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Thread: Given 2C-T-7's dubious safety profile, why do people still do it?

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    Given 2C-T-7's dubious safety profile, why do people still do it? 
    #1
    Reading the death reports on erowid are seriously chilling, stuff of the worst nightmares of any psychonaut (falling into a psychedelic violent rage, eyes rolling back, one guy screaming "I don't want to die" in his last moments, coroners still unable to determine mechanism of death).

    There are so many 2C's, yet I still read of people experimenting with this substance on this board and elsewhere. Is there something so special about this one particular? Does it offer something other 2C's do not?
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    #2
    It seems the deaths are from high doses. I have heard this compound can create intense hallucination that you can not notice are hallucinations making them more delusions and delerium vs hallucinations. 2C generally have a lot of physical tension and I would never consider safe to take in a high dose. Out of all the use and 3 deaths from overdoses doesn't make it a dangerous compound, but one with inherited risks
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    #3
    Bluelighter
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    In moderate doses are just half dozen magical. Just don?t go for superheroic dosages
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    #4
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    The deaths are all from snorting it and/or combining it with MDMA, in high dosages in either case. T-7 seems like a really magical drug for many people and from reports it is among the most majestically visual psychedelics. I've tried it a few times and never really broken through to that sort of place, myself... I prefer 2C-T-2. But if used responsibly, T-7 is a perfectly good drug.
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    #5
    I used to wonder the same thing. Eventually, it occurred to me to separate the trainwrecks from the glowing experiences based on route of administration and dosage. The serious health risks (and they are truly horrifying) most all come from insufflation. The rest come from unsafe drug combinations and heavy dosages. I couldn't find nearly any serious adverse reactions from oral dosages in the common range, and that also happens to be where the vast majority of glowing experiences were. [Exception: people looking for stunning visuals often preferred risky ROAs, but there are plenty of safer drugs for that IMO.]

    The way I see it now, reasonable oral doses (not in combination) don't seem all that risky in terms of one's health. That said, the response to a given dosage seems especially erratic with this drug, which is pretty concerning to me at least.

    Like Xorkoth, I vastly prefer 2C-T-2, but I know many people prefer 2C-T-7.
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    #6
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    Yeah good point about the dose response curve, it seems like the appropriate dosage is all over the place. Some people say they need up to even 70mg to really get going, while I have also seen reports of powerful experiences at 20mg. Personally, around 40mg is pretty good, even though I can't seem to break through to anything. If you want to try this, I recommend starting low and working your way up to find the dosage that works for you. Seems like there are a variety of metabolic factors that make the appropriate dose range more variable between individuals than with most drugs.
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    #7
    Its an MAOI, IIRC. And yes, correct, the deaths are often due to insufflation or other non-oral manner of dosing. I've never had it, but from its pharmacology and history, 'tis one to be careful with. Starting low and slowly running up, like Doc Sasha did when he blessed the world with his lifetime, may he rest in eternal ++++++++++ (four just isn't enough for His afterlife. Hell no++++)

    Sasha Shulgin carefully ran up his dosages of anything new, from TINY sub-milligram quantities, and then worked up, when working with completely new inventions, gods if any exist, heap blessings upon his soul, that way anything horrid (just think of the likes of 5-MeO-Pyr=T for example, if he'd carelessly just whacked 10mg in a pipe, or even more. Even if it does take you 70mg to get off, remember, you can ALWAYS take more of a drug, assuming you possess more to take, but you cannot just un-take it. Once it's in, its in, and you buckle down for the ride, whatever is coming to you, it IS coming, like it or not. Save for the likes of plasmapheresis, dialysis, (which I'm not sure are effective, especially given the stuff is already in the CNS) in hospitals, you can't get things OUT of your body. Not drugs anyway. The one exception might be fingers down throat to barf up a just-swallowed tablet. But a blotter? not a chance. Not a chance in hell.

    Careful and slow, beats corpse and fast every time. Unless your a necrophiliac.
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    #8
    All of these points are totally valid, I guess just after reading about these awful happenings, I don't think I'd be able to take the substance myself without thinking about those horrible deaths, the possibility of it happening, and the semi-inexplicable nature of those situations. It would sort of jinx the experience, the thought of it always lingering in the back of your head.

    But again, is there something so special about it? There are literally dozens of 2C's that all seem to produce relatively quite similar experiences, why not just have the peace of mind with a different substance?

    A lot of 2C's are very safe, I've read stories of people accidentally consuming 250mg+ of 2C-B and aside from it being an absolute rollercoaster, it was entirely physically safe.
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    #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Hilopsilo View Post
    But again, is there something so special about it? There are literally dozens of 2C's that all seem to produce relatively quite similar experiences, why not just have the peace of mind with a different substance.
    It is a stretch to say that all the 2C's produce a "relatively quite similar" experience; indeed there is a huge variety of effects within this class.

    Quoting myself from another thread:
    * 2C-B, 2C-C and 2C-D are generally considered the more forgiving ones with the shortest half-lives, making them ideal beginner psychedelics. 2C-I probably isn't too harsh either, although it lasts longer and is often considered more stimulating.
    * 2C-T-2 and 2C-T-7 are said to produce the most stunning visuals with a relatively clear headspace, albeit at the cost of significant nausea, and the risk of a physically dangerous overdose.
    * 2C-E produces intense tactile sensations and a very intense headspace (I have taken 2C-E twice now, once at 25 and once 20 mg, and both times I barely remember anything about the normal open eye visuals because I was so blown away by the headspace / CEV's), with an LSD-like duration. 2C-P is probably closest to 2C-E, except the duration is even longer.
    * 2C-G is not particularly noteworthy for its intensity, but the duration truly stands out, with trips easily lasting as long as those on DOC/DOB/DOI.
    * 2C-B-FLY has been reported to be more on the mellow and entactogenic side a la 2C-C or 2C-B, although the duration is similar to LSD. The elderly Shulgins loved it, although some users found it so mellow as to be almost underwhelming. I personally just recently got to try it, and have to say I really enjoyed it, much more so than 2C-C.
    * there's also the 5-EtO versions of some 2C's, which exhibit a greatly extended duration of action, however these haven't been explored all that much (after all, the main idea behind the 2C's was probably that Shulgin was trying to make a psychedelic of decent potency, but without the insane duration of the DOx family)

    As for whether 2C-T-7 is worth the risk... well, I'd certainly try to be extremely careful with the dose if I were to use it. Carefully titrate up to an acceptable level, and probably avoid snorting it altogether. If 35mg insufflated really was all it took to kill the guy in Oklahoma 18 years ago, this is probably a substance that should be treated with the same level of caution as 25I-NBOMe, and probably not be ingested by the average psychonaut.

    On the other hand, Shulgin did consider both 2C-T-2 and 2C-T-7 to be worthy of being listed among the "magical half-dozen" of phenylethylamines, and he also held 2C-T-4 and 2C-T-21 in high regard, so it looks like there is something special to these 4-alkylthio-substituted compounds.
    I guess it is similar to how some people choose to engage in sports with a high risk of debilitating physical injury or death, and I can understand if they wish to do so, as long as they're not being being reckless idiots about it.

    All in all, I can partially agree with part of your post (that 2C-T-7 doesn't exactly have the most appealing risk-to-reward ratio as far as psychedelics go), and strongly disagree with the other (2C-B may be an amazing substance, but sometimes you want something more mentally intense and long-lasting, like 2C-E).
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    #10
    Is it more dangerous than nbome? Because people do nbome too, knowing it is nbome and that there are some unexplained deaths from it.

    I don't understand how someone can take a potentially lethal psychedelic and not get a badtrip from knowing it might kill them though I just wouldn't be able to enjoy that kind of drug, even if the effects were nice
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    #11
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    Yeah gonna echo Hodor, the 2Cs do not produce relatively the same experience. Each is unique, and some are extremely unique and unlike anything else (2C-E for example). The 2C-T-Xs are unique from the others. Apparently 2C-T-7, for some, produces the most complex and beautiful visuals of anything, and a great headspace.
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    #12
    Bluelighter Help?!?!'s Avatar
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    It is a truly amazing psychedelic! Really though the key is simple, even if something is dangerous if it is used with proper care and technique is it dangerous? If someone uses something carelessly and dies, was it really dangerous or was it Darwinism at work? These are heavy questions but valid nonetheless... If proper care and technique is used with something that is potent most things really aren't that dangerous yet most people won't take the time to properly research and know what they need to do, this is their fault, not the chemicals.... Nowadays you can find information about any chemical as long as it isn't plain new, even then you can try getting reference data from closer counterparts and use shulgin style dosing to find the proper dose. It's just most are unwilling to do so... That's their fault not the chemicals. Right?
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    #13
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    Ive got a bit of 2ct7 and 2ct2 wrapped up just waiting for a rainy day... probably when I am retired in like 30 years...
    I have always remembered that when you use it within the oral dosage range, and only take it by mouth very little negative reactions have occurred aside from the normal 2C body load issues.
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    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Help?!?! View Post
    It is a truly amazing psychedelic! Really though the key is simple, even if something is dangerous if it is used with proper care and technique is it dangerous? If someone uses something carelessly and dies, was it really dangerous or was it Darwinism at work? These are heavy questions but valid nonetheless... If proper care and technique is used with something that is potent most things really aren't that dangerous yet most people won't take the time to properly research and know what they need to do, this is their fault, not the chemicals.... Nowadays you can find information about any chemical as long as it isn't plain new, even then you can try getting reference data from closer counterparts and use shulgin style dosing to find the proper dose. It's just most are unwilling to do so... That's their fault not the chemicals. Right?
    Never did I try to "blame" the chemical anywhere here. It does not have feelings to hurt or offense to take (this is starting to sound awfully like the gun debate in the state right now lol). Not really a matter of if anyone "should" do anything, I'm curious as to why. All I was trying to do here is understand the reasoning as to why people still experiment with it given some (very few, granted) highly disturbing happenings with this drug.

    I remember reading another report in which a user took this drug and beat the crap out of his girlfriend in a blackout of some sort (on erowid). Thats just so disturbing to me, and I wouldn't be able to take the drug knowing this; am I really willing to entertain even the slightest possibility of doing something like that just for a trip? If that were to happen, would I be able to ever forgive myself? (I am responsible for doing this if it were to happen, blaming the drug would neither help me forgive myself nor is it a convincing defense in any situation)

    It seems clear that the main concerns with this substance are snorting and combining with MDMA, as many have pointed out.
    All of these freak situations just seems to so incredibly out of character for any psychedelic experience it completely spooks me out of wanting to try it. I cannot imagine becoming violent on a psychedelic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aprophenea View Post
    Is it more dangerous than nbome? Because people do nbome too, knowing it is nbome and that there are some unexplained deaths from it.

    I don't understand how someone can take a potentially lethal psychedelic and not get a badtrip from knowing it might kill them though I just wouldn't be able to enjoy that kind of drug, even if the effects were nice
    Thats my thoughts exactly on this. It would be in the back of my head the whole time. The one time I tried nbome, knowing about the potentially dangerous effects totally ruined the already only semi-enjoyable experience.

    There is certainly a level of comfort I gain from taking drugs that I know to be very safe (obviously no drug is 100% safe, ever), and this is especially important when I go deeper into the psychedelic experience in which my mental state becomes more and more vulenerable and malleable.
    Last edited by Hilopsilo; 21-05-2018 at 21:04.
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    #15
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    Fair enough, I totally get not taking risks when it comes to less researched chemicals. For me personally, I won't do any NBOMes, because there are reports of people dying from pretty normal dosages. In the case of 2C-T-7, the only recorded deaths are from overdoses/combos. I'm the sort of guy who is really fascinated with psychedelics and the differences that happen subjectively with small modifications... to me it's worth taking what amounts to a small risk to see that sort of stuff for myself. Some people don't feel that need to experiment so heavily. I mean there are definitely safer psychedelics than 2C-T-7, but it doesn't stress me out to take it because I know if I do, I will take a reasonable dose and not combine it with things. Same with DOC, one of my favorite drugs. People have died or lost limbs from overdose, but I'd never do what they did (ie, dose recklessly high), and so even though it's not as safe as LSD or mushrooms or something, I have no problem taking it.

    Basically I think the T-7 deaths got way overblown, got media attention, etc. It was one of the early popular RCs and a few people got stupid and reckless and killed themselves with it, and it got branded as a super dangerous drug, when in fact it seems only marginally more dangerous than other 2C-Xs, as long as you know what you're doing and realize what is and is not safe with it.
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    #16
    Bluelighter Help?!?!'s Avatar
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    I never said you did my man. It was a generalized statement about how people blame chemicals. More of a explaination really, my bad!
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    #17
    People take drugs with much worse safety profiles. 2c-t-7 is a very, very nice substance. It's headspace can only be described as 'majestic' and others have already commented on the visuals. I've only done it a few times and probably won't touch it again because of the safety concerns but it was absolutely worth experiencing once using the appropriate caution.
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