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An unfortunate cleaning of 4-HO-Met

Doclad

Doclad

Bluelighter
Joined
Mar 17, 2015
Messages
415
Good morning.

Some time ago I acquired a new batch of 4-HO-Met Fumarate that seemed to be somewhat less powerful than the previous one, so I decided to clean it with a little bit of Acetone anhydrous to eliminate any possible soluble cut in it.

Well, the issue is that this cleaning took place in a baso, so to recover the 4-HO-Met I dissolved it in water and poured it into a pre-heated pyrex dish to evaporate the water and recover the substance.
The appearance of the dust has changed a lot, now it is dark brown and somewhat sticky, the water seems to have produced some kind of chemical reaction and I do not know if the product is 4-HO-Met or something else.

Could the water have oxidized 4-HO-Met? would serve the Zinc powder to reduce the oxide of 4-HO-Met to original 4-HO-Met as would be done with DMT oxide and DMT?


DocLad
 
Water won't oxidize 4-HO-MET, but air will, especially if it's heated. Since phenols produce quite complex oxidation products, I don't think you would benefit from zinc. Your only option is to clean it again, but this time evaporate it in an inert atmosphere like argon or nitrogen. If you don't have that option, buy new 4-HO-MET. In any case, you seem to have pretty much charred the substance which is very bad news in organic chemistry. Any time I had my product turn into a brown/black goo, it was time to discard it and cleaning the vessel was usually a pain in the ass.
 
Agree.

Clean it again? Will these new carbonized substances be soluble in anhydrous Acetone or in another solvent?


DocLad
 
I've had certain tryptamines oxidize from improper storage (4-AcO-DMT was one of the main candidates iirc) and it was still very active. I wouldn't be overly concerned about the change in appearance.
 
Wasn't there some scuttlebutt several years ago about 4-AcO-DET turning into a weird sludge when stored at room temperature conditions? But it turned out to still be active, even if a bit gross-looking, IIRC.
 
Likely 4-AcO-DMT, though I'm sure it has happened with other analogs. I believe quite a few vendors were catching flak for sending out dark product, resulting in degraded 4-AcO-DMT sales for a while.
 
Yes, I really doubt that 4-ho-met has been carbonized. I think that would only happen at high temperatures due to pyrolysis, am I right? Not the case, the water with the 4-ho-met solution did not exceed 70?C. I think it has rusted and that's why it has darkened and its appearance is more sticky.


DocLad
 
Not pyrolysis. Phenols oxidize in oxygen even at room temperature. Heating them will only speed up the process. That said I've used darkened solutions of 4-HO-MET and I never noticed any drop in potency.

4-acetyl analogues should be fairly resistant to oxidation because the phenolic group is protected with an acetyl group. However, the acetyl group can easily come off in acidic or basic conditions, so that has to be kept in mind. I've had 4-AcO-MET in solution for several weeks and I haven't noticed any coloration due to oxidation even though it's kept at room temperature in a small darkened glass bottle and is opened frequently allowing fresh air to pass in, I also don't store it in an inert atmosphere.
 
belligerent drunk said:
Not pyrolysis. Phenols oxidize in oxygen even at room temperature. Heating them will only speed up the process. That said I've used darkened solutions of 4-HO-MET and I never noticed any drop in potency.

4-acetyl analogues should be fairly resistant to oxidation because the phenolic group is protected with an acetyl group. However, the acetyl group can easily come off in acidic or basic conditions, so that has to be kept in mind. I've had 4-AcO-MET in solution for several weeks and I haven't noticed any coloration due to oxidation even though it's kept at room temperature in a small darkened glass bottle and is opened frequently allowing fresh air to pass in, I also don't store it in an inert atmosphere.
Click to expand...

Oxidation is the reason why I had opened this thread. Would not zinc dust be a good reducer to convert the oxides to 4-ho-met again?

You mentioned the carbonization of the product, I understood that you refer to it being scorched/burned due to high temperatures. Have I misunderstood you?


DocLad
 
Firstly, I never mentioned carbonization. Pyrolysis requires very high temperatures and a severe lack of oxygen. Organic compounds prone to oxidation usually start forming poorly defined polycyclic aromatic compounds and other condensation products well before the point of pyrolysis, especially in a rich oxygen atmosphere.

Since the oxidation products of 4-HO-MET would be very different from just the corresponding ketone - I don't think 4-hydroxyindole is even capable of forming a stable ketone - and would condense really quickly to completely different compounds, reducing with zinc would be pointless. Typically if you want to reduce a carbonyl compound to the corresponding alcohol, you want to use sodium tetraborate, which works great at reducing ketones and aldehydes.
 
belligerent drunk said:
Water won't oxidize 4-HO-MET, but air will, especially if it's heated. Since phenols produce quite complex oxidation products, I don't think you would benefit from zinc. Your only option is to clean it again, but this time evaporate it in an inert atmosphere like argon or nitrogen. If you don't have that option, buy new 4-HO-MET. In any case, you seem to have pretty much charred the substance which is very bad news in organic chemistry. Any time I had my product turn into a brown/black goo, it was time to discard it and cleaning the vessel was usually a pain in the ass.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info.

I use the google translator, the phrase I have highlighted in bold translates it as "carbonized compound". Sorry for the confusion.

I think I understand what you say, although I must admit that your knowledge is much superior to mine and there are some points that I can not understand because I need to know more.
I can send a sample to EC to see if it's still 4-ho-Met.

Thanks, again.


DocLad
 
Yes, that bolded quote does actually say that you would have carbonized your substance, my bad. Poor wording on my part.

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask. There are at least 2 more regular posters in this subforum who know organic chemistry very well and have tons of experience with synthesis.

I honestly don't think it's worth the bother to test if it's still 4-HO-MET, because it certainly does contain some and what the impurities precisely are isn't even that important - I don't think you can even really determine what they are if they are as I suspect self-condensation products of oxidized 4-HO-MET.

What I would do is just test the goo for potency. I don't imagine you can snort it, so you'll have to take it either orally or rectally (I prefer rectal, very good ROA IMO); IV or IM is definitely out of the question. Dissolve in water at a precise concentration and see how strongly it affects you.
 
belligerent drunk said:
Yes, that bolded quote does actually say that you would have carbonized your substance, my bad. Poor wording on my part.

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask. There are at least 2 more regular posters in this subforum who know organic chemistry very well and have tons of experience with synthesis.

I honestly don't think it's worth the bother to test if it's still 4-HO-MET, because it certainly does contain some and what the impurities precisely are isn't even that important - I don't think you can even really determine what they are if they are as I suspect self-condensation products of oxidized 4-HO-MET.

What I would do is just test the goo for potency. I don't imagine you can snort it, so you'll have to take it either orally or rectally (I prefer rectal, very good ROA IMO); IV or IM is definitely out of the question. Dissolve in water at a precise concentration and see how strongly it affects you.
Click to expand...

I'll try it rectally. 10mg must be quite powerful without tolerance, right?
At least I will know if I have a quality product after all.


DocLad
 
Yes, I personally usually start with 15 mg (also plugged), but I also like my trips rather strong.
 
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