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Thread: What is socialism? Do I like it? Why or why not?

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    #26
    Administrator spacejunk's Avatar
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    the truth about fascism - as it relates to socialism - is that the fascists learned many of the tricks of seizing power from socialist revolutionaries.
    mussolini was a socialist in his early years.

    but the fascists of italy and of nazi germany were always bitter enemies of socialism.
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    #27
    No country or society has ever taxed its way into prosperity. There are so many nations with varying degrees of socialism but only one constitutionally limited representitive republic and that?s the good old USA. I fear once it?s gone or voted away into another version of socialism it?s gone for good. Our system of government is by no means perfect but it?s the most perfect system on earth warts scars and all.
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    #28
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    Our system of government is by no means perfect but it?s the most perfect system on earth warts scars and all.
    Not perfect but the most perfect?

    i don't know about that. richest nation in the history of mankind, yet there are more than half a million homeless people (source: America's homeless population rises for the first time since the Great Recession - a 9 month old article but still relevant i think) and the largest number of imprisoned people of any country ever.
    the access to affordable healthcare is abysmal, as is the growing wealth inequality.

    not to bash america, but she ain't perfect. about half my family live in the US but i definitely prefer life here, fwiw.

    i don't believe anyone claimed that a "country or society has ever taxed its way into prosperity" - simply that socialist priorities have better outcomes for citizens of countries that adopt them.
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    #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spaznot View Post
    No country or society has ever taxed its way into prosperity.
    except for the US. the US was most prosperous when the top tax rates were 90%

    and states with high income taxes outperform states with no income tax
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    #30
    Quote Originally Posted by spacejunk View Post
    I think it fundamentally comes down to compassion and empathy.
    I can't agree with this more.

    But this is how I would go about it:

    There's a sneaky but powerful segment of the population that fundamentally lack compassion and empathy.
    They have no conscience. They crave power and delight in cruelty. They are comprised of all races, all sexes and all political affiliations.
    Roughly 6% of the world are estimated to be psychopaths.

    A Polish psychiatrist named Lobaczewski studied his psychopathic oppressors during WWII. His class was the last to be properly taught about psychopathy before Soviet ideology took over and the subject was banned.
    Psychology and psychiatry students are still taught about psychopathy but only the extreme criminal varieties.
    They're not taught about the "garden variety psychopath" or the "sociopath next door", which should be household knowledge.
    Psychopaths have effectively created an environment where the public is unaware of their methods and they're free to wreak chaos and destruction.
    The way they can recognize each other, congregate at the highest levels of power and spread their evil macrosocially is described in Lobaczewski's book Political Ponerology (ponerology being the study of evil).

    There are pathological people masquerading as normal. Psychopaths exhibit the same traits as leaders and are very charismatic.
    If this issue is not addressed first - then a revolution upending the system from capitalism to any ism is going to be doomed to fail as the same types will ascend and destroy.
    And we've seen what happens when these types take control of a socialist system. It's far worse than when it happens under a capitalist one.
    The well-meaning, compassionate ones that push hard for the initial revolution are often the ones to be executed first.

    My desired result would be something like Capitalism with a Conscience. You can still implement social services and welfare to take care of the people that literally can't help themselves.
    But the ones who are able will understand that we're born into this fucked up world and we need to do work to produce food and comfort.
    The current system needed regulations to increase the salaries of all workers exponential to CEOs and the "1%".
    But that's what happens when the moguls congregate with the politicians and they subvert laws to immorally maximize their gains at the expense of everyone else.
    The US constitution for eg, with its separation of powers is a brilliant piece of political philosophy that would work great if we didn't allow our elected leaders to piss all over it.

    My solution: anyone who applies for any position of power (politician, CEO, law enforcement, judicial, medical, educator) must undertake the psychopathy checklist (PCL-R) before being considered qualified.
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    #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGrimez View Post
    My solution: anyone who applies for any position of power (politician, CEO, law enforcement, judicial, medical, educator) must undertake the psychopathy checklist (PCL-R) before being considered qualified.
    This is a great idea. I agree with you that the sociopaths/psychopaths are the problem. They always eventually corrupt every system, no matter how noble its inception.
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    #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGrimez View Post
    My solution: anyone who applies for any position of power (politician, CEO, law enforcement, judicial, medical, educator) must undertake the psychopathy checklist (PCL-R) before being considered qualified.
    i am seeing some common ground here which is nice.

    related reading: Donald Trump outscores Hitler on psychopathic traits test, claims University of Oxford researcher

    i picked that link specifically for it's attention-grabbing headline but, seriously, a search for term associated with these types of tests and trump produces a lot of results and a lot of related conclusions. obviously, it's unscientific (trump himself would surely approve ) but even a quick scan of the typical criteria sounds very familiar when thinking about trump: glib and superficial charm; grandiose (exaggeratedly high) estimation of self; pathological lying; callousness and lack of empathy; poor behavioral controls; sexual promiscuity; impulsivity; etc.

    i mean, come on, it's check mark after check mark

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    #33
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    Yeah it appears very clear to casual observers as well as countless individuals who actually know or have had personal dealings with the guy that he's a sociopathic narcissist. He wouldn't have passed your test. Nor would a great, great involved in high levels of our government, or indeed any government. Unfortunately the sociopaths are attracted to positions of power. We've had great leaders who are not sociopaths, but power is infested with them. Which makes it difficult to imagine a policy to weed out sociopaths from entering office being implemented. But we can dare to dream.
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    #34
    I agree with you Shadowmeister, power corrupts and it certainly does attract some narcissistic sociopathic personality types.
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    #35
    Beware of anyone claiming that someone else is a psychopath without being a trained psychologist personally assessing them (although I am guilty of this myself - I often call Clinton, Obama and many others psychopathic). You can get a pretty good idea based on one's actions (ignore their words) but you can't be truly sure until they take the assessment. I've also had a psychopath tell me that the super intelligent ones could actually beat the exam (can't confirm that yet). But implementing that checklist would be a good start for society and better than nothing.

    Around mid-2016 I was also convinced that Trump was a psychopath - considering he was a successful CEO and running for president.

    BUT (I can hear everyone's eyes rolling) after researching his history and many of his actions, it does appear he has a conscience (the media will not talk about the long list of charitable and selfless deeds he's responsible for)

    I do think he has narcissistic personality disorder - but you can be a narcissist while still having a conscience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeister View Post
    Yeah it appears very clear to casual observers as well as countless individuals who actually know or have had personal dealings with the guy that he's a sociopathic narcissist
    Not true. I've heard from many people that knew him personally before he ran for office and they all have glowing reviews of the man. Remember that the media loved him before he ran for president and threatened the interests of their backers.. He was never considered a racist Nazi beforehand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeister View Post
    He wouldn't have passed your test.
    I would bet $ that he'd test high but not be considered psychopathic.
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    #36
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    Just to make a point... no trained psychologist or psychiatrist will evaluate you as being, or not being a psychopath. Because the word psychopath actually has no clinical definition, and neither does sociopath. They're both informal terms with no current clinically recognised definition.
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    #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGrimez View Post
    Beware of anyone claiming that someone else [has a personality disorder listed in the DSM] without being a trained psychologist personally assessing them
    ...
    I do think he has narcissistic personality disorder - but you can be a narcissist while still having a conscience.
    gotcha, we're all taking notice of you and seeing that you're one to not be trusted.
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    #38
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    Personally I hate this increasing lawyer culture of licensed opinions. The one where you HAVE to say "I'm not a doctor but.." before giving a medical opinion just in case someone's stupid enough to assume you're a doctor. The one where you're not allowed to have an opinion about anything with what essentially amounts to license issued by universities.

    There's nothing wrong with making an argument based on reason and observation that say, trump might well meet the criteria of narcissistic personality disorder. That's not a diagnosis, it's an opinion. And depending on the evidence, it could be a valid and correct opinion.
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    #39
    Quote Originally Posted by JessFR View Post
    Just to make a point... no trained psychologist or psychiatrist will evaluate you as being, or not being a psychopath. Because the word psychopath actually has no clinical definition, and neither does sociopath. They're both informal terms with no current clinically recognised definition.
    Yes they will. That's the point of the PCL-R.
    It's out of 40 points. I forget exactly how many classified you as a psychopath, but it's a very clever test administered over a couple of days iirc.

    Quote Originally Posted by tathra View Post
    gotcha, we're all taking notice of you and seeing that you're one to not be trusted.
    Everyone in this sub-forum is guilty of this. I'm just being honest.

    For eg, based on behavior, I would bet everything I own that Hillary Clinton is a psychopath.
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    #40
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    Ehh, the term is used in some legal contexts. But strictly speaking there is no official diagnosis of psychopathy or sociopathy. They're more informal terms for antisocial and dissocial personality disorder.

    You could make an argument that this is just being pedantic, but the point was about armchair diagnosis. And I'm arguing that arguing someone's a psychopath is already informal because there's no recognized formal condition in mental health called psychopathy anyway.

    It's worth noting that the PCL-R is almost half a century old. I don't remember off the top of my head, but there may have been an official diagnosis of psychopathy at some point that long ago. But if there was there isn't anymore.

    I wouldn't exactly call myself an expert in this, I'm going off a combination of my recollection from prior research and some quick verifying of said recollection with Google just now. So it's likely worth investigating further for greater detail and context. But Im 99.9% sure psychopathy in the name and way we tend to think about it casually, isn't recognized as a diagnosis in just about any major organization of authority in mental health.
    Last edited by JessFR; 14-09-2018 at 13:21.
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    #41
    I can?t comment on the psychological side of this debate but taking from the productive and redistributing to the non productive is a tenant of socialism. One I find particularly egregious. The intrinsic and monetary rewards that occur naturally in a laissez-faire capitalist system has its own rewards and is the least discriminatory as opposed to socialism which is completely discriminatory leaving the individual to hope they will be chosen as a worthy cause for redistribution. Claiming right to someone else?s sweat equity is larceny by conversion.
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    #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spaznot View Post
    Claiming right to someone else?s sweat equity is larceny by conversion.
    i agree. workers should absolutely have control over the fruits of their labor instead of allowing it all to be stolen by the capitalist class that does absolutely nothing to earn it
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    #43
    Hahaha nice! I like what you did there. I agree with you, no one has a right to what you have earned.
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    #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by tathra View Post
    gotcha, we're all taking notice of you and seeing that you're one to not be trusted.
    Trust no one, Agent Scully.


    As for socialism, I like the concept and like to know at least some tax dollar goes back into the infrastructure and services here that I take for granted and would not like to gave a Govt that doesnt do anything for the taxpayers but would prefer everyone else to be totally socialist but not me personally as I am greedy and lazy.




    .
    Last edited by zephyr; 14-09-2018 at 16:12.
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    #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spaznot View Post
    Hahaha nice! I like what you did there. I agree with you, no one has a right to what you have earned.
    Isn't that in itself fairly capitalist though? As soon as you have the concept of property, of heaving wealth in the form of "something" you have the concept of trade, and with the concept of trade you have the concept of a market.
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    #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by JessFR View Post
    Isn't that in itself fairly capitalist though? As soon as you have the concept of property, of heaving wealth in the form of "something" you have the concept of trade, and with the concept of trade you have the concept of a market.
    markets are a totally separate idea. markets will always exist no matter what. markets aren't what capitalism vs anti-capitalism is about, capitalism vs anti-capitalism is about who owns the means of production, ie corporations, factories, anywhere anybody works, whether they should be owned by a single person or the community (whether that "community" is limited to the people who work there or the people in the local community regardless of whether they're employees, is a different discussion).

    money and markets and everything else will still exist without capitalism, as they existed millennia before it, the only thing that changes is whether the workers (or community) get the full production of their labor or whether some individual gets to steal the majority of it off the top simply because they already have a bunch of money.

    investing and rent seeking isn't working and isn't productive, how is it that lazy, elitist slobs get a pass for doing absolutely nothing while the people who actually work get shit all over and told that you have to work to be a productive member of society, something they're already doing? you should be saying that to the lazy fucks whose entire contribution to society is being born into money and never doing a day's work in their entire life.
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    #47
    Venezuelans to Jim Carrey: "Socialism Represents Opression Against the People"
    https://truepundit.com/venezuelans-t...st-the-people/

    Venezuelans Suffering Through The Worst Crisis In The Nation's History Have Responded With Outrage To Actor Jim Carrey's Call To The World To "say Yes To Socialism." In A Column Published Wednesday, Columnist Laureano M?rquez Argued That Carrey Misunderstands The ?repression? Conducted In The Name Of Socialism In Places Like The Latin American Country.

    Marquez, writing for the Venezuelan outlet Runrunes, gives Carrey the benefit of the doubt as an actor with no known education in political science. "Sometimes it seems that Hollywood stars' inability to understand politics is directly proportional to their on-screen talent," he writes. "Reagan was always a very untalented actor, thank God."

    Marquez argues that Carrey is using a definition of socialism that is naive and out of touch with the realities experienced in places like Venezuela, suggesting he believes socialism "is a word that sounds pretty ? the antithesis of selfishness, synonym of concern for others, equal distribution of riches, support for the weakest and their needs, health and education for everyone, etc."

    He goes on to note that dictators like Venezuela?s Nicol?s Maduro use the word ?socialism? to ?hide deep threats ? against what is considered socialism, hiding a purely intolerant and hardcore authoritiarianism, if not an outright dictatorship.? He cites the fact that Maduro?s family and cronies control the limited wealth left in the country, leaving most of the rest of the citizenry eating out of the garbage.

    ?In Venezuela, we have grown to hate the word socialism, it represents oppression against the people, the destruction of a flourishing nation, and the desperation of its citizens,? M?rquez concludes.
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    #48
    [QUOTE=tathra;14406272]except for the US. the US was most prosperous when the top tax rates were 90%

    Sorry but that?s just not accurate. Not logically or historically. And posting a link does not make it truth but here


    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.for...nce-is-in/amp/
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