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    Dallas officer who entered wrong apartment, killed man, arrested 
    #1
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    Mods, move to the gun debate thread if appropriate.

    Wonder how the alt right wingnuts are going to spin this one. This time, the victim, instead of being a poor black man with a criminal history, turned out to be an educated professional working as an accountant at PricewaterhouseCoopers, whose relatives include politicians and government ministers in his native St. Lucia. Had I had children, I would have taught them never ever ever involve the police in anything unless it's a life threatening emergency and even then, don't trust them.

    A Dallas police officer who allegedly entered an apartment that she believed was her own and fatally shot the resident was arrested Sunday for investigation of manslaughter. Amber Guyger, 30, a four-year veteran with the Dallas Police Department, allegedly went into the wrong apartment in her building last Thursday night and fatally shot Botham Shem Jean, a 26-year-old native of the Caribbean island of St. Lucia. Guyger, of Dallas, was arrested in Kaufman County and booked into the Kaufman County Jail, the Texas Rangers said in a statement. Guyger was released Sunday night on $300,000 bail, NBC Dallas-Fort Worth reported. The shooting just before 10 p.m. local time (11 p.m. ET) at the South Side Flats, an upscale apartment building south of Dallas downtown, occurred when Guyger was off-duty, police said. Police said in a statement Friday that the officer "returned to what she believed to be her apartment after her shift ended," and that "she was still in uniform when she encountered Mr. Botham Shem Jean inside the apartment." Police said it wasn't clear what interaction occurred between the officer and the victim, but at one point the officer fired her weapon and struck Jean. The officer then called 911, and firefighters transported Jean to a hospital where he died.

    Jean attended Harding University, a private Christian institution in Arkansas, and he belonged to the Good News Singers and the campus ministry. He worked for PricewaterhouseCoopers as an associate in its risk assurance department, the company said. During a Friday night vigil, a friend of Jean's, Simba Musarurwa, described him as a kind, charismatic extrovert. "He was a very uplifting kind of person," Musarurwa recalled. " He was probably one of the most likeable people I had ever met." Jean's mother, Allie Jean, who lives in St. Lucia, said that Jean, her "heart," had been taken by the officer. "She took away my soul, she took away everything," she said Friday. "He didn't deserve to die like that." A lawyer for the family, Lee Merritt, said Sunday that Guyger's arrest "was a step in the right direction," though he added that "most citizens would have been charged" on the night the crime occurred. Allie Jean was "somewhat relieved" by the arrest, Merritt said. "However, she still has a lot of questions that she was disappointed couldn't be answered by the D.A." It wasn't immediately clear if Guyger had a lawyer.

    Guyger also shot someone on May 12, 2017, during what police described as "physical confrontation" in which a man allegedly grabbed an officer's stun gun, Dallas police said at the time. In February, the man reached a plea agreement on a charge of taking an officer?s weapon and was sentenced to two years in prison, the Dallas Morning news reported.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...ughter-n907976
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    I don't see what there is to discuss, she's been arrested... Isn't that what you'd expect to have happen in a just system?

    As for where this thread belongs, personally I'd think this was more of a killer cop discussion than a gun discussion. I'd say discussing gun rights here would be straying off topic.

    The only way I can see them overlapping is a discussion about if cops should be allowed to be armed off duty, which personally I'd call a proxy discussion for if cops should be armed at all. If they should be, then they should always be able to be.

    That's my take anyhow.
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    Well I guess maybe that she wasn't initially going to be charged with murder, but with manslaughter. Though I think they're discussing whether to change that.

    I only ever thought it was a cop killer discussion. I guess the implication is that she killed a black man and claimed she thought it was self-defense even though she was in his apartment, not hers.

    I dunno, I don't know much about the case.
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    Way I see it, what's important here is if she should have rightly realized it wasn't her apartment, and to a certain extent how the guy she shot behaved as well.

    Without a lot more specific information about exactly how it all happened, it's hard to know what punishment she should receive.

    It's not impossible that charging her with second degree murder is appropriate, but it seems unlikely. Manslaughter seems to me to be the most appropriate charge, and only if she should have known better. There's a small chance it was a freak accident and that she shouldn't be convicted at all.

    I hate these kinds of discussions. Because people have these bullshit, biased, and totally ignorant ideas about how the law works, and why it works the way it does and the enormous thought that's gone into it. People just suck,and they always go to extremes. It can't ever be that some cops killed people for no good reason and got away with it, while others killed someone in a regrettable but unavoidable confrontation. They either think they're all guilty or all innocent.
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    Imagine it was some other random person rather than a police officer... do you think it would work to say, sorry officer/judge/jury, I thought I went into my own apartment, that's why I shot the guy. It doesn't seem like a valid excuse to me that would fly with anyone and police officers should be held to at least as high a standard as regular people.

    So if you essentially break into someone else's apartment (whether the door was unlocked or not it's still unauthorized entrance into someone else's residence), and shoot them, you should probably be charged with murder unless they were coming at you aggressively and you believed you had reason to fear for your life, in which case it should probably be manslaughter since that person was actually defending themselves and you were the initial aggressor (and someone advancing towards you yelling is not a valid reason to shoot them after you've entered their home against their will, and they feel that you are a threat to them. Advancing angrily is an appropriate reaction from them). It should certainly be something she is charged with.

    I just don't see how "oops, my bad, I had the wrong apartment, sorry" is an excuse. You have the responsibility to realize whether or not you're breaking into someone else's home. That's on you.
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    Like I said, I don't know enough of the details to have an opinion. All I'm saying is that it's possible that this was simply a horrible misunderstanding. If so, it does no good for society whatsoever to put this woman in jail.

    As for if it were someone else other than a cop, yes actually I do believe it's possible for other people to not wind up being charged, and even more possible to they won't be found guilty, depending on circumstance.

    But, even if you were right, that wouldn't mean that this cop in this situation should be found guilty.

    My point is, I can think of ways that this could have been a genuine and largely unavoidable accident. Granted it doesn't seem as likely as the possibility she was seriously negligent. And on the whole I suspect it will turn out that was the case, that this could and should have been avoided. But, if, hypothetically it were to turn out to be a horrible but largely unavoidable accident, it doesn't help society to just put her on jail, nor do I see how thats just.
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    #7
    A horrible accident.

    Though she probably has the IQ of a goat.
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    I find it hard to believe she thought it was her apartment, unless she was extremely intoxicated, in which case she shouldn't have been armed. I can't think of any valid way this could have been accidental.
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    #9
    how did she enter the premises?

    "Officer Amber Guyger, 30, said that when she inserted her key in Botham Jean’s door Thursday night, it opened because it had been slightly ajar."

    did she not notice different furniture?

    "The affidavit, which appeared to be based solely on Guyger's account, states that she was on the phone with 911 reporting the shooting when she turned on the apartment lights and discovered she was in the wrong apartment."

    shoot first ask questions later doesn't apply to the old west anymore?! only in certain and rare cases. gawd invegauser, your such an idiot sometimes.

    angry lover dispute?

    "risk assessment" irony is not lost on me, not trying to be a d**k.

    you reach for an officers weapon you know you take your life in your own hands and you best get it form them less you end up 6 feet under. i know we disproved common sense being common but this comment is a fact.

    "Dallas Police Chief U. Renee Hall earlier said Guyger's blood was drawn at the scene so that it could be tested for alcohol and drugs."

    most of this i've gotten from this link. it adds more info not found in the first one here: http://www.keranews.org/post/affidav...ys-question-it

    here's one stating how she got in and differences between her's and his: https://www.dallasnews.com/news/dall...-official-says

    i can not find anything on mental illness or hate of any kind but haven't looked much.

    good general conversation topic aihfl.

    @JessFR: yes everyone sucks. the important thing to remember is some spit and some swallow.
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    The big question I have is what caused her to shoot.

    If she just shot the first person she saw in what she thought was her apartment, then I think that's unacceptable.

    But I can imagine the possibility that the guy she shot believed he was being broken into and attacked her, if that's what happened that complicates things.

    There's just not enough information. I know I'm in a minority in this, but I largely trust the judicial system and have a fairly high degree of confidence that this will be sorted out appropriately in court. In my experience that's what happens more often than not.

    I know most people's experience is the exact opposite, but I think a lot of those experienced amount to biases and ignorance of how the law works and why it works how it does.

    In nearly every case of supposed judicial corruption or injustice I've been told about or heard about, once I looked into the facts and underlying details I've nearly always wound up coming to the conclusion that the courts were right. And in most of the cases where I still thought the outcome was unjust. It was a lawful injustice caused by bad laws the legislative branch were responsible for. Not the courts.
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    #11
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    Shouldn't a cop have training about how to quickly assess a situation before shooting someone?

    Seems like they should be held to a higher standard, not a lower one.
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    #12
    Quote Originally Posted by invegauser View Post
    did she not notice different furniture?
    lmao

    According to the second link you posted it sounds like she saw a figure in the dark and maybe her eyes hadn't adjusted to the level of darkness...? Sounds a bit fishy but everyone's eyes are different.

    That's Texas for you though. Shoot first, ask questions later. I live in a city where we all keep our garage doors open, our front doors unlocked, our cars unlocked at night. My dad used to joke that people here are more likely to stash vegetables in your car than drive away with it. Here we knock before shooting... that is to say we try and establish what the fuck is actually going on before murdering someone.
    Last edited by iridescentblack; 12-09-2018 at 13:08.
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    #13
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    Having thought more about it, I can't see how she could rightfully not be charged and convicted unless part of what happened involved the guy panicing and charging at her, or some similarly unambiguous hostile action. Anything else really doesn't justify her shooting him when she was in the wrong house, no matter what the other circumstances were. If she just saw him and shot before he'd done anything, that's virtually impossible to justify.

    Problem is, it's quite plausible that the guy did do that, given it's quite plausible he thought he was the victim of a home invasion. Another good question is if she was in uniform or not and announced herself as police or not.

    Ill admit it's caught my curiosity. I'm interested to see how it turns out.
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    #14
    Upon further reading I discovered that she parked her car on the wrong floor of a 4 story flat. This could explain some of the confusion in the matter.

    https://www.dallasnews.com/news/dall...tions-answered
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