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  • P&S Moderators: Xorkoth | Madness

I?m a sinner worthy of damnation

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I mean of course there's no proof (yet). Just, statistically speaking, unless you don't believe in what we've discovered about the immense size of the universe, it's nearly certain that life exists elsewhere. It's also nearly impossible that we would have any communication with some other species advanced enough to communicate back, because of the time restraint of the speed of light and the fact that an advanced civilization might only last a certain amount of time, and may have occurred millions of years ago and is already gone. Of course we don't have proof, we only just managed to send a probe to the edge of our own solar system, still a tremendous distance from even the very closest star. Saying that the fact that we haven't found proof of it is proof that we're alone in the universe is like saying "I live in a box, I've never looked outside the box, therefore nothing exists outside the box".

Plus, why would god create ALL that space, and ALL those stars, and ALL those planets, if he only put life in one little place? Is it necessary for you believe that we're unique in the universe, that there is no other life, for you to have faith in god? Why can't it be both?
 
When Adam an Eve where created God put the tree of good and evil there to test them. He made us in His image. Not robots where He could push a bottom and we could do what He wanted. He gave us the free will He has.

We failed but we where supposed to build a beautiful uncover with His help.

I believe it was supposed to be started here and broaden out. But we failed and sin has changed everything we were meant to do.
 
Ah I see, so we were supposed to eventually inhabit the rest of the universe, but we fucked up? Or hey, maybe we didn't fuck up and we're on the way? We're closer than ever to be able to colonize Mars. We finally sent a spacecraft outside the edge of the solar system. Technology is improving all the time, and how else would we spread across space? Maybe this is just growing pains, what we're experiencing right now. One thing's for sure, viewing myself as a filthy sinner doesn't do me any good. When I've done bad things in my life, I've known they were bad, and over time I have changed because I understand what I need to do to be a good person. Instead of the fear of eternal damnation, or pissing off an angry god, I do good things because it's obviously the right thing to do. It feels healthier that way to me.
 
Ah I see, so we were supposed to eventually inhabit the rest of the universe, but we fucked up? Or hey, maybe we didn't fuck up and we're on the way? We're closer than ever to be able to colonize Mars. We finally sent a spacecraft outside the edge of the solar system. Technology is improving all the time, and how else would we spread across space? Maybe this is just growing pains, what we're experiencing right now. One thing's for sure, viewing myself as a filthy sinner doesn't do me any good. When I've done bad things in my life, I've known they were bad, and over time I have changed because I understand what I need to do to be a good person. Instead of the fear of eternal damnation, or pissing off an angry god, I do good things because it's obviously the right thing to do. It feels healthier that way to me.

When I read this ^^ it reads as good news to me.

We haven't killed ourselves yet and there is hope for us getting off the planet and expanding humanity across the universe. Personally I would have hoped we moved faster but WE aren't in any kind of agreement that we want to survive and expand humanity yet. A lot of us are still waiting for some kind of outside force to jump up and guide us. Maybe the good news Jesus was bringing was exactly that, we are still on course, despite it not being a really good one, and we can change our course because humanity has free will.

The single understandable thing I do take from God is love. Unconditional, unrelenting, undeniable love. Perfect love. When I don't cloud God's love with my own judgment or confuse your judgment as being God's it helps me see my path a lot clearer. To think like God I need to always be in a state of love toward the person I'm interacting with, not really easy at first but it smooths out overtime and just about the time I'm dead I'll have it down pat.

It's understandable none of us will ever hit perfection during our short lifetimes here. We barely have time to find our place on this planet under such a competative world view, we should spend it focused on improving ourselves and outwardly improving our surroundings, so those that come behind us will be able to stand on our shoulders and see further then we ever dared too.

The story and teachings of Jesus I have used to be the guide to my life, I don't pause at all to denounce the Jewish worship of their hate filled diety as not at all what Jesus meant when he said father. Perhaps the tiny ruling class of Jewish scribes that were the only ones who could read and write decided to write somebullshit and said it came from God? When you realize you absolutely cannot be without doubt it gets a lot easier to see the bullshit. Now you have to learn how to tell truth from fiction and your only guide can be the holy spirit because everything else is suspect.

Try not to think about that when you go to sleep at night because it will keep you up.

All the help you need coming from a Christian perspective is clearly in the new testament. The challenge of Christianity is letting go of the law and actually following the spirit. The in-ability to do this and stay bound to the law out of fear of failure is the current place the 'church' finds itself. Stuck upholding laws and missing the guidance of the spirit makes churches die exactly as scripture says the law will bring death.

Church should be the funnest place on earth, where man pauses for a moment in his global striving to celebrate with a loving diety. Rules are never fun, go figure.
 
. To clear up confusion only the wise will be able to discern what I was trying to say. .

I dunno, that feels like a copout tbph mate. :\

It seemed like you were saying that jesus or the Christian god is the source of morality. That's the god that murders and tortures people, is jealous, homophobic, misogynistic , etc. Also, the god that sacrificed his relatively peace loving son. That god is confused and totally amoral and the source of much pain, confusion and suffering. There really is no morality there, at least a consistent one.
 
No, I really don't miss the point of the Jewish mythology and it's need for validation.
Read it like you never read it before with no preconceived plots or motives, as if you were just born.

Archeology and history both confirm many accounts in this so called Jewish myth.
 
Archeology and history both confirm many accounts in this so called Jewish myth.

Also, archaeology and other natural sciences refute pretty much everything written in the Bible that describes the world's history, astronomy, and other such disciplines. That is to say, the picture of the world in the Bible is completely wrong - curious is also the fact that it is consistent with the world picture on the level of natural sciences at the time the Bible was written, which is only logical... because it's made up by people of that time period.

Yeah, it's lucky Earth ended up here. But the fact that it DID end up here is the reason life emerged on it. If it hadn't, life would have emerged somewhere else instead and people might be debating whether or not the precise position of that planet was existence of god.

(my bolded part) Yeah, that's a very good point. One comment: since it's extremely likely that there are other independently evolved* lifeforms that have either existed in the past or co-exist with us, it's likely that at least one more civilization has pondered the same questions as us.

*important to distinguish between evolution and spontaneous life creation from non-living chemical substances, c.f panspermia. The basic concept is that life can travel between planets on asteroids and other such bodies, meaning that more resistant organisms (bacteria or especially archaea; any extremophile) can go from one planet to another, and if the destination planet happens to be habitable, start living there, kicking off a new tree of life by evolving independently. Such a planet would have perhaps very different organisms from the first planet, perhaps even allowing the evolution of a separate civilization or two, but they would also share a branch of their mutual tree of life.

It's nice to think we're unique, it makes us feel important to think that, but it's more freeing to realize we're not, for me.

(my bolded part) Exactly!
 
Even if it wasn't ever human sacrifices (and I think you're reaching with that - also, what about the story of Moses where Jesus sent the angel of death to kill every firstborn son of the Egyptians in vengeance for enslaving the Israelites? ?

Yahweh sent an angel of death because Phar'aoh (king of Egypt) refuse to release his people. Finally, after the the 10th warning, he stubbornly released them.
 
^That is precisely what xorkoth said.
 
^^^The King got what was coming to him. If your family was held hostage, raped etc. you would have done the same. Get over it.
 
^Why so aggressive?

Do you mean that anyone would send plagues to the captors of one's chosen people? I don't know about that, but your brutal old testament tyrant sure did. :| It's almost like the 10 commandments are only intended to be followed some of the time. Weird.
 
Also, archaeology and other natural sciences refute pretty much everything written in the Bible that describes the world's history, astronomy, and other such disciplines.

Prove it, I bet you can't. Something tells me you know very little history.
 
Prove it, I bet you can't. Something tells me you know very little history.

No, you're trolling if you think he needs to prove shit. You made a statement. He disagreed, the burden of proof is on you to substantiate your original claim.

And good luck, given the nonsense you're peddling :|
 
^^^The King got what was coming to him. If your family was held hostage, raped etc. you would have done the same. Get over it.

But it wasn't just the pharaoh (the word for king in ancient Egypt) who had his firstborn son killed by god. It was every single firstborn son in the entire nation of Egypt. All those innocent children, murdered by god for revenge. It's things like this that are why, if you claim to follow Jesus, you have to disregard the old testament except as a history to put the new testament/Jesus' life and teachings into context.

Prove it, I bet you can't. Something tells me you know very little history.

For some so interested in the holy spirit and Jesus, you're really being quite aggressive and unpleasant.

Anyway I see little point in continuing to engage you in this discussion, as myself and others have taken time to write out thoughtful responses and you've just seemingly ignored them entirely and replied with one-liners that don't even always have anything to do with what you're replying to. Oh well.
 
I dont believe that sinning is actually failing at all, the biblical tale of the garden of eden basically just gave an example of not being perfect.

People go into temptation all the time, its no big deal. To be honest being surrounded by temptation and resisting it doesnt sound like a garden of eden paradise to me, no fun at all. Maybe just "Oi God, Im hungry and I am going to eat this apple here and not bullshit about it thanks" would be fine.



And on that whole galaxy thing, we exist here because in these conditions what else was meant to happen? Its not by design, we were caused by the conditions prevailing, no one creayed the conditions just so we could exist. And we created god, god doesnt exist without anyone believing in him.

So if you believe he exists then he does.
 
Why would an all knowing, all wise and loving God require us to worship him at all? It's such a retarded concept.

Look at who's talking. The the clay trying to tell the potter what to do and how to feel- . . .you ingrate!!
 
No, you're trolling if you think he needs to prove shit. You made a statement. He disagreed, the burden of proof is on you to substantiate your original claim.
Are you feeling a little uncomfortable? You should. I've already substantiated my statements check the thread. Now it's his time to "put up" . . .
 
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Imagine I was able create an intelligent robot to serve and please me.. most people would consider that pretty damn creepy but to create intelligent beings with feelings and emotions and then expect them to worship me or suffer the consequences of Hell for daring to do otherwise is way beyond sick.

Look at who's talking. The the clay trying to tell the potter what to do and how to feel- . . .you ingrate!!

That's pretty obnoxious. I don't consider myself to be an ingrate at all. I marvel at the wonders of creation, the exquisitely beautiful fish and insect life, the majestic beauty of cats, the overwhelming and abundant diversity of plant and animal species on this planet, so many of which we haven't even discovered yet. I just don't happen to believe that a GOD who created all that could be anything like the monster that is portrayed in the bible and it is YOU who insult the most high God by accepting such a portrayal of "Him" and then worshipping that.
God gave you eyes to see and a brain to think. You came into this world naked. If this holy book was so crucial to our existence he would have bibles growing on trees or placed inside your mother's womb.
You bible believers are like musicians who steadfastly refuse to play anything other than the music that has been written down. Those aren't real musicians at all. Real musicians play from the soul, not from an instruction manual.
 
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If god exists, hes not an idiot and sees all. The whole worship him thing is made up. Just live the best you can .

Cherubs, chillax man. Its a conversation not a debate. You dont win anything.
 
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