me that it's wrong to try to build up a large supply of an anti-anixety medication that I'm very dependent on both physically and psychologically, or to suggest that there's any likelihood I would ever be caught by police with it (not to mention I'm not even sure you can get in any trouble for having extra of a medication you always had legally. If asked I'd be like "yeah officer, I was prescribed it for years and always did my best to take the lowest effective dose which is what doctors always suggest, and over the course of years I ended up have a lot of extras" LOL. I mean when would a cop even see that anyways?

    Anyway, why exactly did you say it was a bad idea to use Adderall for those 2 weeks to break my caffeine dependency and say I shouldn't do it unless I'm suicidal?

    I mean it's actually worked very well for me several times, and I know I could pull it off right now if I just had like 10-14 days off work, but I used to have limited access to it while now I have a better prescription, so I just need that time off, and eventually I'll get it, it just might not be till winter break.

    Well, I'm considering the things you are saying, but I'm certainly keeping my Adderall prescription, I mean in so far as picking it up, and I've bothered my doctor enough lately and he's very hard to get ahold of, so I really can't ask him for anything else now, even though I think he'd say yes to Modafinil or Armodafonil.

    However, I CAN get Adrafanil online, which you probably know is the pro-drug form that turns into Modafinil in the body. What do you think of using that to replace the caffeine?

    I tried it like a year ago, but I didn't really like the way it made me feel, and I don't know if it would work. I mean I've considered giving it another shot and I think maybe I might order some to try it again, but the one time I tried it it seemed to wake me up even LESS than coffee, but yet to sort of have this feeling of Peripheral Nervous System Stimulation almost kind of like if I were to use my asthma inhaler too much: just kind of sped up heart rate but not a real feeling of wakefulness, and I felt like it didn't agree with me and had thrown it out, though now I wished I saved it.

    Also, I do know that Adrafanil can tax the liver a bit, but used in moderation shouldn't be too bad.

    Do you think that Adrafanil is as effective as Modafanil and Armodafonil?

    So wait, are you saying you would choose to cut down on stimulants first and THEN the Klonopin, or Klonopin first and then stimulants?

    I think you meant you'd cut down on caffeine and stimulants first right?

    I agree, that works better in my opinion as if I'm racy from stimulants cutting down on Klonopin is harder.

    But I really can't switch to another benzo like Valium now.

    I just pretty much can't ask much more of my psychiatrist since he's so unavailable. I mean I respond better to Dexadrine than Adderall or Vyvanse so I just texted him to ask for that and he's yet to get back to me, but he'll probably prescribe it, but I can't THEN be like "can I also have Modafanil and switch from Klonopin to Valium?"

    I also don't really want to swtich from Klonopin to another benzo, though I can understand your logic on that as far as switching to a weaker one.

    So one piece of advice I think I WILL take from you is probably to order some Adrafanil if you think that might work as well as Modafanil or Armodafonil, as soon as I have the cash, and then once I have it I can give it another shot, and maybe certain days use that instead of caffeine, or at least AS MUCH caffeine, then others Adderall or Vyvanse or Dex instead off coffee or as much coffee (yeah I know, people would say I'm crazy using a STRONGER stimulant instead of caffeine, but believe it or not it has worked multiple times in my life.)

    But I'm really considering what you are saying about trying Adrafanil again (again, that's IF you think it's as good as Modafanil/Armodafonil, but it's the only one that doesn't require a prescription, and really it SHOULD be just as good as Modafanil since it turns into it in the body) as an extra aid.

    I may have judged it too quickly last time around and not given it a proper chance, and since I already have access to stronger stimulants it could b a good aid to have one hand.

    See, the thing is, is that actually my crazy caffeine dependence is really MUCH more psychological than physical. I have pretty bad Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, and caffeine makes it worse, yet I have many weird habits and compulsions and one of them is thinking that I have to drink a certain number of cups of coffee a day when in reality, I don't think my body actually believes it needs that much.

    Like, I got stuck on the number of 8 1/2 cups years ago (yeah, that's A LOT of caffeine in a day) just cause one day I drank that much 15 years ago and remembered it being the most I'd ever had in a day, and suddenly for some bizarre reason I then convinced myself I needed that much everyday!!

    (I Don't ALWAYS have that much, but I rarely have less than 5 a day).

    But then one day about 4 years ago when I was staying with my parents I accidentally drank decaf for about 5 days, and while I WAS drinking about 2 1/2 cups of real coffee a day cause I was driving around a lot doing stuff and would stop at this one gas station to buy some, the majority of my intake was decaf without knowing it, and the placebo effect was STRONG!! I remember thinking that I felt a bit more tired and sluggish than usual while out doing things but didn't think much of it, and when I realized I'd been drinking decaf it blew my mind!!

    So yeah, the mental part is big. Also, I have the worst sleep habits known to man. Since I work in the evenings, I have the days off, so I can stay up as late as I want at night and sleep into the afternoon, and I basically never know what time I'm going to bed or waking up and go to bed and wake up different times like everyday, so my body is in constant social jet lag as if I was basically flying around the world all week, never having a good internal clock.

    When I have actually had a real reason to get on a good sleep schedule I've been AMAZED to see how much better I felt just waking up the same time everyday and going to bed the same time every night, and I KNOW if I do that plus exercise a lot that it will be MUCH easier to cut down on coffee so I think we'd both agree that stable sleeping and waking times and exercise is ESSENTIAL to the plan.

    I don't know, I'm considering your different tips. So yeah, I am definitely going to pick up so Adrafanil as soon as I can but be careful about not taking way too much as it can be hard on the liver, and experiment with seeing on certain days if taking that can allow me to more easily not drink as many cups of coffee, and that, combined with better sleep habits and exercise will be part of the plan, but switching from Klonopin to Valium won't cause I just don't feel right about that at the moment.

    But that's the other thing, is that my dependence on my Klonopin intake, like my caffeine intake, is VERY psychological.

    Like, I am prescribed 3mgs a day, but the truth is that the less coffee I drink the less I need for anxiety, and honestly, 1.5mgs MAX is all I need for my anxiety, and what I end up doing it using the other 1.5 to help me fall asleep cause I drank too much coffee!!!

    If I can just in ANY WAY POSSIBLE reduce my caffeine it will be easier to totally cut down my daily Klonopin intake by 50%, then I'll be less tired and need less coffee, etc.


    So, yeah...I am thinking of combining your ideas with mine. I actually DON'T think it's the worst thing in the world IF I have 2 weeks off to quit coffee cold turkey and replace it with Adderall during those two weeks (IF Adrafanil wasn't enough) and THEN COMPLETELY stopping the Adderall so as not to be dependent, cause as I've said, I've pulled it off multiple times before and felt WAAAAYY better and was then able to cut down my Klonopin, but psychologically I had a hard time sticking to it, and one way or another, if I am able to quit coffee again I am not sure what will keep me from that psychological dependence.

    I tend to think that at this point if I can break that dependence just one last time, no matter how I do it, that I WON'T go back to drinking a pot a day because I will remember how much I hated it, it's just getting their that's the problem.

    I think my short term plan will be to get on as strict a sleep schedule as possible, get up and work out as soon as I wake up everyday, and just try to drink as little caffeine as possible, usually without using any Amphetamines as that won't help me if I'm combining the two (which I'd be doing)...buy some Adrafanil and try it out, and very slowly cut down on the coffee.

    Then if I'm still dependent on caffeine by Christmas break I will have the time to use Adderall to break my caffeine dependence again, and then cut down on Klonopin like I did in the past, and never go back to drinking more than 1-2 cups a day, preferably none though.

    Sorry for the crazy long winded post...as you can tell, I'm pretty obsessive compulsive hahaha!! (it is Mental Health afterall...)


    I really appreciate your taking the time to write this. Most people think I'm weird as fuck that caffeine is the drug that fucks me up so much when I've used quite a few others that most people would consider to be far more serious lol).

    Do you mind if I PM you sometimes?

    Few people can tolerate my long windedness lol.

    Thanks again.
     

  9. Collapse Details
     
    #9
    Bluelighter Vastness's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    West
    Posts
    798
    Replied to your PM but just will repeat a few things here for the benefit of anyone else who might have a similar problem - firstly I really, really would not advise combining adrafinil or any ~afinil with Adderall, even though the ~afinils are somewhat "easier" stimulants they're still stimulants and combined with a hard stimulant like actual amphetamines it's likely to result in uncomfortable overstimulation and will not help any anxiety.

    The basis of my advise generally is to try replacing your current substance cocktail with easier and more forgiving substances, and on that basis going from caffeine to adrafinil is a move in the wrong direction - even if you are struggling with your caffeine intake at the moment, it's still by far the most benign substance you're on.


    Also, to clarify:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycophile
    Anyway, why exactly did you say it was a bad idea to use Adderall for those 2 weeks to break my caffeine dependency and say I shouldn't do it unless I'm suicidal?

    I mean it's actually worked very well for me several times, and I know I could pull it off right now if I just had like 10-14 days off work,
    What I meant by this was that it would have been better to let your brain adjust to not being on a stimulant - if you had time off work anyway, did you really need to be on Adderall? I would bet that the fact that you were not able to stay off caffeine has a lot to do with the fact that your brain is just conditioned to need an exogenous stimulant to work properly.

    Apologies if I missed you saying that you find it easier to quit Adderall than caffeine, I'd say this is pretty unusual but if this is the case could you not just do this now? Do you find that Adderall is not an appropriate replacement for caffeine in itself? This is also pretty surprising if so, given that Adderall is generally speaking a much more effective stimulant than caffeine - I'd be curious what your prescribed dosage is.


    To answer your earlier question also, yes, I was saying I think it's far more sensible to try to reduce your reliance on stimulants first. In general stimulants will be far more punishing to your body and mind with long term use, and while long term benzo use has it's own dangers if the dose is calibrated enough that it just reduces your anxiety and allows you to function better in day to day life then there need not, IMO, be any real urgency to get off them until such a time as you actually start to feel that they are causing you real problems on their own.

    However, if you are not planning or willing to stop using Adderall then honestly I do not think that you need an ~afinil - just to re-iterate, the intention behind this advice was to enable you to switch from a fairly hard if commonly prescribed stimulant to a "softer" one, and if you are going to keep using Adderall and caffeine (even if in lower doses) then really adding a third somewhat novel stimulant to the mix is likely to be counterproductive.

    In fact as I write this post, thinking about it, I do not think that Adrafinil is an appropriate substitute just because there is not sufficient research or history of human use compared to Modafinil. Adrafinil and associated ~afinils are basically the untested RCs of this chemical class. Modafinil even would be a safer choice than Armodafinil, I just mention Armoda~ because I use it pretty often and I like it more, but from a harm reduction perspective Modafinil is the safest option, and Adrafinil I would not advise.
     

  10. Collapse Details
     
    #10
    Moderator
    Mental Health

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    on planet earth
    Posts
    7,371
    Sounds like you guys are on a role, just read Myco's first response to my second post.

    This has likely been covered, but caffeine might cap at ~300 mg-~500 mg per day, in health. Add adderall, and they synergize, making quite a large edge during the comedown.

    I was on Provigil, 400 mg per day, along with 500 mg caffeine (five caffeine pills) and chewing redman. It has data behind it as perhaps a greater nootropic than adderall, but there's a reason why Provigil is a Schedule IV substance, and adderall a Schedule II substance. It's far, far too easy to drop into addiction mode with hard stimulants.
     

  11. Collapse Details
     
    #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastness View Post
    Replied to your PM but just will repeat a few things here for the benefit of anyone else who might have a similar problem - firstly I really, really would not advise combining adrafinil or any ~afinil with Adderall, even though the ~afinils are somewhat "easier" stimulants they're still stimulants and combined with a hard stimulant like actual amphetamines it's likely to result in uncomfortable overstimulation and will not help any anxiety.

    The basis of my advise generally is to try replacing your current substance cocktail with easier and more forgiving substances, and on that basis going from caffeine to adrafinil is a move in the wrong direction - even if you are struggling with your caffeine intake at the moment, it's still by far the most benign substance you're on.


    Also, to clarify:

    What I meant by this was that it would have been better to let your brain adjust to not being on a stimulant - if you had time off work anyway, did you really need to be on Adderall? I would bet that the fact that you were not able to stay off caffeine has a lot to do with the fact that your brain is just conditioned to need an exogenous stimulant to work properly.

    Apologies if I missed you saying that you find it easier to quit Adderall than caffeine, I'd say this is pretty unusual but if this is the case could you not just do this now? Do you find that Adderall is not an appropriate replacement for caffeine in itself? This is also pretty surprising if so, given that Adderall is generally speaking a much more effective stimulant than caffeine - I'd be curious what your prescribed dosage is.


    To answer your earlier question also, yes, I was saying I think it's far more sensible to try to reduce your reliance on stimulants first. In general stimulants will be far more punishing to your body and mind with long term use, and while long term benzo use has it's own dangers if the dose is calibrated enough that it just reduces your anxiety and allows you to function better in day to day life then there need not, IMO, be any real urgency to get off them until such a time as you actually start to feel that they are causing you real problems on their own.

    However, if you are not planning or willing to stop using Adderall then honestly I do not think that you need an ~afinil - just to re-iterate, the intention behind this advice was to enable you to switch from a fairly hard if commonly prescribed stimulant to a "softer" one, and if you are going to keep using Adderall and caffeine (even if in lower doses) then really adding a third somewhat novel stimulant to the mix is likely to be counterproductive.

    In fact as I write this post, thinking about it, I do not think that Adrafinil is an appropriate substitute just because there is not sufficient research or history of human use compared to Modafinil. Adrafinil and associated ~afinils are basically the untested RCs of this chemical class. Modafinil even would be a safer choice than Armodafinil, I just mention Armoda~ because I use it pretty often and I like it more, but from a harm reduction perspective Modafinil is the safest option, and Adrafinil I would not advise.

    I was never saying I would ADD Adrafanil on top of Adderall and caffeine in the same day: that would be downright dangerous IMO.

    I meant certain days trying to use Adrafinil instead of caffeine or to reduce it.

    I may have made a mistake even asking for amphetamines in the first place from my doctor, and I'm feeling like shit today from too much Kratom, Adderall and coffee yesterday, on top of Klonopin, red win and bendryl to fall asleep, I am a complete fucking mess and feeling terrible about myself and I really am a true addict.

    I'm really not sure what to do at this point.

    I certainly don't want to stop Kratom, and I've managed to keep it infrequent enough that I rarely get withdrawal symptoms, and that is the one substance I would actually like to keep in my life, but if I could quit everything else, even just using 0.5mgs of Klonopin for anxiety, I would do it, but I seem stuck in a terrible loop I never know how to get out of.

    If I'm not messing my body up with one thing I am messing it up with another and I can never achieve regularity doing that but I don't feel I can check myself into rehab, nor does rehab stop people from using substances anyways.

    If I felt ready I'd give all my Kratom and stimulants to a friend who'd agreed he'd take them, but I'd still be reliant on caffeine and Klonopin which both cause me some issues but at least that would be better, but somehow I still don't know if I can get myself to take that step, and my psychiatrist makes himself so unavailable and I've asked him to change my meds so much recently that I don't see it as wise to ask him once again for Modafanil and Valium...certainly I don't feel comfortable switching to Valium from Klonopin yet.

    I hate this: people give me good advice yet I don't take it.

    I have a reputation for ignoring good advice, yet somehow I never learn or feel I can't take certain advice.

    Yes, it is unusual that I find that over the course of about 2 weeks with the help of Adderall or Dexadrine I can quit coffee without getting dependent on the amphetamines at the same time, but it's worked in the past, but no, if I have any work to do at all, really anything, if I drink NO caffeine at all the Adderall is not enough to allow me to be functional. It seems I still need a few cups on top of it, which basically makes it pointless, in order to get work done.

    I find caffeine withdrawal REALLY bad for me and can't do anything without it for a good 10-14 days so that's why I find the only way I can stop is using Adderall, and if I had that time off right now that would be what I'd do again, but I don't.

    I was in a good mood yesterday when responding to you as I was high as a kite, and now my body and brain are suffering from what I've done to myself.

    I really don't know how to get out of this situation, but I'd appreciate continuing to talk to you on and off about it, that is, when I have the energy.

    Right now I should be doing work and don't think I've got the energy right now either, so if you respond and I don't always immediately get back to you that's probably why: tiredness or work or both lol.

    Thanks again.
     

  12. Collapse Details
     
    #12
    Moderator
    Mental Health

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    on planet earth
    Posts
    7,371
    ^Not sure if you felt my responses helpful or not.

    Klonopin is vastly preferred among psychiatrists compared to Valium, if one was to take a vote.

    These issues really need a psychiatrist to help one through. If you want the ultimate best for yourself, let the doc in. Otherwise, you're much more likely to end up in an inferior position in eventuality.

    They're the person you should trust, far beyond us on the internet. Even a close friend or family member whom you trust would be better than getting advice from us.

    Also, we really can't offer psychiatric advice here anyway, anything about medication, but I've been keeping this open for you to offer what we can. It's on thin ice, though.

    They're not my rules, but we need everyone to follow them, or we'll be inactivated in entirety.
     

  13. Collapse Details
     
    #13
    Bluelighter Vastness's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    West
    Posts
    798
    Quote Originally Posted by Ho-Chi-Minh View Post
    Klonopin is vastly preferred among psychiatrists compared to Valium, if one was to take a vote.
    Is that right? Would be very interested to see a source or 2 if you have time.

    I guess that goes to show how much I know - which is to say, not all that much - as well as the potential dangers of accepting advice given over the internet.

    Apologies also Ho-Chi-Minh, if I broke any rules - if I did, I've been a member of Bluelight long enough to know better. I am a strong believer in the Bluelight ethos and would hate for my actions to negatively impact Bluelight as a whole, even in some small way - especially if I have inadvertently given any dangerous advice.

    I had a little peruse of the guidelines for this forum again and just to clarify my own position, I don't mean to imply that any of my "advice" should take precedence over the advice of a trained professional - just to reiterate, anything I say is based purely on my own experience, and I have very little direct, personal experience with the substances in question so may not even have much business commenting.
     

  14. Collapse Details
     
    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Ho-Chi-Minh View Post
    ^Not sure if you felt my responses helpful or not.

    Klonopin is vastly preferred among psychiatrists compared to Valium, if one was to take a vote.

    These issues really need a psychiatrist to help one through. If you want the ultimate best for yourself, let the doc in. Otherwise, you're much more likely to end up in an inferior position in eventuality.

    They're the person you should trust, far beyond us on the internet. Even a close friend or family member whom you trust would be better than getting advice from us.

    Also, we really can't offer psychiatric advice here anyway, anything about medication, but I've been keeping this open for you to offer what we can. It's on thin ice, though.

    They're not my rules, but we need everyone to follow them, or we'll be inactivated in entirety.
    Yes some of your advice was helpful.

    Well, I'm not quite ready to talk to my psychiatrist yet for some reasons I already mentioned, but if I have no choice then eventually I might.

    I have a few ideas about how to feel a bit better but I need to actually put them into practice and they will take a lot of work.
     

  15. Collapse Details
     
    #15
    Moderator
    Mental Health

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    on planet earth
    Posts
    7,371
    That's appreciated, Vastness.

    Ironically, vastly preferred...I think taking a sample of those whom you know taking a benzo is a start. Not internet people, but real people that you know for sure take a benzo.

    I invite you to do your own research. Google Scholar is a good start beyond that.


    From well-accredited doctors, Valium is both more addictive and causes depression (in long-term use) more readily than Klonopin. I think the former is due to rate of absorption and tighter alpha1 binding. Of the benzodiazepine receptor, there are four well-known subunits (sub-receptors). These are alpha1, alpha2, alpha3, and alpha5. Alpha1, responsible mostly for a hypnotic effect, breeds the most addiction, as is thought.

    But fairly selective alpha2 agonists are great for anxiety and can be massively addicting. Of those, the most-well-known, alprazolam and loprazolam, have some sort of antidepressant effect, not sure if its related to mostly selective a2 (and to a lesser extent a3) binding. The antidepressant effect may only in the acute stage of treatment, too.

    But rate of absorption is high in both Valium and Xanax, so that may be most responsible for dangerous and addictive potential. That said, lorazepam acts fairly quickly but isn't considered recreational by its mechanism so much.

    So the stats are in regarding addiction, but not so much reasons for...
     

  16. Collapse Details
     
    #16
    I have another question, though for some reason, based on his past responses, (no offense meant either...) I'm thinking Ho Chi Minh won't want anyone else to attempt to answer it, or give his opinion either (though I'm not sure why others should not be free to comment...)

    My basic question, and it's of course based on the specific personality of the psychiatrist, is do people familiar with psychiatry think that going to a psychiatrist to ask him NOT to taper you off your benzo (mine is Klonopin), but rather, ONLY WITH HELP REGARDING BREAKING THE PHYSICAL DEPENDENCY, so that you can go from daily use to say....using 2 days a week, is something that will usually result in a psychiatrist lowering your dosage??

    Basically, I want to say to my psychiatrist: "I am noticing some unpleasant fatigue from my Klonopin, and would like to safely break the dependency so I can use it on an as-needed basis, rather than regular basis, but still have a prescription: so can you help me with that?"

    I would think this should be a reasonable request, and my psychiatrist is pretty laid back, but he's the most inconsistent doctor I've ever had, usually not giving me my prescription for like 7-10 days after it is due so I never know if I'm going to run out.

    This freaks me out because I have anxiety and benzos aren't something that is good to run out of, so I don't want him lowering my prescription, because I know he is unreliable and will never get me my meds on time, and if my asking for help with this results in him lowering my prescription it likely means I will run out at some point and go into withdrawal.

    I think this is a reasonable question to ask for opinions/advice on, because I don't think a doctor wants his patient running out of a med like Klonopin.

    Thanks.
     

  17. Collapse Details
     
    #17
    Moderator
    Mental Health

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    on planet earth
    Posts
    7,371
    I'm not going to read the BLUA to you.

    We aren't going to give you advice on how to get what you want out of a psychiatrist. Just tell them the truth.

    You've been a member for over four years. You should know better.

    Closed.
     

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •