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Thread: Denmark's burka ban will send Muslim women further underground

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    #76
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    For people who like facts:

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    #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by swilow View Post
    I don't especially like these garments but I see no problem in someone wanting to wear what they feel is right for them.
    I'm fine with people wearing what they want, but there are limits to everything. A religion that didn't believe in wearing clothes at all, perhaps wouldn't be met with the same amount of openness. Businesses can force you to wear shirts and shoes, could they force someone to uncover their face? What's the difference?

    For women who say, "it makes me feel closer to God"...fine...but I would ask them why they think that brings them closer to God when it's not something prescribed in the Qur'an. Do you just get to shout religious tolerance when it began as a social construct not a religious construct?

    Also, doesn't society have a responsibility to discourage acts that basically normalize and promote sexism? Why is no one asking why women have to cover themselves and men don't? Why do women have to hide their bodies to feel closer to god, while men can achieve that by other means? When young girls walk down the street and see this kind of thing, what is that doing to their impressionable minds? Even for a young mind, it's not difficult to connect a woman (ONLY women) hiding her body in public with feelings of shame.

    and I again would bring up the point that most women in western countries that wear burka or niqab are either converts going to extremes to seem authentic or/and young Muslims who do not understand or appreciate the struggle older generations of Muslim women had to go through to fight this kind of oppression.
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    #78
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    ^You raise valid points and of course I agree that there are limits to rights.

    People do criticise the culture that gives rise to these sort of oppressive dogmas but the current t political and social climate gives too much allowance for religious expression and isn't tolerant of critics. But I will say that criticising a cultural trope from outside the culture is rather empty and purposeless in being too distant to both understand it and effect much change. The movement for equal rights for women in Islamic countries is going to have to come from within those countries. From here I think we're just throwing stones at glass houses (if I used the saying correctly, I'm not sure ) As I've said though, I don't especially like burkas and what they represent to me.

    Ho do you know most burka wearing women are converts, etc.?
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    #79
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    @swilow

    I've not looked to see if there are actual statistics. Pretty much just going off what I've read in interviews/articles and seen in videos over the years. There are hours of really informative public forums, interviews, news pieces, debates etc on this topic from various perspectives. In theocratic and near theocratic countries, of course, it's not really a choice. What I said is based on western countries and doesn't include the hijab which isn't that invasive imo.

    Criticising a cultural trope from outside the culture isn't purposeless if only for the fact that we are having a discussion about it here and now. It's important to think about these types of things even if you aren't part of the culture, which I assume is why you made the thread. I don't really think we're throwing stones from glass houses either. Women and men are more equal here than they've ever been, and we are constantly looking for ways to get closer and closer to the goal. Normalizing this kind of thing is going in the opposite direction.
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    #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal3volent View Post
    @swilow

    I've not looked to see if there are actual statistics. Pretty much just going off what I've read in interviews/articles and seen in videos over the years. There are hours of really informative public forums, interviews, news pieces, debates etc on this topic from various perspectives. In theocratic and near theocratic countries, of course, it's not really a choice. What I said is based on western countries and doesn't include the hijab which isn't that invasive imo.
    Hmm, it could just be that newer, Western converts are more willing to appear in interviews and videos?

    I still don't quite understand why this would make much difference to the issue, if it is case.

    Criticising a cultural trope from outside the culture isn't purposeless if only for the fact that we are having a discussion about it here and now. It's important to think about these types of things even if you aren't part of the culture, which I assume is why you made the thread. I don't really think we're throwing stones from glass houses either. Women and men are more equal here than they've ever been, and we are constantly looking for ways to get closer and closer to the goal. Normalizing this kind of thing is going in the opposite direction.
    But what is us having this discussion, or the other endless discussions about Islam that appear across the net, really achieving? I agree that it is valuable to have this discussion for our own understanding but I was thinking more along the lines of the cultural superiority on display in passing laws to ban certain garments. But, I appreciate your posts because I wasn't looking at the issues you are raising, and I might need to think more before I come to a conclusion about my stance.

    I would say that simply having cultural exchange with the more liberal west will probably enact some sort of equality movement in currently grossly unequal societies, but I wonder if you can force this upon a society too soon? A bit off topic, but there are always unintended and unexpected consequences when sudden social change occurs.
    Last edited by swilow; 19-06-2018 at 11:50.
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    #81
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    Well unfortunately that is the sad reality of the world. Countries have their sovereignty, and we can't just go in to all of them with tanks and force equality and secularism down their throats. If we've learned anything over the past 20 years, it's that.

    Having these conversations won't change anything, other than maybe opening peoples mind. Changing someone's perspective. Then those people go out in the real world and have a conversation with someone else, and that person does the same thing. And so on.

    on the converts thing, my point is, women from western families who face no actual pressure to cover themselves...may do so willingly and excessively in order to show off their religiosity. They may see it as an expression of their faith, whereas women who were born into it, and pressured from the outside, see it as persecution.
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    #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by PriestTheyCalledHim View Post
    Religion is meant to be private...
    says who?

    you'd have no issue banning the wearing of crucifixes in public? people praying in public? people thanking god in speeches? right?

    Quote Originally Posted by JessFR View Post
    Seems to me what qualified as "shoving a belief down someone's throat" is becoming increasingly broad. Seems to me what it actually means is "you reminded me that belief exists, and I hate that so it feels like it's being shoved down my throat" when in fact all that's happened is someone had the audacity to exist within your field of vision.
    amen.

    it's odd/confusing/ironic/etc. for me to see people who aren't an sjw liberal cucktard like me being triggered so easily

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    #83
    Quote Originally Posted by alasdairm View Post
    says who?

    you'd have no issue banning the wearing of crucifixes in public? people praying in public? people thanking god in speeches? right?

    amen.

    it's odd/confusing/ironic/etc. for me to see people who aren't an sjw liberal cucktard like me being triggered so easily

    alasdair
    Nice assumption. Yes I do have a problem with all of the scenarios you describe. Didn't you read my previous post about how Roman Catholics are worse at doing all the scenarios you described in your post than even very extreme Fundamentalist Christians can be?

    Also, there's a clear separation between church or mosque, temple, Synagogue, etc. and state in most civilised and developed countries.
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    #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by PriestTheyCalledHim View Post
    Nice assumption.
    no assumption. just asking you questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by PriestTheyCalledHim View Post
    Yes I do have a problem with all of the scenarios you describe.
    ok. but you didn't answer the question. should people be banned from wearing crucifixes in public. should sporting figures and actors be banned from thanking god in an acceptance speech?

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    #85
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    What I have a problem with is all these Christians going to other countries on these mission trips feeling like they are doing so much good. Help starts at home. My church tends to keep it that way. I won't volunteer for that shit. I worry about my own home and what they wear in other countries, I don't give a rats ass about.
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    #86
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    ^ Agreed

    To be fair, there are some great religious organizations that are really helping without proselytizing in areas that desperately need it.
    There are many that are arguably coercing people to adopt their religion for things like food. Not okay.
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    #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal3volent View Post
    Well unfortunately that is the sad reality of the world. Countries have their sovereignty, and we can't just go in to all of them with tanks and force equality and secularism down their throats. If we've learned anything over the past 20 years, it's that.

    Having these conversations won't change anything, other than maybe opening peoples mind. Changing someone's perspective. Then those people go out in the real world and have a conversation with someone else, and that person does the same thing. And so on.

    on the converts thing, my point is, women from western families who face no actual pressure to cover themselves...may do so willingly and excessively in order to show off their religiosity. They may see it as an expression of their faith, whereas women who were born into it, and pressured from the outside, see it as persecution.

    Its hard to see the world from the perspective of a woman who is persecuted by their own religion, no doubt they are in any religion, always have been and probably always will be.

    I wouldn't think any religion thats soley based on persecution would survive. I dont think the majority of the sects of Islam are as bad on women as we might think.


    It doesnt make sense, how other societies are run and my friends who are all first generation refugees are not persecuted.

    They ran from death by other muslim groups who just wanted to kill everyone that didnt follow them or Sadam Hussein.

    Its kinda bullshit banning stupid shit like choice of clothing in todays times, after the 60s and 70s with the growing freedom of choices but Denmark is stodgy, traditional and maybe not the country that should take in any more migrants who wear hijab.
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    #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by zephyr View Post
    Its hard to see the world from the perspective of a woman who is persecuted by their own religion, no doubt they are in any religion, always have been and probably always will be.

    I wouldn't think any religion thats soley based on persecution would survive. I dont think the majority of the sects of Islam are as bad on women as we might think.


    It doesnt make sense, how other societies are run and my friends who are all first generation refugees are not persecuted.

    They ran from death by other muslim groups who just wanted to kill everyone that didnt follow them or Sadam Hussein.

    Its kinda bullshit banning stupid shit like choice of clothing in todays times, after the 60s and 70s with the growing freedom of choices but Denmark is stodgy, traditional and maybe not the country that should take in any more migrants who wear hijab.
    sorry but I don't think I understand what you're point is, as it relates to what I said. Are you saying that women living in cultures where they are pressured to wear a burka don't feel persecuted? No ones saying ban it completely, only in certain areas/situations
    Last edited by mal3volent; Yesterday at 22:47.
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    #89
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    on the converts thing, my point is, women from western families who face no actual pressure to cover themselves...may do so willingly and excessively in order to show off their religiosity. They may see it as an expression of their faith, whereas women who were born into it, and pressured from the outside, see it as persecution
    I was addressing this. I wouldnt think of being raised in a muslim country and in areas that tribal culture have traditionally worn hijab or any other type of clothing would necessarily mean they are persecuted, any more or less than various tartans, sari, or other traditional gear.


    Also, its presumptive to assume showing off a religion in a western world, maybe burkas etc just stand out as there arent that many- its normal everyday wear like jeans and shorts here.

    So if thats what you meant then I dunno how persecution or showing off can be judged without asking the individual. My friends don't show off or throw their religion in our faces. Its just clothes, doesnt stop anyone doing, saying or feeling anything so why stop them from wearing clothing they want to?


    But then again, this is the second "I dont understand what youre going on about" response so maybe Ill go to bed.
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    #90
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    Well, it's only the first from me, and it could have been my fault not yours...the miscommunication I mean.

    I've tried to be consistent about not equating the hijab with the burka or niqab. You're right, the hijab is not much different than a scarf or a hood on a sweatshirt. I don't think anyone is even talking about the hijab.

    and when I said that western converts may be showing off their religiosity, I just meant, expressing their religion. Not shoving it down other people's throats. I said something to the effect of, they wear it by choice, to perhaps feel more authentically Muslim. Whereas in cultures where women are tacitly or literally forced to cover their entire bodies...those women probably feel a whole lot of shame and persecution.
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