Suboxone not blocking opiates.

[dangermouse7831]

Does anyone else find that Suboxone doesn't block the effects of Heroin?

When I first started taking Heroin, I had a small supply of Suboxone, and found that even 4 mg would stop me getting high for a few days. Was frustrating at times. That was 2015.

Now I've been on Suboxone for 6 months, on doses as high as 28mg a day.

Stupidly, I bought some Heroin and the experimenter in me tried it while on 12mg Suboxone (insufflated) and I got a rush then a pretty normal Heroin high. At this point I had not missed a single Suboxone dose in 6 months.

I upped my Suboxone to 20mg for a few weeks and then tested insufflated Heroin again. Slightly less rush but still got VERY high.

I'm not using Fentanyl dope. I'm just using strong Heroin. I know what Fentanyl feels like compared with smack and it's definitely Heroin.

Methadone was similar. Until I was on 100mg methadone anyway. At 100mg it blocked H for days. Whereas at 80mg it potentiated it.

I'm back on just Suboxone now as I need to travel. Was a bumpy few days getting used to it but not unmanageable.

Does anyone else have the same experience? I thought (and my earlier tests correlated) that bupe would block Heroin, but it doesn't seem to. I know the bupe is real as I get it on prescription from an Australian Pharmacy. It also stops me withdrawing.

 

[mostly-human]

If your "strong heroin" refers to the stuff sold (at least in melbourne) as "pure" and usually sold by point (although obviously can buy grams, etc). But let's say this stuff is always a different price than say "market heroin" even if it's "good market".

I've been around Melbourne heroin for nearly 20 years. This stuff isn't pure heroin. It's not heroin. I don't think it's fent as it lasts too long, but it's not heroin. It may (sometimes?) have heroin cut into it as well, but whatever it is that cuts through suboxone is definitely not heroin.

I also used to not be able to shoot heroin on sub, unless I shot a ridiculous amount. But this stuff the last few years been sold as "pure" cuts straight through sub. But whatever it is, it's not heroin. I've even talked to my prescribing (methadone) doctor about it and how it shows in urine screens; again it doesn't show positive for specifically 'heroin' (although it will show on a screen). Anyway - I agree it's not fent, or at least - not only fent. But it's quite different to heroin.

Another thing, I've seen people drop from this stuff. And they'll be people who regularly use 0.25-0.5g/day of heroin - so not a huge habit, but considerable - and they shoot 50mg of this "pure" and OD - that's not 50mg of heroin, that just won't happen. Sure, you'd maybe get sick or something if it was too strong. But if you're not on anything else (benzos etc) 50mg of even pure heroin shouldn't drop a regular user with decent tolerance.

Also - once you start using it, your tolerance becomes crazy - to everything.

 

[L3inad]

@dangermouse.

That is very odd. Regardless of what the other opiate you're taking, buprenorphine in subutex should be blocking it almost completely at the doses you're on.
You can of course 'beat' the buprenorphine by taking more and more H or what have you, sheer concentration of other opiates in your system will beat the binding affinity of buprenorphine eventually.

That said, you mention that methadone was able to block other opiates for you makes me wonder if its just a perception thing. Methadone doesn't have the 'blocking' ability of crazy receptor affinity that buprenorphine has. So other opiates will still work but of course methadone is just so damn strong you could argue its hard to feel anything else ontop of your methadone.

Pharmacologically (hehe is that a word?) your experience doesn't make sense. Doesn't mean its not happening but it shouldn't =P

 

[dangermouse7831]

In regards to the Heroin I use, I can't go into much detail... It is marketed as high purity and the price reflects as such. The product has mostly been pretty much the same over the years. The stuff I took a few weeks back is identical (as in same batch) to what I was using when I inducted onto subs last year. It only took about 50-60mg insufflated to overpower the bupe. After a few weeks I was seeing my dose escalate though and made the decision to get back off.

I know it's not Fentanyl as I've bought Fentanyl a few times and the high is very different to Heroin. It doesn't give me anywhere near the same euphoria, and doesn't last long before I need to redose. If it's not Heroin though, then I've been using whatever it is my entire Heroin career (after moving on from oxycodone). At my peak I was using 1-2 grams a day (prior to quitting) if that makes a difference.

Maybe that explains why my bupe transition was so hard. Everything I read online indicates you wait for withdrawal, take 4mg of bupe, and feel better an hour or so later. It took me 3 days of 20mg a day to stop my withdrawals, and a good 4-5 days to feel well enough to work.

 

[dangermouse7831]

@dangermouse.
That said, you mention that methadone was able to block other opiates for you makes me wonder if its just a perception thing. Methadone doesn't have the 'blocking' ability of crazy receptor affinity that buprenorphine has. So other opiates will still work but of course methadone is just so damn strong you could argue its hard to feel anything else ontop of your methadone.

Sorry, didn't respond to this. My understanding is that when the methadone dose is high enough (60mg+ for most) then other opiates no longer work properly. Probably a tolerance thing but either way, at 100mg methadone other opiates stopped working for me, and for days, I was about to pull my hair out (I had already decided methadone wasn't for me and wanted off of it at this point).

 

[L3inad]

Sorry, didn't respond to this. My understanding is that when the methadone dose is high enough (60mg+ for most) then other opiates no longer work properly. Probably a tolerance thing but either way, at 100mg methadone other opiates stopped working for me, and for days, I was about to pull my hair out (I had already decided methadone wasn't for me and wanted off of it at this point).

Sort of, methadone will always have to compete with other opiates in your system as its just a normal agonist like the heroin or oxy, with a decent affinity though. But it doesn't saturate and your opiate receptors like bupe though, so you can actually always use ontop of done.

The thing about bupe is its a partial agonist (as in will only 'partially' activate the receptor) and in most people you reach receptor saturation (eg. all available fun opiate receptors have bupe bound to them) at a bit over 2mg personally. Which means after taking 2mg or so of bupe, it SHOULD in theory almost completely block any other opiate in your system (bupe has much higher binding affinity than anything else) and the high will be much the same for 20mg of bupe as it is for say 5mg. After you've hit receptor saturation thats as high as you can get - which makes bupe great for maintenance. From memory health professionals consider 5mg to be saturation, so they always want you to be taking at least that much bupe so its impossible for you to use ontop of it and still get high.

You my friend, seem to be an exception to this rule. And I'll be fucked if I know why lol

Bupe is crazy interesting for its pharmacology. While it is only a partial agonist it has a metabolite (norbupe) that is a full agonist. Which means, if you take bupe, but not enough to saturate your receptors (say 1mg) then you get a lil high from the bupe and your body metabolizes it to norbupe (full agonist) and you get a 'second kick' so to speak.

Its pretty neat, without a tolerance 1mg of bupe makes me so high I spew but if I take 2mg it saturates and the norbupe cant do anything, so I actually get higher off 1mg than 2mg. Weird.