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PCP vs ketamine safety

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markosheehan

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Sep 17, 2016
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is PCP a safer alternative to ketamine?

Physically speaking it seems so as PCP lacks the same liver,cardio,bladder damage that ketamine has from heavy use.

I am concerned though over PCPs neurotoxicity. At a reasonable dosage and age ketamine is not neurotoxic but can the same be said for PCP? I cant find data comparing the neurotoxicty of them. does anyone know any studies regrading this or could anyone predict if it is more or less neurotoxic than ketamine?
 
It undoubtedly is more neurotoxic.

Are you trying to always be on a dissociative drug? You'll face physical and psychological addiction. Withdrawal, eventually, if and when you want to quit. Large increase in tolerance over time. Personality changes, onset of paranoid/delusional thinking is common in dissociative users.
 
I don't mind the psychological adverse effects like paranoia etc. I'm much more concerned about the neurotoxic effects and adverse physical effects.

K seems quite hard on the body. Most people will say K is only bad for your body if taken in huge amounts for long time periods but I've gotten bladder problems from infrequent use.

Are there any studies you know comparing neurotoxicity of k to PCP?
 
probably won't exist; they phased out pcp a long time ago. any studies you find would be on non-humanoid species like mice and rats, I believe.
 
markosheehan said:
I don't mind the psychological adverse effects like paranoia etc. I'm much more concerned about the neurotoxic effects and adverse physical effects.
Click to expand...

Psychological effects such as paranoia could be a response to the neurotoxicity of the substance.
In that case I would be equally worried.


DocLad
 
It could be but just because a substance induces paranoia does not mean its neurotoxic. Look at cannabis for example.

It's not right at all to say pcp is more neurotoxic than ketamine because it has a higher tenancy to induce paranoia.

Also some people do pcp without paranoia.
 
I smoked it in high doses for years and did not experience paranoia.
 
PCP is pretty physically safe if you keep doses reasonable. Mentally though, it's much more prone to excited delerium/fugue states because it's not as immobilizing as K.
 
Sekio,
Do you know if PCP neurotoxicity is of concern?
Does it have any additional neurotoxicity concerns relative to ketamine and do you know which is more neurotoxic?
 
What consumption pattern are we talking about here? I think it could be a factor to consider.
I suppose that an average dose of K or PCP from time to time is less harmful to the body / mind than a massive daily consumption. I would apply this rule for all substances that have a similar pharmacological profile. I'm wrong?

Then I wonder if the neurotixity of a substance is an intrinsic value of the molecule or depends on the amount consumed and the consumption pattern.


DocLad
 
If it's worth anything (and it's not), I've messed with dissociatives for years and can report no long-term ill health effects.
 
Doclad,
Just on weekends Friday and Saturday. And not even at high doses to k hole, just to relieve depression and anxiety.

Off course neurotoxicity depends on the amount consumed and consumption pattern.
 
I've never used ketamine, only PCP- and PCE-analogues. I haven't noticed any long-term effects after years of pretty hard use.
 
I have been a heavy user of dissociatives too (speaking of a few hundreds of grams in total, mostly 2'-oxo-pcm > methoxetamine > ketamine. DXM in younger age.) and they felt forgiving for quite long but at some certain point this changed abruptly. This was when I began to use them to kill the pain of my (ex) girlfriend leaving me, consuming steadily without time for the body & brain to recover and staying up for days with no or very little sleep, then crashing and nearly sleeping through the following 2 days ...

But were they really forgiving before? I don't know. I have had mental problems before (social anxiety, constant inner tension, rapidly changing mood..) but today I am more dysphoric and introverted than ever.. the lack of joy in life is a nightmare. Although it is all coupled with bad shit I did in the past, one leading to the other ... I cheated my girlfriend while being high on MXE + synth cannabinoids, for example - I do not blame the drugs because it was me but I doubt that I would have done it then, in that way and most peculiar with that certain girl ...

Dissociatives, well, they dissociate one from his/her life ... so shit's done much more easily ... even without full-on mania.

But back to the topic.
Can't say for sure but I think my cognitive skills are more or less how they have been before. Curiously, on lower-ish dosages of some arylcyclohexylamines my cognition actually increased. I was able to write faster and more fluent in English, for example. Or to comprehend some complex topics in mathematics and IT .. but this lasted only as long as the drug's effects.
What has changed to the worse are my emotions, my social skills - the latter have never been good or even average (I'm not the psychopath kind of guy but too shy, awkwardly introverted, maybe borderline-autistic) but together with that damn dysphoria it feels like I'm damned to live alone forever..

Might have much to do with how I (ab)used these chemicals the last three years, alone and to "get over" being alone, getting my love out of myself and these chemicals instead of a girl (they are mostly out of reach for somebody like me anyways so..) or friends (the same but different causes)

Also it fucked up my sexuality. I'm inable to reach orgasm atm, although I am on morphine maintenance too now (just 200-300mg) but it started before that.

My urinary tract suffered a bit too, it's not that bad but one can't stress enough to really care about staying well hydrated whilst using dissociatives. I forgot that at some point in my disso "career" and it certainly got much worse due to that.
Methoxetamine overall felt like the least body load, maybe it was also the most well synthesized (at least these pre-ban batches). Never had access to medical ketamine.

Really don't stay on dissociatives all days (like I did). Please. They are very good tools but need to be used carefully.
 
Try memantine, if anything. It only show dissociative properties when REALLY hammered, (although if so, it will do for a long time, days potentially), but it seems to totally equalize and balance things out. To the point where I'll actually be people-person-ish enough to check email at least monthly, and speak to people other than to make my requirements known (E.g buying food and wanting smokes too) without near enough wanting to go take a bath in molten willy pete as alternative.

I'm bona-fide autie, I should add, as far as anti/a-social goes. Card carrying short-bus-hijacker since ground zero, similar HEAVY use of dissociatives. Small doses have proved lifesaver, of more typical NMDA blockers, but far too prone to being VERY addictive to one with a naturally introverted personality. I probably narrowly escaped getting roasted alive on more typical NMDA antagonists. But memantine, its ideal IMO, in that it seems to 'level out' the autie side of my personality to just the degree of spazz I want, or rather, let it out full on, just doesn't get in the way of communication, as well as having a helluva half life. Does wonders for opioid dependence too.
 
I have a few problems with Memantine. First of all it's half life is crazy long and I could still feel it after 24 hours. It also has a bad stimulating effect I find sometimes and I end up not being able to sleep.

Worst of all I find though is its dopamine 2 agonist effect which causes an increase in anxiety which is counter productive considering if your aim is to reduce anxiety.

Do you know anyway to overcome this. Take a D2 antagonist?
 
I've never tried that. One gets used to dopamine agonists though, for something like say, pramipexole for example, when I first took it, it made me extremely nauseous, vomited when stepping the dose up, but with time the effects faded into the background. There is a biphasic response to memantine, I don't know how it is for others regarding dopaminergic effects, but I respond well to it even at 100-150mg BD, but initially, there is a depressive effect upon cognition, due IMO likely to its being an alpha7 type nicotinic acetylcholine receptor antagonist (agonists at this NAChR site are nootropic), which causes memory issues, brain fog, until upregulation of alpha7 NAChRs takes place. I never found it stimulating myself though, not in an excessive or anxiogenic way.

I couldn't attempt to combine it with a D2 antagonist though, I'm hypersensitive to them, even domperidone is out, for me, and that isn't meant to pass the BBB. They make me feel like fucking death in the tiniest amounts, and can make me quite ill.

The long half life is something I like about it actually, meaning twice daily dosing works nicely, perhaps a small mid-day or mid-night booster dose (I'm on the nocturnal side of diurnal as a rule. Weird, totally fucked autie 'circadian rhythms', spoken in inverted quotation marks because I'm referring more to a lack of such, where one apparently normally is for most.

What sort of dosing were you using, and how long did you keep at it? because IMO the true capacity to shine, it takes to push past the initial portion of the biphasic response, until alpha7 NAChR upregulation, etc. which takes a little time. And some take to higher doses than do others.
 
When taken in therapeutic dosages, or even slightly above them (I was on 40mg/d for months, even though in retrospective I might have profited more from a lower dosage) the dopamine agonism isn't that strong (of course) than when using 100mg. I had none of the side effects of dopamine agonism and I do have really bad social anxiety. Also, quitting memantine is seemingly much easier than getting off potent dopamine agonists.

However, moderate D2 agonism can and does also help some with social anxiety.

Back then I felt somehow underwhelmed by the memantine but I am considering starting it again. Currently I am using low-dose dextromethorphan and at least without quinidine/bupropion it has a slightly psychotomimetic nature I don't like for extended periods. As far as I remember, memantine felt rather antipsychotic but in a "good" way & very different than dopamine antagonists to which I react similarly as Limpet_Chicken describes.
 
Memantine is actually good fun at the 250+mg dose level, if you're brave enough.
 
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