Bluelight

Thread: Sanders' new terrible idea!

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 51 to 68 of 68
  1. Collapse Details
     
    #51
    Senior Moderator
    Sober Living
    Words
    Captain.Heroin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    My hopes are blighted, my heart is broken, my life a burden, everything around me is sad and mournful; earth has become distasteful to me, and human voices distract me. It is mercy to let me die, for if I live I shall lose my reason and become mad.
    Posts
    68,310
    ^ you probably didn’t live in a right to work state
    Reply With Quote
     

  2. Collapse Details
     
    #52
    Bluelighter
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    78
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain.Heroin View Post
    ^ you probably didn’t live in a right to work state
    I have. In Michigan. I got rolled, badly. Btw. Hands up for the winner of the best euphemism in the history of mankind. “Right to work state” lol

    I respectively disagree with CH on some of his points. But in this case he’s right.
    Reply With Quote
     

  3. Collapse Details
     
    #53
    Senior Moderator
    Sober Living
    Words
    Captain.Heroin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    My hopes are blighted, my heart is broken, my life a burden, everything around me is sad and mournful; earth has become distasteful to me, and human voices distract me. It is mercy to let me die, for if I live I shall lose my reason and become mad.
    Posts
    68,310
    We need those laws CHANGED. I’m not opposed to more protections for workers.
    Reply With Quote
     

  4. Collapse Details
     
    #54
    Bluelight Crew CFC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Koffin, Uganda
    Posts
    8,886
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Funkhouse View Post
    Hey thanks dude

    Just realised you're not a mod anymore. Tis a pity cos I reckon you're probably a very reasonable non biased moderator.
    I'm more of a lurker than a poster and respect how you can post in the middle of a thread that is a total shit storm without getting involved or causing more trouble.


    ...my memory and concentration sucks bad so hopefully I haven't got you mixed up with someone else. (Don't think so though).


    Back on topic: politicians and economics eh. That's some stuff ain't it.
    Right adults you may carry on
    Thanks Bob

    Mate, I think people should lurk less and just jump in the middle of heated threads with their own thoughts more often, so it gives opportunities for those not into that specific argument to get involved in the topic. Threads should be a whole bunch of different discussions among different people going on at the same time imo
    Reply With Quote
     

  5. Collapse Details
     
    #55
    Professor Emeritus TheLoveBandit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2000
    Location
    Getting to the point ...
    Posts
    23,408
    Quote Originally Posted by CFC View Post
    The UK (like most Euro countries) always used to have much stronger unions, who would bargain for wages with industry/corporate owners on their behalf and achieve good wages that way. So I don't think there was felt to be much need for the state to step in to prevent abuse of the capital owner vs wage labourer relationship.

    However with the whole post-industrial turn and the subsequent collapse in membership (and clout) of the major trade unions (and evaporation of relatively well-paid working class jobs), and the expansion of tertiary industry in its place (eg retail) which was not organised along the same union lines, there was felt to be a need for someone to step in and prevent exploitation (to act as a balance against capital owners). Wages could be as low as ?1-3/hr in the late '90s for many employees, even less for immigrant cleaners, labourers, fruit pickers etc. Hence the state-sanctioned minimum wage was eventually brought in by the Labour administration.
    Thank you, I appreciate the perspective. $1-3/h in the 90's? I never imagined that possible in a first world country.

    Quote Originally Posted by swilow View Post
    Really can't understand the debate TBH. Minimum wage just seems obvious to me, perhaps from my bias as an Australian. That said, I could not tell you what minimum wage is but iirc it is dependant on what field of employment one is working in.

    ...

    I wonder if robots will replace librarians. Ha, there won't even be books
    To the first part, if I read you correctly, you are implying min wage based on job type? So working field A earns $X while working in field B earns $Y? That won't work. You'll have nobody willing to work in field A if it pays less. Unless you are implying that field A pays less because the work is less demanding...that would kinda make sense. But that's what the job market has now. If you want more pay, do what it takes to get to field B.

    To the second part, there are way too many people who prefer the feel of a real book. They should never go away. However, I can imagine a library like a robot attended vending machine

    Quote Originally Posted by aihfl View Post
    Anyone who rails against government assistance clearly hasn't had to rely on it. Are you aware of time and trouble involved in collecting benefits for what ends up being a laughable pittance for only a limited amount of time?

    ...

    You would be pretty lucky to be on benefits "without end." The maximum time you can be on unemployment where I live is 26 weeks, no extensions. For a measly $550 a month. The hoops you have to jump through to collect that pittance are unbelievable. I remember a politician saying "they need to crack down on the deadbeats." Who in their right mind would voluntarily go from being employed to not having to work, for that amount of money? Right after the state legislation passed making it more difficult to collect unemployment, my weekly filing would nearly always get gummed up for some reason until out of frustration I called my state senator's office and got some help. For a Republican, he was surprisingly helpful. And he didn't accuse me of being a "deadbeat." And he said he would have a word with his colleague who made that gaffe.
    FTR, I have been on unemployment, more than once. Sometimes needing to support much more than myself with that measly ~$500/mo. I was extremely grateful for that assistance, but I also knew I'd paid in to earn it, so it didn't feel so much like a handout as much as calling in an insurance plan I'd paid premiums on. But I know what you mean about the hoops they make you jump through. I also know the motivation it provided to get a job ASAP, whatever it took.
    Reply With Quote
     

  6. Collapse Details
     
    #56
    Bluelight Crew CFC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Koffin, Uganda
    Posts
    8,886
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLoveBandit View Post
    Thank you, I appreciate the perspective. $1-3/h in the 90's? I never imagined that possible in a first world country
    Back then a pound was nearer to $2, so more like $2-6, and only the really insecure-type jobs would pay that. But still, I remember earning something like $6/hr when the minimum wage was first introduced, working in bars and cafes and stuff (we don't, on the whole, earn tips in the UK), and it was pretty hard to live on tbh.
    Reply With Quote
     

  7. Collapse Details
     
    #57
    Shadowmeister
    Senior Moderator
    Psychedelic Drugs
    Trip Reports
    Philosophy and Spirituality
    The Dark Side
    Shadowmeister's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Nowhere
    Posts
    30,994
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLoveBandit View Post
    FTR, I have been on unemployment, more than once. Sometimes needing to support much more than myself with that measly ~$500/mo. I was extremely grateful for that assistance, but I also knew I'd paid in to earn it, so it didn't feel so much like a handout as much as calling in an insurance plan I'd paid premiums on. But I know what you mean about the hoops they make you jump through. I also know the motivation it provided to get a job ASAP, whatever it took.
    That's one thing I don't get about when people protest social safety nets like welfare/unemployment/etc. We pay taxes; what the fuck are we paying taxes for if we don't get benefits when we need them? I realize there are things like infrastructure that we pay taxes for, but if I were to claim unemployment (I never have yet and hopefully never will have to), I wouldn't feel bad about it. I've been paying income tax ever since I started working. I don't feel bad when I use my insurance, why should I feel bad when I use my welfare benefits?
    Reply With Quote
     

  8. Collapse Details
     
    #58
    Senior Moderator
    Sober Living
    Words
    Captain.Heroin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    My hopes are blighted, my heart is broken, my life a burden, everything around me is sad and mournful; earth has become distasteful to me, and human voices distract me. It is mercy to let me die, for if I live I shall lose my reason and become mad.
    Posts
    68,310
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeister View Post
    That's one thing I don't get about when people protest social safety nets like welfare/unemployment/etc. We pay taxes; what the fuck are we paying taxes for if we don't get benefits when we need them? I realize there are things like infrastructure that we pay taxes for, but if I were to claim unemployment (I never have yet and hopefully never will have to), I wouldn't feel bad about it. I've been paying income tax ever since I started working. I don't feel bad when I use my insurance, why should I feel bad when I use my welfare benefits?
    I would feel bad because I am already a drain on society and people despise me for who I am. Unwelcome feelings.
    Reply With Quote
     

  9. Collapse Details
     
    #59
    Shadowmeister
    Senior Moderator
    Psychedelic Drugs
    Trip Reports
    Philosophy and Spirituality
    The Dark Side
    Shadowmeister's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Nowhere
    Posts
    30,994
    I don't understand how that answers my concern. What do we pay taxes for if not for social safety nets?
    Reply With Quote
     

  10. Collapse Details
     
    #60
    Senior Moderator
    Sober Living
    Words
    Captain.Heroin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    My hopes are blighted, my heart is broken, my life a burden, everything around me is sad and mournful; earth has become distasteful to me, and human voices distract me. It is mercy to let me die, for if I live I shall lose my reason and become mad.
    Posts
    68,310
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeister View Post
    I don't understand how that answers my concern. What do we pay taxes for if not for social safety nets?
    I should have specified; I was specifically addressing the last question/sentence in your quoted post. Not so much the whole; my apologies.
    Reply With Quote
     

  11. Collapse Details
     
    #61
    Shadowmeister
    Senior Moderator
    Psychedelic Drugs
    Trip Reports
    Philosophy and Spirituality
    The Dark Side
    Shadowmeister's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Nowhere
    Posts
    30,994
    Oh gotcha. I was pretty intoxicated last night, for the record, not my best time to be posting.

    But I don't mind any tax dollars of mine that go to you when you need them, because I know that if I need them, I'll have it, too.
    Reply With Quote
     

  12. Collapse Details
     
    #62
    Senior Moderator
    Sober Living
    Words
    Captain.Heroin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    My hopes are blighted, my heart is broken, my life a burden, everything around me is sad and mournful; earth has become distasteful to me, and human voices distract me. It is mercy to let me die, for if I live I shall lose my reason and become mad.
    Posts
    68,310
    I don’t deserve it.

    Would be happier for the deficit to go down.
    Reply With Quote
     

  13. Collapse Details
     
    #63
    Shadowmeister
    Senior Moderator
    Psychedelic Drugs
    Trip Reports
    Philosophy and Spirituality
    The Dark Side
    Shadowmeister's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Nowhere
    Posts
    30,994
    Yeah that would be great. However, wouldn't it better to spend the money we do spend on the people that pay taxes, rather than on the war machine, and lining the pockets of the ultra-wealthy and corporations?
    Reply With Quote
     

  14. Collapse Details
     
    #64
    Bluelighter Bagseed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    flat spacetime
    Posts
    3,481
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain.Heroin View Post
    I don’t deserve it.

    Would be happier for the deficit to go down.
    yeah but society isn't only about you...
    Reply With Quote
     

  15. Collapse Details
     
    #65
    Administrator spacejunk's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    20,572
    There's no such thing as a "drain on society". So long as you spend money, you are contributing to the economy.

    That's why things like the Universal Basic Income are proposed - to keep economies afloat. There is talk of raising unemployment benefits in australia at the momentc because more money in consumers' pockets is an investment in the economy - and unlike rich people, poor people tend to put most or all of their income back into the economy.

    Do you know how australia managed to be one of the few western nations to avoid a recession in the GFC in 2009?

    They gave every working person (everyone who had submitted a tax return the previous year) a lump sum of $800 (or was it $900?) to put into the economy.
    It worked. It kept people spending, which stopped people losing their jobs.

    Efforts to keep people out of dire poverty has far more flow-on effects than human dignity - it helps markets.
    I really detest "rugged individualist" philosophy, and hope that neo-liberal american style politics will stop polluting our country via right wing politicians. It's dismal.
    ✺✹✺✹BLUA✺✹✺✹
    Reply With Quote
     

  16. Collapse Details
     
    #66
    Senior Moderator
    Current Events and Politics
    Music Discussion
    swilow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Shielding off the weakening beams of salvation shining upon the mournful gloom of Earth
    Posts
    30,266
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLoveBandit View Post
    To the first part, if I read you correctly, you are implying min wage based on job type? So working field A earns $X while working in field B earns $Y? That won't work. You'll have nobody willing to work in field A if it pays less. Unless you are implying that field A pays less because the work is less demanding...that would kinda make sense. But that's what the job market has now. If you want more pay, do what it takes to get to field B.
    Yes, I think that is what I meant.

    I'm not even sure its true anymore; but I think there are negotiated (by unions perhaps?) 'award' wages for various industries, so minimum wage for, say, a bartender might be more/less than it is for the bathtub salesperson, who's industry has a different negiotated wage. Honestly, I have no idea if that is even true; I just know that for my industry (and in many) the actual pay you receive can be determined in part by your qualification and, of course, the nature of your work. I had a bachelors degree and was working in my field; I was also doing an additional masters degree and as soon as I received the qualification, my job title and consequent pay increased though the actual nature of my work didn't so much. Oddly, my workplace encourage this further education- why would you want to pay someone more to do the same? Anyway, I completely and utterly fucked that particular career path so I can forget that particular lifelong dream

    To the second part, there are way too many people who prefer the feel of a real book. They should never go away. However, I can imagine a library like a robot attended vending machine
    I can see that, and even like the idea (vending machine). Personally, I think libraries can play a different role in a community, but my ideal job is more research based, though I enjoyed preservation and archival work (the latter is not quite as enjoyable on Bluelight I must say )

    Real books are the perfect piece of technology. They have worked for hundreds of years; I see no real improvement to be made.

    FTR, I have been on unemployment, more than once.
    Ain't no shame in that at all, I've been there too. I say 'no shame' but of course that isn't neccesarily the case; working in and of itself provides a sense of purpose and self-worth and if its something you've worked towards (and love doing) work can be incredibly satisfying. Conversely, not working erodes dignity and coupling that with having to ask the goverment for money (and the attitudes of some people who look down of unemployed people), shame is unfortunately ever present in an such an situation. I feel a bit of satisfaction in actually currently being unemployed (and probably unemployable) but having the resources to look after myself comfortably without having to rely on anybody including the government.

    Anyway, I apologise if I've gone too far off topic.
    Reply With Quote
     

  17. Collapse Details
     
    #67
    Senior Moderator
    Sober Living
    Words
    Captain.Heroin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    My hopes are blighted, my heart is broken, my life a burden, everything around me is sad and mournful; earth has become distasteful to me, and human voices distract me. It is mercy to let me die, for if I live I shall lose my reason and become mad.
    Posts
    68,310
    Quote Originally Posted by Bagseed View Post
    yeah but society isn't only about you...
    The implications of a totally bankrupt and soon to expire government would be catastrophic for all Americans. Some of us want to see our government survive beyond our own generation.

    Quote Originally Posted by spacejunk View Post
    There's no such thing as a "drain on society". So long as you spend money, you are contributing to the economy.
    I think that's a lofty minded concept that a considerable amount of left-leaning people would agree with, unfortunately I don't think I can. I've been a total drain on society.

    Quote Originally Posted by spacejunk View Post
    They gave every working person (everyone who had submitted a tax return the previous year) a lump sum of $800 (or was it $900?) to put into the economy.
    It worked. It kept people spending, which stopped people losing their jobs.
    Oh blah blah blah; W. Bush did something similar during tax season and it didn't help the economy, at all, because our gov't was bankrupting itself over the wars (which I'm actually glad we're doing but most of us over here including you aren't so grateful for...)
    Reply With Quote
     

  18. Collapse Details
     
    #68
    Senior Moderator
    Current Events and Politics
    Music Discussion
    swilow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Shielding off the weakening beams of salvation shining upon the mournful gloom of Earth
    Posts
    30,266
    Space j is aussie. Why would he be grateful for American warmongering? Meh.
    Reply With Quote
     

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •