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    Mumsnet Brings In Tougher Forum Rules 
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    Paralleling changes that we've seen spreading across the internet from here to Reddit to newspaper comments sections in the last few years, Mumsnet has now moved to introduce stricter moderation standards, with the intention of "banning negative generalisations about any group and introducing a policy of zero tolerance on rude or aggressive behaviour."

    Are we entering the era of Internet 3.0 now? These are interesting times for sociologists.


    Mumsnet brings in tougher forum rules after transgender row


    Website with large feminist base concedes to criticism and introduces stricter moderation





    Mumsnet has been forced to introduce tough new rules over the discussion of transgender issues on its forums, after the parenting website found itself at the centre of a cultural battle around trans rights.

    Transgender activists have repeatedly challenged the site for allowing users to post anti-trans content and earlier this year organised a protest against Mumsnet, contacting companies who advertise with the site and threatening to boycott their products.

    Mumsnet has continually defended users? rights to discuss ?changing opinions around gender and sex? but now accepts that it has received criticism ?for allowing posts that some trans people find offensive, even hateful?.

    ?Mumsnet will always stand in solidarity with vulnerable or oppressed minorities,? said founder Justine Roberts. ?Mumsnet is also committed to freedom of speech. Sometimes these two issues come into conflict, rarely more so than in the recent debate about what is acceptable to say, or not to say, about trans people.?

    As a result the site has now published a list of principles spelling out how discussion of transgender issues will be moderated, banning negative generalisations about any group and introducing a policy of zero tolerance on rude or aggressive behaviour towards Mumsnet?s moderation team, who have been tested ?to the absolute limit? by the debate.

    As part of the new policy Mumsnet moderators are now likely to delete potentially ?hurtful? comments that use trans people?s former names, posts which use pronouns they have consciously rejected, or mention the term ?Trans-Identified Male?.

    In return, the Mumsnet moderators are likely to delete terms such as ?cis? or ?Terf? (Trans-exclusionary radical feminist) which will ?make civil debate less likely? on the basis that they are are ?affront? to many feminists.

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    Personally, I tend to think that if you go to a place called mumsnet, you have only yourself to blame if you don't like politically correct insanity taking over.

    There's a reason I tend to call such types "mothers against everything". Which isn't itself a judgement against this transgender issue. It's a generalization on my part. But a well deserved one I think after decades of mothers against gun violence mothers against video game violence mothers against bad language mothers against bullying mothers against alcohol mothers against having too much fun mothers against too little fun. Just seriously fuck that noise.
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    Is it insanity? Or is this just the phase where the melting pot of the entirety of humanity tries to figure out how to use the internet without endless flaming wars? We never evolved a way to deal with so many random encounters with such different people (besides killing them, I guess). I find it pretty fascinating tbh.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CFC View Post
    Is it insanity? Or is this just the phase where the melting pot of the entirety of humanity tries to figure out how to use the internet without endless flaming wars? We never evolved a way to deal with so many random encounters with such different people (besides killing them, I guess). I find it pretty fascinating tbh.
    Sure. In a general sense it is fascinating and you can talk for hours about where the line is and what's OK or not OK and what's too far and what's not. But soon as I see obsessively worrying helicopter mothers getting involved I tend to lose any hope for worthwhile discussion.

    More on topic though, I don't see a problem. Just pretend problems. Private forums can decide how they run. If you don't like it, start your own. When someone comes along and tries to stop you, then I'll agree there's a problem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JessFR View Post
    Personally, I tend to think that if you go to a place called mumsnet, you have only yourself to blame if you don't like politically correct insanity taking over.

    There's a reason I tend to call such types "mothers against everything". Which isn't itself a judgement against this transgender issue. It's a generalization on my part. But a well deserved one I think after decades of mothers against gun violence mothers against video game violence mothers against bad language mothers against bullying mothers against alcohol mothers against having too much fun mothers against too little fun. Just seriously fuck that noise.
    Exactly, people get so offended and "triggered" over everything nowadays, and yes political correctness is taking over in a lot of ways.

    It makes me wonder if these types of people could have ever survived in the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, or early 2000s?

    But it's apparently a parenting forum or forum for mums, so you would basically expect this to happen there.
    Last edited by PriestTheyCalledHim; 14-06-2018 at 23:42.
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    A little off-topic, but my secret visits to the past suggest that indeed I would thrive in 1960s and much of the 1980s. I did survive the 1990s and after... the stuff before is brief and a bit pre-verbal.

    The aliens (non-probing ) also believe that I would like the early 3000s. Unfortunately, they haven't finished my suit yet. (Climate change is real folks).

    OT: the Internet is facing so many challenges. People not giving proper attribution for articles they copypasta, sometimes from apartheid denial sites (sadly it's a thing), just for one example. Are they ashamed, trolling, or do they wish they could write? Who knows? They are fun to watch get busted, tho.

    On a serious note, white supremacists, white nationalists, trolls, conspiracy theorists, and other types who have crawled out of the woodwork, particularly in the last couple of years, are unfortunately plaguing websites. These emboldened keyboard warriors are a fixture on the internet.

    Surely you have seen it, as I have. In other places I post and mod it's prevalent, and unfortunately either you shut the intolerant down or lose everyone else; I've seen both happen. It's a constant headache to get rid of the intolerant, with their screams of censorship and whinging about freedom of speech. On the other hand, I watched a site flooded by these types empty out in under a week.

    There's a non-catchy phrase (imo) that it's one thing to be tolerant. It's another thing to be tolerant of intolerance.

    I think it's going to become a question of responsiveness. The most resilient and powerful group is heard. And unfortunately, incels and many other intolerants have a lot of time and a lot of rage because, well, no one likes them irl and they want to lash out..or something. It's sad, and it's not going away.

    Ime, tolerance is taught irl, not on the internet.
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    To me, it's all about extremes. Which is why I'll happily endorse fairly left wing views one day then rant about liberals the next. I hate the crazy political correct AND the "how dare you censor my right to call out school shooting crisis actors" assholes. Humans just can't seem to get it right. Soon as they hear an idea they like, they just gotta go and take it too far.

    Since this is the issue that started this particular discussion, I don't think it's unreasonable for a transgender person to request to be referred to by their preferred pronoun. That really doesn't seem like something to fight over. It's a small thing, and if you deliberately refuse to do so just out of sheer objection in principle, that seems pretty assholeish to do.

    Insisting I memorize and start using entirely made up pronouns on the other hand, IS going too far. And while I still think mocking such people is just being an asshole. It's too much to expect such a radical change in society for such a small group.

    You gotta draw a line somewhere, and you could talk all day about where that line is, but seems to me most people hate the idea of a line in the middle want it all one way or all the other way. I think it's because people are just psychologically disposed to cluster into groups, and then merge like minded groups for increased power. Then add in the need to fit in to your group, and you wind up in every situation with two mega groups that are entirely opposed to each other and won't compromise whatsoever.
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    Anonymity brings out the worst in some people... and the political situation right now creates a lot of fear, and fear often leads to anger and hatred.
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    Ok. I am going to try to support bl by bringing to the board what I feel would be good contributional matter and not just complain and walk- as per tpd and also TLB.

    Id love to be able to post links and quote effortlessly like some of you do, I can not get links to work as they go to "page not found" and cant focus on copy oaste like I can the original words from blrs.

    So I took a lot of time to read this mumsnet thing.

    Mumsnet isnt about transgender rights and whats acceptable or not discussing with them or about them, its like anywhere else thats having to cope with increasing population on the net and radical societal changes that are not uniform across the world.

    Its a pity issues like this are impacting social networks and while those that visit mumsnet ARE anonymous to the outsider, bear in mind as a community there are groups who have gotten to know each other and would be conversing more as friends.

    A random entry to there could judge whats being said out of context and repeated instances then put pressure on a once relatively chillax place to conform to suit people who don't involve themselves.

    Yes there needs to be updates of rules to bring a varied and growing number of people into mumsnet and also continual updates of what the website is actually for, who its targeting and what subject matter its about.

    As for pronouns, its not realistic to know what everybody wants to be called unless they have a name tag. I get mistaken for a guy on fb, here and elsewhere but im not upset about it and cant relate to anyone who gets mortally offended by a mistake.

    Trolls are everywhere, dont feed them and they eventually go away , malicious trolls should be gotten rid of sooner rather than later .


    I was on a mums forum and it wasnt mumsnet but similar.

    Mums forums are actually brutal, very intolerant, cant discuss mum issues without reports flying simply because you had a caesarian rather than natural birth or didnt breastfeed.

    They are that bad.

    So dont be fooled into thinking a mums website would be all lovely and protective of minorities as they say. Definitely not.

    I got flamed the shit out of as I didnt breastfeed in public as I wasnt comfortable due to sweating breaking out when I did.

    I just responded to a breastfeeding in public thread which was very pro public to the point of madness when really its just a matter of if the kids hungry then just feed it. Then I just thought "this group is shit" and forgot about it.

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    While I've never been to a mother's specific forum, I imagine them being absolutely like zephyr suggests and absolutely not like invegauser suggests.

    I dunno what it is, it seems like to me that the worst things I hate about how women behave socially get magnified once they become parents. I'm talking about sticking their noses where they don't belong, spreading stupid gossip, being judgemental nazis. Forcing unsolicited unwanted help and opinions and judgements on others. There's a reason I don't have many female friends. And mothers just represent the worst of it.

    Again, obviously these are all generalizations. My mother largely isn't like that. She's got her own issues but they aren't these ones thankfully. I've met a few mothers who are absolutely wonderful. But in my experience they're the minority.

    Zephys experience represents exactly what I'd expect. People already tend to suck. And women have their own way in which they especially suck when it comes to social tolerance, and soon as you add in the infuriating self-righteousness people get by having children and having managed to make it 5 years without accidently killing them or something, and it reaches a whole new level.
    Last edited by JessFR; 15-06-2018 at 11:30.
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    ^ Mothers groups are the absolute worst of the worst.

    Their role on the planet is to contain these clusters of people away from everyone else.

    I block anyone who starts the vaccination debate as I dont wanna hear shit about it or get shit for not being a "crunchy" . Wow. If you dont know what that is then think yourself lucky omg.
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    ^^
    Its funny you say that Zeph, I was in the maternity ward after my miscarriage and the things that I heard some mums saying to first time mums really floored me.

    It was a huge thing about whether to breastfeed or not and I thought to myself what happens if you just dont have milk and there is nothing you can do about it?

    Does that make you a bad person because your body refused to produce milk?

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    ^ yes. Officially you are the biggest fail in the cosmos . Wow. That too.

    I had an emergency ca under general and despite the fact I was DYING, I had to wait for a midwife to counsel me that my kid would first taste formula as I would be preoccupied not dying.

    The pressure to be au natural with everything plus not give up work plus have a well behaved kid in public is shit, best off not going to these groups and just figuring it out on your own.


    Sorry about your miscarriage BiTS. Borrow my kid. Shes do naughty!!!!! Aaaahhh
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    Indeed was a shit time for me!
    I have a step daughter who is a handful
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    Some kids just are. I saw an article the other day about some mother who apparently gave her 2 kids a very public timeout in a grocery store when they were misbehaving. And she got all this praise for good parenting and shit. And I just thought to myself "what a bunch of bs". That only worked because those kids actually cooperated with their punishment. What happens when they don't? What happens when they simply WILL NOT stop? What happens when their response to "OK you're having a time out!" is "FUCK YOOOOOU MOOOM"? What can you do? If you don't have the option to just not take them with you, and a lot of people don't, you're out of options except by to just deal with the misbehaving kids and appallingly judgemental adults.

    A lot of parents (and by parents I especially mean mothers) pass judgement on other parents by the behavior of the kids, not even considering that they might not be any better or worse a parent, but simply be unluckier than them with how manageable their kids are. They think their kid is better behaved cause they are simply a better parent. Which is complete bullshit. It's a convenient lie that let's them praise themselves while simultaneously passing judgement on the less fortunate.

    It probably helps that I actually enjoy watching poorly behaved kids. I can't deny that when I see a kid go limp and have to get dragged out of a store by their parent, I have a little moment in my head where I think "yeah! Non violent resistance! Fight the establishment!". Cause well, mom IS their establishment. . Yeah I know it's not very nice for the parents and I'll probably very quickly change my mind if and when they're my kids. But, I really can't say I have much respect for perfectly behaved children. They strike me as tomorrow's sheep. Rule followers and tattle tales. The perfectly behaved kids aren't likely to be the ones that grow up and fight for what they believe in. Who will say no when they see something they can't support. The misbehaved brats will probably be the ones who think for themselves. So, if your kids a handful, don't feel bad.
    Last edited by JessFR; 15-06-2018 at 17:36.
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    Yeah its getting weird as time goes on and theres a lot of parents that seem to need some validation of their awesome parenting skills, some public handlings of tantrums get recorded by parents which is weird, like "hey check out how great I am" rather than deal with the kid.

    Mind you shopping centre tantrums are not that big a deal so dont see what the fuss is about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zephyr View Post
    Yeah its getting weird as time goes on and theres a lot of parents that seem to need some validation of their awesome parenting skills, some public handlings of tantrums get recorded by parents which is weird, like "hey check out how great I am" rather than deal with the kid.

    Mind you shopping centre tantrums are not that big a deal so dont see what the fuss is about.
    Yeah same. Does it REALLY matter if there's a kid being loud and being, well, a kid? Seems like one of those things people hate for no other reason than they feel like they're supposed to. I say thank the kid for relieving the boredom of grocery shopping. Much more interesting watching the little war of the wills go on than waiting in line.
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    Kids go off at the worst of times and idiots film these things going on with other kids and their mums (havent seen a dad one)- get posted on a few local groups. Its not something i like to see so scroll on.

    Kids dont co operate with discipline when they are cranky and tired so when that happens I just get us the hell out of there and dont make eye contact wuth all the gawkers.

    A bunch of uptight opinionated mums is hard enough without added bs from unrelated issues, itll probably just be some other trending thing in the future.


    Not everywhere has cracked down on political correctness, the overkill will swing around eventually .
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    #19
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    Agreed, the PC thing has gotten out of hand in many cases. It's rooted in something benevolent, but some people take it way too far.
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    One persons stance on a group of people can be taken as offensive if it is in any way less than glowing, I am guessing here but all the influx of gender stereotyping and how to raise boys and girls as gotten muddled even to what colour clothes to buy for babies. Also the added influx of how to handle possible transgender kids, theres parents wanting null gender as a thing on birth certificates etc etc.

    This is new, hasnt been a thing at all until the last couple of years so its not like everyone suddrnly is seeing buying trucks for boys as horribly assuming that a barbie for a boy would be just as suitable.

    So in that regard the transgender/ gender role thing can go overboard.

    At bl the same issue could and is a problem ie calling a Trump supporter an idiot etc is actually an insult based on a group of people tbh.

    Basically the "if you can't take it dont dish it" rule of thumb can resolve most things.

    What can't be resolved with an elegant solution are the random lurkers who dont contribute to any forum themselves yet get horribly offended enough to stilt the people in it.

    Mumsnet would be the type of thing a lot of traffic would be transient, kids grow up and it becomes irrelevant so the crackdown wouldnt bother a lot of them enough to change that. They wouldnt stick around that long anyway.
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    #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by zephyr View Post
    At bl the same issue could and is a problem ie calling a Trump supporter an idiot etc is actually an insult based on a group of people tbh.
    That's an interesting point. We've had this discussion on staff regarding CE&P multiple times because certain BLers sharing a "group" political affiliation repeatedly complained that they are a protected group and deserve the same protections as when a slur is used to describe an non-white non-Christian immigrant, for example.

    I'm not sure how other forums would handle it, but this is Current Events and Politics. It's a bit difficult to imagine discussing politics without using terms describing political affiliation. Try it.

    And there is a difference between calling a group of people idiots than stating "you are a libtard SJW cuck". One is about a group, and one is directed at a single person.

    And some people have a strong need to label others. For example, I get called a liberal. I'm not liberal except on some social policy. "I don't care what you do as long as I don't have to pay for it" unless it's good public health policy, like harm reduction.

    The labels are reductive for people who don't quite fit into a pigeonhole, which is most people, but most BLers can live with being mislabeled politically, ime.
    -----
    Wow! This thread has gone off-topic, but in a positive and interesting way except for the fact that BL policy isn't at all the topic here nor is it appropriate, but I don't think OP would be offended about discussing mothers and children as opposed to the issue of challenges in the internet era. Quite the contrary.

    Please continue unless one of my colleagues feels otherwise.
    Last edited by cduggles; 15-06-2018 at 22:23.
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    I dunno if talking about the internet in general or here is really that off topic due to the phrasing of said post

    Paralleling changes that we've seen spreading across the internet from here to Reddit to newspaper comments sections in the last few years, Mumsnet has now moved to introduce stricter moderation standards, with the intention of "banning negative generalisations about any group and introducing a policy of zero tolerance on rude or aggressive behaviour."

    Are we entering the era of Internet 3.0 now? These are interesting times for sociologists.
    "Here" is mentioned, so I digress maybe it is maybe it isnt.


    The problem of clamping down on flavour of the month terminology like listed in OP is that these terms are favoured by those who use them as a fad sometimes. I dont know what "cis" even is and dont really use terms that piss me off personally. I swear a lot.

    The whole "fake news" "fake patiotism" "false analogy" repetitive "slang" does really annoy me because it just sounds robotic for a start, is as boring as "sjw cuck" is - all really banal.


    None of them seem particularly insulting just annoying , the sjw thing is disappearing now thank god. So is snowflake, thats not that bad just also really boring.

    In an area like mumsnet, which having a look is a specific target audience anyway, those terms could just stand out as unfitting . A ban wouldnt have been needed if picked up and dealt with a little more smoothly .

    This particular website has been overseen by a lot of people over the years and has changed and evolved/regressed along with the times and people coming and going.

    What happens happens, the dont like it- leave thing is a good call, dont know what till its gone- too late then too. Having gone through a lot of shit here, seeing the various swings and roundabouts has just highlighted theres much ado about nothing and maybe we should just chillax.
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    ^ I agree.
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